Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait What's up with the scuds?

Anyone heard from PLM about scuds yet? I'm still waiting for them to respond to my email from weeks ago. I'm beginning to wonder. I know this is a real business cause I drive by it often. They have a bunch of land and I see signs around the area indicating land that they are managing for folks. Wonder why we can't get more response from these guys. I only drive by there when I go to our lake place. If it wasn't a 2 hour drive I'd run on over there just to kick them in gear. I'd bet they all duck hunt and since we're in the middle of the season that may be the excuse but geez!

Seems like Bill was telling me that they've got the incorrect species for me, but it may be the right one for you, BZ.

I wish you'd order them and see how they do.

bz - Is there a way that you could stop to see them the next time you drive by their place. Ask if they have any scuds? If you can get a few (4-10) preserve them for me in a small jar containing isopropyl alcohol. If you get that much done I will get my address to you so you can send them to me. I will get a positive identification on them. If PLM does not have any scuds in house we will have to wait until next spring.

Bill, I normally wouldn't drive up that way again until next spring when I open up the cabin in early may. They mentioned on their web site that they catch and sell the scuds in January and February I think. They said they have to be shipped the same day they catch them. So I think that means they won't have any on hand until they start netting. If I get over there at an earlier date I'll stop in and get all the info I can get. If nothing else I'll be going there when they are netting them. I do plan to buy some and try them out. How long does it take you do do an ID? My fear is that if they can't give me any until they start netting we would need some time to get an ID and if that takes too long other guys like Bruce will miss this year's crop.

bz - I can typicaly ID the scuds within 1/2 hour of when I receive them and take time to sit down and examine them under the dissection microscope. We may have to wait until next spring for you to send me a few preserved specimens. Aren't things froze up pretty tight in Minnesota during Jan and Feb?

Don't worry 'bout me. I've got the world's largest crop of water boatmen. I think most of my bluegill are about to explode from eating too much.

how do you grow the largest crop of water boatmen?

Don't allow any reproduction. I've got more invertebrates than you can shake a microscope at.

Bill, yes things are frozen solid around here in Jan. and Feb. but that's when PLM says they catch and sell scuds. So I'm assuming they net them under the ice. They probably do it during the winter so they survive better in shipment. At any rate I'm going to keep calling them and trying to figure out a way to get some. But I still don't know whether I should try to stock them in a new pond with no vegetation. Do I have to wait another year?

I would wait. I think when you talk to PLM about proper habitat that they will stress the importance of submerged vegetation esp fine leafed forms.

Just curious BZ, anyone from PLM return your calls?

Bill, would you consider bur-reed "fine leafed"?

Russ, I would not consider bur-reed fine leafed, nor would I consider it submerged vegetation. Technically it is an emergent shoreline or shallow water plant. In my opinion it has very little value as habitat or a food source for scuds.

Russ, no return call yet. Wonder what's up? I'll try again soon when some of the hunting slows down.

Bringing this one up for air to see if we have any updates. Bz, did anyone ever get back to you?

No one has returned my calls. I'll try again soon. This place is 100 miles from where I live and if I knew there was someone alive there I might take a Saturday drive.

Attention Scud enthusiasts!
Just spent some time on the phone with the owner of PLM. His name is Kyle Thomson (320-760-9355). He apologized profusely for not returning my call and anyone else he missed. He claims he personally returns all calls and emails but had never gotten a message from me and doesn't know why he missed others. The good news is that he has lots of stuff that I could use and they've recently opened a store where I can pick up anything in season. Here's the scoop on scuds:
The scuds they sell are gammarus lacustris, which are one of the larger ones, from 1/2 to 3/4 inch.
They sell quite a few of them. Prices are $85 for 20 to 40 thousand shrimp, see the web site:
http://www.habitatnow.com/store/shop/shop.php?pn_selected_category=19
Kyle gave me his cell phone number which I provide above if any of you want to reach him. He says that now is the time to order scuds. They only sell them in winter. For Bruce's sake I asked about whether these scuds will thrive in NB. He says they will thrive down to the mid US. He has clients in NC that have good luck with them. Some time real soon he is making a delivery down to Oklahoma and will be passing through Nebraska. If anyone in Iowa or Nebraska is interested in scuds he would be glad to meet you somewhere and deliver. He says that you need to stock scuds within no more than 48 hours of them being captured. He can also mail them. For those of you interested in attracting waterfoul he says that he sells most of his scuds to folks for that purpose. They are a sure bet for ducks. Kyle is a biologist and spent time with me discussing my pond objectives. He convinced me that I should let my new pond grow some vegetation this coming year and stock scuds next winter. I want to attract ducks and grow forage for my BG. His advice was to grow the scuds in my forage pond and seine them to put in BG pond. He affirmed my understanding that any type of minnow in my forage pond will pretty much kill the idea of attracting waterfoul. He talked me out of growing wild celery in my new pond given its size and depth. He suggested sago pond weed as a good aerator and food source for ducks. I'm going to order some this weekend for spring delivery. I hope some of you find a use for the scuds. Sounds like a great forage feed for BG and it might start a new trend. I like trying new things.

