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Thanks for the update with more information!

I think(?) swimming through the overflow during times of flood is probably the most likely source of GSF.

I personally have watched fish swim upstream in surface water flows where the water level was about 1/2 as deep as the fish's dimensions from dorsal fin to ventral fins. I do not know what compels them to swim upstream, but they work hard to do so.

I have also seen the salmon working up the fish ladders in Seattle (through the awesome viewing windows) against a pretty strong flow, so I suspect GSF could also swim up an outlet pipe if it was a direct connection from creek flows up and into a pond. (At least in that case, I understood why the salmon were so strongly compelled to swim upstream!)

It sounds like you modified your outflow pipe to create an "air gap" that invasive fish can no longer breach. Maybe you should try your Rosy Reds and SMB experiment again!

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In the subject pond for this thread, I was surprised at how quickly the fatheads got thinned out, but what really surprised me more was that I'm not sure I saw the reciprocal growth in the predator fish.

Lee and his wife do feed probably 3-4 times a week, but I would not say that I saw any fish over 100RW except for perhaps some bluegill that were already feed hogs transferred from my neighborhood pond.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted by Sunil
In the subject pond for this thread, I was surprised at how quickly the fatheads got thinned out, but what really surprised me more was that I'm not sure I saw the reciprocal growth in the predator fish.

Lee and his wife do feed probably 3-4 times a week, but I would not say that I saw any fish over 100RW except for perhaps some bluegill that were already feed hogs transferred from my neighborhood pond.

Was there ever a time period in the pond where the predator fish had a low available food supply? Perhaps, the window where they had eliminated the FHMs but before the other parts of the food chain were established or the owners started substantial feedings?

There are many threads on Pond Boss (typically from our more expert fishery people) that if you ever significantly stunt a population in a pond, then those fish never get on the right growth path.

(Just speculating, mostly because I know you track that pond fairly closely and wanted to hear your thoughts.)

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Rod, that's a tough question because this pond does not have super clear water, hence I didn't know of any species (BG, YP, SMB) having successful spawns.

I have now seen that BG did pull off a spawn, and SMB did also, but I can't say how that would have helped create forages fish for all the other mouths.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted by Sunil
Rod, that's a tough question because this pond does not have super clear water, hence I didn't know of any species (BG, YP, SMB) having successful spawns.

I have now seen that BG did pull off a spawn, and SMB did also, but I can't say how that would have helped create forages fish for all the other mouths.

Sunil, what are your thoughts on the water clarity? Is it green water or muddy? You mentioned 8" of clarity earlier this summer and there was a fish kill last year and so was just curious about the water quality. If the clarity is from bloom, I would try to dig down to the source of the nutrients.

FHM are good forage and the consumption of their energy should have been split between maintenance and growth. The standing weight of fish consuming them must have been great enough that most of the energy was used for maintenance where that converted to growth was small enough that you didn't notice the gain.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted by Sunil
Rod, that's a tough question because this pond does not have super clear water, hence I didn't know of any species (BG, YP, SMB) having successful spawns.

I have now seen that BG did pull off a spawn, and SMB did also, but I can't say how that would have helped create forages fish for all the other mouths.

Hmmmm, it would probably be tough for me to keep my RW above 100 if I wasn't able to see where my wife put my dinner!

Is this the pond that has bullheads? Agree with jpsdad, what is the source of the water murkiness? Don't you help with one pond in a suburban neighborhood? I do NOT have an immaculate lawn, but I have some neighbors that put ungodly amounts of fertilizer and water onto their lawns that look like the rough at the US Open. If that run-off is going into the pond, you might have to be able to walk across the pond on the backs of the tilapia to clear that level of nutrient-induced plant growth.

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jpsdad, this pond absolutely had/has some kind of nutrient load that, earlier in the spring/summer manifested itself as a green film covering much of the water surface. However, that all went away from mid-summer into the fall.