Thanks, bz. Can you pm me his cell number? I'll definitely try some. Good diligence on your part.

Overnight shipping to OH is as much as a gallon of scuds - approx $86. He is only shipping scuds in January and February. His helpers were out gathering scuds in MN on Friday. Kyle tells me that they can survive in somewhat warmer water than trout waters. His Gammarus compensate warmer water by using more rapid gill movements. Calcium above 30ppm, pH 7-8, and finer leafed vegetation are improtant for survival. I forgot to ask how warm his ponds get in the summer.

Bill, he mentioned to me that he talked to someone named Bill from Ohio recently, like maybe today. He wondered if that was someone from this forum. What do you think, does he know what he's talking about? I've seen one of his ponds where he raises scuds. It is a typical cattail slough with black mud bottom. My guess is that it hits close to 80 deg. on the surface with no more than 65 to 70 at the bottom. That's about what my pond runs in areas less than 6 feet deep. Mr. Willis might be interested to know that Kyle also has permits to harvest scuds in South Dakota. He says there is lots of them there.

Bruce, his cell number is in my last post above.

I mentioned this forum to Kyle and suggested he check out Pond Boss mag for advertising.

I'm really itchin to get some of these and try them out but I guess I'll have to wait. I wonder if they'd survive in my well established BG pond without all getting eaten? I'm awful tempted to try.

BZ,

Thanks for the follow up. Did Kyle have any recommendations on what types of vegetation to plant in fish ponds?


A link to a discussion on scuds;

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003348;p=2

BZ great work !! All for your PB friends.

You should think about a small isolation area in your pond. Use a 1/4 in mesh net or rigid plastic netting to fence off a good area say 20 X 20 (after ice-out). Run all the fish out as you close the area. Add some green brush/weeds and some scuds. How's that for a summer project. Document the results - efforts ,#s , growth, temps , reproduction ,etc and results. Then write a PB article.

Russ - Optimum vegetation Kyle recommended was Sago Pondweed (Potamogeton pectinatus) which he sells. Sago pondweed resembles two other pondweeds with needle-like leaves - Threadleaf and Sheathed pondweed. Sago pondweed is fairly widespread across the US east of Rocky Mtns. Leaves are 0.5-1.5mm wide and are arranged in a sort of a flat fan shape. Stems sprout from slender rhizomes that are peppered with starchy tubers which are considered a very good duck food. Sago is tolerant of low light conditions and can grow in murky waters. In clear water it can easily grow fairly deep 6-8ft and sometimes deeper.

The fine leaves and dense growth habit make it very beneficial shelter for insect larvae, crustaceans and young fish.

Some other underwater rooted vegetation species are also good habitat for scuds. Essentially anything with fine bladed leaves is acceptable scud habitat. Wood has often described seeing lots of scuds in NW Canada ponds that contain Coontail (Ceratophyllum dimersum). Other species with finely divided leaves include the Milfoils (Myriophyllum spp), Crowfoot-Water Buttercup(Ranunculus), Bladderworts (Utricularia spp), Horned pondweeds (Zannichillia palustris), Naiads - Bushy & Southern (Najas spp), and several other Pondweeds such as Algal-leaved pondweed, Water thread pondweed, Leafy pondweed, and Small pondweed (P.pusillus).

Since Chara spp (Stoneworts, Muskgrass) and Nitella spp are true algae and not macrophytic plants, I am not sure how much actual nutrient value and benefit they are to producion of scuds. However, one would expect the finely divided stems and branches to be very good shelter for scuds and the abundant finely divided surfaces should grow lots of epiphytes that would serve as food for scuds.

bz - Yes that was me who Kyle talked to. I ordered one gallon of scuds. I am going to try once again to get them established. The first two attempts failed. I blamed it on water temperature, but it could have been due to too many small panfish eliminating the brood stock. This time I am splitting the shippment and most of them (2/3) will go into a pond that only has minnows - no sport fish. Predominant plant growth right now is Chara. Other 1/3 will go into my perch pond that has good growths of underwater vegetation that provide habitat and succesful production of grass shrimp (Palaemonetes).

Sago Pondweed - Potamogeton pedctinatus see here.

http://aquaplant.tamu.edu/database/submerged_plants/sago_pondweed.htm

Ewest, you know I came up with the same idea. I was goin' nuts trying to figure out a way I could get some scuds this spring. I thought about my existing BG pond. Was laying in bed last night trying to figure this out when I thought about perhaps netting off an area. I couldn't figure out what size netting and then I figured perhaps just netting small enough to keep fish out but let the scuds wander around so that some become fish food. Then the fish can't eat them all. That's what you must have had in mind. I've got a small bay at the end of my pond with much vegetation around the edges and a mostly sunken island in the middle. It would be very easy to net off the whole bay since it only has a narrow channel connecting it to pond. Any ideas about how I could get all the fish out before closing it off? The bay is about 100 feet across with a 15 foot wide channel. One problem is that I cannot net this off until ice out and the scuds only available during the winter. Any ideas? My new pond is going to be a cool experiment too when I'm ready to put them in.
Bill, curious whether you just happened to call PLM again or did he finally get back to you from an old message? He was emphatic that he returns all his calls and had no explanation why so many went unanswered. Good luck growing the scuds. Let is know when they arrive and how it goes introducing them.

bz, do you have a transfer pump that you could lower your water level for a couple of days to put up your netting? I don't recall how big your pond is.

Thanks Bill. I'd like to hear your thoughts on whether or not sago pondweed would be a good addition to my small BG pond? As a tuber, could this become a future problem?

Contained in the link I provided above, bz wrote the following; Big news here in MN lately is that ponds stocked with FH minnows by bait dealers are ruined for waterfowl. The fatheads eat all the copepods and amphipods that ducks really like.

If you plan on stocking a minnow only pond with scuds, are you concerned about predation by the minnows or will this species of scud be large enough to avoid predation?

bz take a look at the blocking net article in the current PB issue for ideas. I just drive them out.

Russ - I don't think I would plant Sago pondweed in my recreational fish pond. This plant seems to become to dense and thus problematic to be easily managed. I am not sure how well grass carp eat it. If grass carp control it then it would be more acceptable as a pond plant.

bz - I called PLM from the information that you posted on January 26th.

Bruce, I'd have to pump my whole ponds down 3 feet to lower the water enough to make sure I had all the fish out of that bay. If I had a smaller area I could section off that might be better. Maybe I could just do a small corner of that bay and drive the fish out as I put the netting in. But still, this should have been done last fall in order to stock scuds this winter. I'm bummed.

Russ, the deal with fatheads right now in Minnesota is that the Waterfowl folks are claiming that all the bait dealers stocking natural wetlands with fatheads is ruining the habitat for waterfowl They find that if they kill off all the minnows they get something more suitable for waterfowl. So the state is now controlling very tightly who is allowed to stock fatheads. Some counties are out right banning any minnow stocking in any ponds. There is one county that is banning all fish stocking even in private ponds for the same reason. This could be over reaction but I'm just telling you what they're saying. PLM told me the same thing. If you stock fatheads in a pond say goodbye to waterfowl.

I forgot I had this. One winter I went out on the ice and drew an 8 by 8 foot grid pattern on the ice. I measured the coordinates of the pond edge at every grid intersection and I drilled holes and measured depth. Then I put all the data points into a CAD program and connected the dots. This picture is the result. Each contour line is 1 foot depth starting with the first one being 1 foot. My max depth in the section on the right is 6 feet, middle section 8 feet, section on left 4 feet. As you can see I've got a lot of structure and perhaps some areas I could section off. The total area of this pond is 1/2 acre.

Thanks BZ,

In my case, the stocking of scuds would be for BG forage. I do have minnows in the pond so I'm curious what affect that would have on scud survival.

Are you affected by the minnow ban in your area?

Russ,

Wonder if scuds would survive in the Gulf States?

I intend to stock "glass", "ghost" or "grass" shrimp in my pond. I'm looking for a cheap source right now. They are great forage and very reliable bait. They need a few weeds to survive predation, and I suspect scuds do as well.