Interesting thought about fatheads supporting maintenance or growth. In the case of this pond, the stocking of all species of fish (SMB, YP, BG, CC, HSB) were of all different sizes at the times of stocking. So, I can't really get growth info. as we did not tag or fin-clip any fish. My comment about not seeing the growth is more anecdotal in that the fish don't seem overly plump like we see in other ponds.

Rod, no bullheads in this pond. In my neighborhood retention pond, that I manage, it really takes the run-off from the roads more so than any of the yards. So, I have not had problems with nutrient loading in the neighborhood pond.

I know that none of these answers are definitive.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted by Sunil
jpsdad, this pond absolutely had/has some kind of nutrient load that, earlier in the spring/summer manifested itself as a green film covering much of the water surface. However, that all went away from mid-summer into the fall.

Interesting thought about fatheads supporting maintenance or growth. In the case of this pond, the stocking of all species of fish (SMB, YP, BG, CC, HSB) were of all different sizes at the times of stocking. So, I can't really get growth info. as we did not tag or fin-clip any fish. My comment about not seeing the growth is more anecdotal in that the fish don't seem overly plump like we see in other ponds.

...

I know that none of these answers are definitive.

OK.

I would think that the fatheads supported both maintenance and growth at least during the period(s) when the standing weight of consumers were consuming above their maintenance requirement. The maintenance requirement is what limits growth and when the pond plus feeding provides exactly what the standing weight needs for metabolism the fish will stop growing and limit will have been reached. Mortality, eg harvest and/or natural mortality, will reduce the standing weight and thus allow individuals to continue growing. If a fish doesn't consume its needs for metabolism it will resort to mobilizing its own nutrients (IOWs it will eat itself and lose weight). Such a condition where consumption is insufficient for metabolism leads to weight decline would definitely cause low relative weight where it occurs over extended periods. On the other hand, when a fish consumes above its needs for metabolism it will grow and has the opportunity exceed standard weights if it is gaining rapidly enough. So the difference between Lee's fish and the plumper fish you noted must be sourced solely with how much energy they are eating individually.

That's why I was asking whether the source of low clarity was phytoplankton (green water) or turbidity. Individually the fish need to eat more. Perhaps Lee could feed them more if the nutrients aren't already excessive. Or do a combination of additional feeding and harvest to ensure individual fish are getting enough food to continue growing. If the clarity issue is green water then I don't think I would increase the feed rate for sure. Feeding by hand, I don't imagine he is feeding an excessive amount of feed which troubles me given earlier comments. If the feed is moderate and the low clarity caused by intense bloom then there must be a lot nutrients flowing into the pond or possibly in the native soil.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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One potential 'mistake' I may have made with Lee's pond is perhaps stocking too many fish (non-fatheads) over the course of a year.

This was because we had a fish-kill of adult Bluegill and some SMB from Hartleys, and the fact that I wasn't seeing any fish visually, or hitting feed like they used to.

So, the massive population of fatheads consumed may have been spread across too many predator fish.

Still a ton of speculation....


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Your adult bluegill and redear will chow down on fatheads, especially the fry. It's a good way to balance things out. Adding those predators should help too.

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Sunil, if you ever figure out how to know how many fish died in a fish kill please let me know. I think you made the best judgment you could so no mistake. The one thing you don't have to speculate about is the condition you would like to see and so you have a good data point there and something to work with.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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All good, I'm not in any despair about it. I think the amount of dead floaters are in this thread somewhere, but going off memory, maybe 30 adult Bluegill and 4 SMB from a stocking of 11 or so SMB (in that specific stocking of SMB; there are more stocked at other times). Earlier this year we also had about 4 dead HSB a few days after stocking; these fish were 8-9" and I think they were just too stressed. Of course, the floaters are a subset of the morts, probably.

On a better note, Lee and his wife are getting their son one of those underwater green lights for Christmas. I'm probably more excited about that then any of them!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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