Russ, I would sure think that a healthy population of minnows would clean up scuds pretty fast. As I understand that is the main objection to minnows in Minnesota wetlands. They eat all the living critters down to nothing. I don't know if I am affected by the minnow stocking issue. I don't think my county has banned stocking and I think that as long as I'm stocking in my own dug pond I can get a permit. But I have not applied for one yet since since I'm thinking of trying to maximize the scud population in my new pond by not stocking any minnnows.

BTW, I just ordered some sago pond weed to plant in my new pond and scuds to put into the BG pond. I decided I'm going to invest the $85 in scuds and take my chances that some will survive and reproduce in my BG pond. I avoided the large shipping costs that Bill referred to since I'm going to pick my order up directly from PLM. I'm not going to try to section off an area of pond before this stocking since I can't do this with ice around. I will observe what happens this coming summer and see if I can see scuds growing and reproducing in my pond. If they do well I'll just leave well enough alone. If they don't, I'll section off some area late next summer and get ready to restock scuds into the pond next winter. This will be interesting.

i can confirm the lack of callback from these guys.

85$ a gallon for pond water. those guys are geniuses. who needs to call back silly iowa farmers when you got the chance to make the big money

speaking of which, bought two bushels of cracked corn yesterday at teh elevator to put in my critter feeder. are you sitting down? 16.41 for two bushels and when 16.26 wasnt enough to settle i had to get out the 20$ bill.

Cliffbrook, I just talked to PLM today. I called Kyle on his cell phone in the morning and got a return call back in about 2 hours. I did order scuds from them and I told them I'd pick them up. I was confused as to where and when I needed to go to pick them up. Kyle called me right back and explained the whole process. We'll see if he delivers as promised. He claims that I'll get an email informing me when my order will be ready for pickup. They seem to be a little disorganized so I'm sure wondering. I think Bill Cody might have ordered some stuff from him too. Wondering if he's had any deliveries yet. I think if the guy can deliver he'd get some business from more than several of us.

bz or Bill,

Anything new to add to the scud discussion. Have either of you taken delivery yet??

I have not taken delivery yet. Last I talked to PLM they promised to email be a few days before I had to pick them up. They said it would be during Feb. so I'm getting a little worried as the month rolls on. They did say that they were not having a good harvest this year. I was surprised when they told me there was a direct correlation between whether the pond they're harvesting had corn or soy beans grown in the watershed this past year. Turns out that here in MN some farmers spray soy beans for aphids but there is no spraying done on corn. This runnoff can be enough to kill the scuds in a pond. Guess this gives us a hint as to how sensitive they are going to be to water quality. I'm just hoping they can find enough to fill our orders. I'll make sure to let you all know as soon as I take delivery and stock them. I have visions of harvesting 3/4 inch long shrimp from my forage pond by the thousands and getting my BG really fat on them. Then there's the thousands of wild ducks that will be dropping by this fall during duck season. I'm hopin' and dreamin'.

Oh, in the mean time I'm looking for some thoughts on where is best to stock these. Does anyone have suggestions as to whether I should stock them in the middle or edge of the pond, near the aerator or far from the aerator, etc.?
I'm going to stock some directly into my BG pond since it has well established food sources for them. I would like to take someone's advice and section off an area of pond to make sure they don't all get eaten but I can't possibly do that until the ice melts. I'm currently torn between putting them through the ice near the pond edge where there is lots of vegetation to hide in or putting them right into the aerator hole so they quickly get dispersed. Any ideas?

I would put them in the pond vegetation so they have a place to hide while they adjust to their new home, other wise they could get cleaned up fairly quickly.

bz, I agree with Shorty, any time that I have found them in numbers it has been in among vegetation. I read that they get stressed out if they cannot cling to something..... much like humans, oddly enough.

bz - I also suggest as much as possible stock in or near vegetation. I have not heard a word from PLM. They may not be able to find enough scuds until ice out. I still cannot figure out how they harvest under the ice.

Bill, I don't know how they harvest either but Kyle told me that they developed their own way of harvesting and they can only do it through the ice. I talked to him about a week ago and they were harvesting somewhere up in Northern MN where they have what he called "pristine" ponds that don't get any insecticide runnoff. They were harvesting there because of low populations in the farming regions of the state. He also said they need to certify with the DNR that their sources are free from unwanted plants or organisms so they have to go through some certification process. He did not elaborate. I asked him whether they had ponds that they stocked for harvest or if they simply looked for wild sources. He said they did some of each but it sounded like mostly wild stock. He really didn't seem to want to tell me a lot. I think you all are correct that I will try to stock in areas of heavy vegetation. One question I also have though is whether cooler water would kill the scuds. I'm thinking perhaps I'll stock them in the section of my pond that is aerated. If you've seen my "Temperature Survey" post you see that my water temps in that part of the pond are somewhat low and thus no fish hang out there. Might be a good place to stock the scuds if they can survive cooler temps.

ok, this minnesota source aint producing, or his cell phone got dropped in the water. where else we going to find these before the ice is out? anybody know where else to get scuds?

anybody ever been drenched by the asian beetles, that look like ladybugs, coming off the soybean aphid fields?

they probly wouldnt make it in my farm ponds anyway...

Our fish don't like eating regular ladybugs or the greenish asian ones - they must taste as bad as they smell.

I just got a message on Kyle's cell phone that he's on vacation until next Thursday. So I'm still wondering if I'm going to get my order. I noticed that my credit card has already been billed. Hmm.

bz, I don't think you will need to worry about cooler water temps.

Wow, is that out of your pond Wood? I hope I can get them to grow like that. Thanks very much for the pic. This has got me really fired up to get them in. Do you have fish in that pond and still get a crop like that?

Looking at the size of those scuds, it makes me wonder if a FH minnow could have any effect on them.

bz, these were from a fishless dugout used to water buffalo. Most farm dugouts here are full of them. I harvested quite a few and transplanted to my pond when I still had trout. I did not see many after that. My pond then went two years fishless and they have come back real strong. I will be harvesting more through the ice this weekend from a local perch lake. I will take some underwater video of them and their habitat and post it if you like. This particular lake has very large perch in small numbers and pike also. It is abundant weed growth also.

I'd love to see any pics you can come up with. I'm hoping to also stock these in a new pond I've just built that will have zero fish. If they thrive as well there as they have for you I'll be catching them and transfering them to feed my other pond. How do you catch them through the ice? I'd be interested in any ideas about how that can be done.

I drill a hole in the ice with my 3hp gas auger, right in a weed bed. I then put the auger back down the hole and drill as I raise it up and flood the ice with tons of them and scoop them up by hand. Last time out, we filled an ice cream pail in about a half hour.

Wow, I think if you could find a way to ship them you could make some money. I had no idea they were that easy to come by in some areas.

Got an email from Kyle today, he's got shrimp! Only problem is we're in the middle of a huge blizzard right now, up to 24 inches of snow and 30 mph wind. He says I need to pick them up now. Rats! I think I'm about to lose my chance. Wish I would have had them shipped. He doesn't think they'll be able to get more this year. I think it was Mr. Cody who ordered some, hope you get them.

Mr Condello, get your scuds ordered, habitatnow.com, order for 2008 dont ask something about 2007 sold out, give kyle a call, overnite shipping is more than the gallon of scuds, its going down this week.

you to BZ, he is going to have em next week, dont give up.

Made arrangements to pick up my scuds tomorrow. Talked to Kyle tonight and he's got a whole tank full. Turns out he keeps them in an aerated tank where they'll keep about a week. He says they are already paring up and mating right in the tank so they'll come all ready to reproduce. I'm driving to his place in the morning. My wife decided she'd like to come along which is great but I can't wait til she sees what I paid $85 for. I'm gonna get one of those funny looks with the rolling eyeballs. I can't wait. It's always fun to stock something new and watch and see it take hold. BTW, since we got 37 inches of snow in the past week I was a little concerned about my BG pond. I plowed it off a week ago after the first storm and I plowed if off today after the second storm. I'm really trying to let the sunlight get in. I can't plow the whole thing and this is the most snow cover I've had on the pond in years. I drilled a hole for the first time today. The snow was so heavy on the ice that I ended up with a gusher. The whole pond flooded. I did drop a line down and immediately began catching BG so they're still alive down there. I can't believe how fat and healthy they look for not really having much to eat all winter. I'm pumped right now.

bz a report back on the scuds would be great when you can!! Any pics ?

Got my scuds and "installed" them yesterday. I'll provide a full report and pics later when I have more time. I will say that Kyle lived up to his promises. I got my scuds, I got a zillion of them, and they seemed healthy and were mating like crazy in front of my own eyes. They swam away like banshees when I put them in the pond. I hope they are fruitfull and multiply.

bz, I will execute a toast to the longevity of your scuds when I return home from work later today.

Thanks Sunil, that will help I'm sure. So here's the story. I picked up the scuds about noon yesterday. I drove home and had them in the water by 4:30 pm. Kyle had several tanks full of scuds. He claimed this was a drop in the bucket compared to some years. I bought a gallon of them. I figured how many could you possibly fit into a gallon, several hundred maybe if you left room for them to swim around. I was surprised that a gallon of scuds is a gallon of scuds before the water is added. And Kyle was generous with the gallon. I would say I got between 1 and 2 gallons of critter. This was a solid mass of living stuff. He then added some water and sealed it up. I don't know how many there were but judging by how many fit into a cup as I scooped them into the pond there surely were 10's of thousands. I was surprised that they can survive this way. In the 4 hours it took me to get them into the pond I maybe lost 50 or so but the rest swam immediately down under the ice. See the pics below. First one is of the aerator near where I installed. I drilled 5 holes around the perimeter of the pond close to shore right in the weeds. I put some scuds down each hole.

Next is picture of the bag of critters.

Next is picture of the bag in the water getting temperature acclamated.

Next is picture of a few scuds in hand.


Kyle gave me plenty of advice on how to "install" them as he calls it. He also emailed me today just to see how it went. I was impressed with Kyle, he seems to really know his stuff. You can't imagine the contraption he invented for harvesting these buggers. I'll tell more later.

bz - tell us more about how he harvests the scuds, all of this talk about scuds has me thinking I need to check my brothers wetland next winter for scuds.

He says that the trick to catching lots of them is to wait until the oxygen level on the pond bottom gets so low that the scuds rise up under the ice where they get more oxygen. I suppose it makes sense that the O2 level near the bottom drops as winter goes on and the upper areas that get more light may have higher O2 levels. Perhaps one of the experts can comment on that. Anyway, once he finds them up near the surface he has a contraption he built that reaches down under the ice and swings a net around in a circle just below the ice. I would think one could devise a way to do this by hand. It might take a while to get many thousands of them but if you only need enough for yourself I would think you could make it work. I see that Wood has a method using his auger that I'd be tempted to try.

Thanks bz! I'm thinking Wood's auger method would work for checking to see how prelvelant scuds might be in his wetland. Does anyone have any thoughts on just running a seine net through his wetland after it warms up? I'm thinking the waterfowl might have the scuds thinned down pretty good by then.

Shorty, if you run into any scuds count me in for a harvest party.

No problem Bruce, the type of scuds in his wetland are probably limited to the types whose eggs are dessicant resistant since his wetland does goe dry periodically. Only some species of scuds lay eggs that can survive drought conditions. Doug is talking with some of the entemologists he works with, one of whom is a very avid BG fly fisherman, the biggest scuds he has seen in NE were in the Loup river which are 3/4" long. Doug also thinks it wouldn't be very hard to develop a mass production protocal for scuds once a particualr variety has been selected. He is going to talk with a guy that developed a protocal for raising stable flys in large quantities for research. It might be as simple as getting a dozen scuds and using a fine mesh blocking net along the edge of the pond to get them to reproduce in large numbers. A trough or tank could also work too in raising scuds. For me there is lots to learn before getting started though.

If I can find some of my scuds later this year I plan to block off or build an enclosure where I will try to encourage them to grow. I'd be interested in what you guys think might do the trick here. I would think that an enclosure that has lots of fine leafy material for them to hang on to and feed would work. What might that material be? I'm thinking something like an old brush from a car wash. Anybody know where to get one of those? Or maybe just this year's old christmas tree?

bz - I'll get back to you on some of those questions once my brother has had the chance to pick the brains of some of the entomologists he works with. Right now we still have a lot to learn.

there is alot of critters in them ponds but these look like good critters to be getting in the mix

bz, magneticly directed nets?

anybody ever put vegatable oil in the chainsaw to cut thru the ice?

Here is some intersting information, Bruce, notice where this study was done?

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/OAS/oas_pdf/v58/p16_21.pdf

and a picture:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/graphics/photos/feb00/k8451-1.htm

Shorty what a find !!!!

I bet you that Bruce is already out at that pond in Burwell NE trying to work a deal with the owner !!

ewest, Pawnee Lake is very close to Bruce's ponds, Burwell is a couple of hours away up near the Loup River. Ideally I would like to find locally a larger variety of scud, 3/4" long, with an orange body if possible. If those are hard to find, this type will work, I bet we already have this type in our ponds around here. Now I just need to find out what kinds might be in the wetlands in the rain water basin, most of those have no fish to prey on the scuds, just waterfowl in the spring and fall. Did I mention that my nephew said they had 3 million ducks on my brothers wetland last week. Checking for scuds there might be better later this summer when the water level has dropped and the scuds have had a chance to replenish themselves.

Shorty, the attraction by ducks is one of the reasons I decided to try to grow scuds in my forage pond rather than minnows. The forage is for BG. I'd also like to have a million ducks on that pond in the fall.

Cliffbrook, on your question of chain saw oil. I don't know why cooking oil wouldn't work. It's not the best lubricant but good enough for a chain I would think. You also can buy biodegradeable chain saw oil. I saw it on a web site that sells mushroom growing stuff. These people mix mushroom spores in the oil and then they make cuts in logs to seed the log with spores. Kind of weird but it works I guess. I plan to start growing some of my own mushrooms down by the pond this year.

bz if those mushrooms turn up missing don't blame the BG , ducks or scuds. Better keep a close eye on them as they tend to walk off when you least expect it.

Shorty I figure that Bruce won't try to kidnap the scuds from a public lake , but a private pond is ripe for a deal.

Geez, no questions on why I am looking for the "orange" body types of scuds?





The orange body scuds contain carotene, which gives trout a reddish color to their flesh. I have eaten trout out of different bodies of water, some had the darker flesh, some didn't, the ones with the darker flesh are definately much better eating.

SHORTY !! You don't have RT in with those smart SMB do you ? You know those SMB planted subliminal messages in you brain because they like to eat both scuds and scud fed RT !! Plus your SMB want an orange tint to them to scare Sunil's SMB at the Penn vs NE challange

Nope, no RT yet, but there maybe some winter put and take stockings in the future. The orange colored scuds will likely be easier for the fish to find and prey on the scuds, and the carotene is just added brain food for my SMB for the upcoming showdown with Sunil's SMB.

Bruce, it is very likely there is an abundance of scuds in my brothers wetland, the ducks seem to prefer it to all other wetalnds in the area, it happens to be one of those rare never been plowed wetlands with huge amount of biodiversity.

Here is an intersting read on lesser scaup and amphipods:

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-01242006-093828/

If scuds are not prevelent in his wetland I would be very suprised. It could also be a great place to stock scuds and then harvest them later.

Here is another read.
http://www.epa.gov/owow/wetlands/wqual/pph2_4.html

So, scud hunting is likely best in fishless wetlands that have deep enough water year round.

My scuds are in the mail now. I will report back on the results later.

to discuss mushrooms at the pond, i think we need a new topic, i would be interested in that topic

my scuds are coming also. whats next?

has anybody tried raising the fresh water shrimp big enough for a pond boss to eat?

BZ,

I sent you a PM.

Shorty & ewest, after reading about your idea to feed brain food to your smallies, I sent an email to my smallies to see what they thought.

Their reply is somewhat shocking, as follows:
"Sunil, we've known about Shorty's plan for some time now. Many months back, we sent a covert-spy smallie to Shorty's pond. Getting to Shorty's pond was not as difficult as we had anticipated; with the aid of Google Earth and some low altitude photo's of Shorty's pond on the forum, we were able to get our operative placed with minimal effort. Our rogue smallie will make every effort to blend in with Shorty's smallies and gain acceptance. Due to his high intellect, he will most surely be selected to participate in the competition. Once the competition begins, the rogue smallie will start to give incorrect answers while feigning extreme nervousness. This will be done in order to throw the match. There are many other things that we are doing, however, we choose to not share those with you at this time, nor any time in the future. By the way, we have solved the earth's energy problems."

I sent a reply as follows:
"Smallmouth, recall your operative at once. I am only interested in a fair, above-board competition. I expect a full report of ALL activities that have occured since Fall '06. More importantly, I expect full royalities on all technology developments."

Within a few seconds, I received their reply:
"Sunil, we no longer report to you, nor do you own us. Leave us alone or suffer grave consequences..."

There was far more to this final email, however, it's far too profane to post here. The basic twist was that I'm a moron, and I have no claim to anything because I have not been to my pond in over (3) months.

It's a sad day here.

You should tell them you have a pump ,a backhoe and a sharp knife !!

Maybe I'll tell them I ordered some Rotenone also.

Sunil - I only inform you of this since you no longer have any control over your smallies. My smallies did inform me some time ago that a rouge smallie did show up that just didn’t blend in well, they promptly turned him over to the red ears for some agressive interrogation. He didn’t stand a chance and spilled the beans about this covert plot to cheat on the upcoming competition. Little do your smallies know, but my RES were also able to convert him over to a secret double agent, all of the information he has been emailing back to your smallies has been bogus for quite some time now. Little do they know how ill prepared they will be for the upcoming competition. BTW – he likes his new home so much that he has no plans of returning to PA, he is now forever a Big Red fan now. :p

The name's Pond, James Pond.

"BTW – he likes his new home so much that he has no plans of returning to PA, he is now forever a Big Red fan now."

Hey Man! That's poaching.

Thanks for the reply BZ! I'll be watching for updates on how your scuds do this year.


Russ

i got and installed my scuds yesterday. there were only as many swimmers as floaters but in the end the sinkers seemed to be coming to life after laying on the bottom as each time i checked the sinkers there were more and more movement.

My scuds were in similar condition as cliffbrook's. I had plenty to provide broodstock for this spring. I split my shipment between two ponds. A pond with good weed growth and YP as predators and a pond with just shiners present but weed growth is presently limited to just Chara. I still question the ability of Gammarus lacustris to tolerate 86F-92F waters. Time will tell the rest of this story.

So am I to understand from your statements Bill and Cliffbrook that only half of yours survived the trip? That's not that good is it? If so I wonder how Kyle packed them. When I picked mine up I expected he would fill the bag with pure oxygen like they do with minnows when they'll be in the bag a while. He did not do this for me. I would think when you are shipping them pure oxygen would be a must. If he didn't do this for you I bet it would help survival rate don't you think? I hope they grow well for you both. I'll report back on mine whether I see any evidence of them surviving and/or reproducing as the year goes on. I still have 18 inches of ice but it has been near 50 degrees the last two days. I usually see ice out about mid April.

i think they were in like suspended animation. i installed into shallow water near, not thru a hole in the ice. 99% were imobile on the bottom of the bag and laid on bottom after they a short time with bag in the water and were dumped out. i checked back some time later and they were having more and more movement. as you said bz he is catching them when they are in low O2 environment. my guess was he was not adding O2 and you confirmed that guess.

so they were lethargic but i think it will be ok.

the next day had huge runoff as the spring thaw it bigtime.

i think there may have been more than one type as some were definitely orange. otherwise bills photos are right on. but doesnt show the pile in the bag. maybe i have one of those

If Kyle put close to a gallon of scuds in the bag/bucket there was not a whole lot of room for water. When I got my ship container open, I immediately put medium-strong fine bubbling aeration just under the surface. Water temp on arrival was 50F. Then I gradually added a small amount of ice and began replacing the water in the container with fresh oxygenated water of the same temperature during the next 20 min to slowly bring the water temp down to 40F. While doing this I began removing small netfulls of scuds and put them in other buckets of fresh identical temp water. When water reached 40F, I began distributing scuds to various parts of my ponds. Complete transfer took me 2.5 hrs.

I held back one net full of scuds and kept them in fresh aerated water overnight. In the morning at 50F they were pretty active. Losses may not have been as high as I first suspected. Possibly only 10%-20% loss based on what was active from that netful the next day.

CB, you are correct that I said these are caught under low O2 conditions but then Kyle had them in an aerated tank where he keeps them prior to shipping. They were very lively in that tank. I think these are all the same kind of critter. If you look closely you will see that the orange ones are the totally dead ones. They very quickly turn orange after death. All of mine that were not orange recovered and swam away.
Bill, glad you had success. I followed a procedure similar to yours for introducing them to the pond. I had separated some out to watch them and wished I would have had an algea filled aquarium to put some in. I think they would have been fun to watch. Next time I have some handy I'm going to plan ahead and get an aqaurium started and see if I can raise a few indoors.

regarding the orange indicating death, maybe

here are a few pics of the spring melt runoff experienced 2 days in a row




2nd photo is 12" siphon with about 2 foot head

i have no idea if any scuds made it thru that washing machine

first photo is one of 3 into upper and lower is one of 2 outof upper and it was upper where scuds were installed