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#92761 10/21/06 10:44 PM
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Anyone heard from PLM about scuds yet? I'm still waiting for them to respond to my email from weeks ago. I'm beginning to wonder. I know this is a real business cause I drive by it often. They have a bunch of land and I see signs around the area indicating land that they are managing for folks. Wonder why we can't get more response from these guys. I only drive by there when I go to our lake place. If it wasn't a 2 hour drive I'd run on over there just to kick them in gear. I'd bet they all duck hunt and since we're in the middle of the season that may be the excuse but geez!


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Seems like Bill was telling me that they've got the incorrect species for me, but it may be the right one for you, BZ.

I wish you'd order them and see how they do. ;\)


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bz - Is there a way that you could stop to see them the next time you drive by their place. Ask if they have any scuds? If you can get a few (4-10) preserve them for me in a small jar containing isopropyl alcohol. If you get that much done I will get my address to you so you can send them to me. I will get a positive identification on them. If PLM does not have any scuds in house we will have to wait until next spring.


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Bill, I normally wouldn't drive up that way again until next spring when I open up the cabin in early may. They mentioned on their web site that they catch and sell the scuds in January and February I think. They said they have to be shipped the same day they catch them. So I think that means they won't have any on hand until they start netting. If I get over there at an earlier date I'll stop in and get all the info I can get. If nothing else I'll be going there when they are netting them. I do plan to buy some and try them out. How long does it take you do do an ID? My fear is that if they can't give me any until they start netting we would need some time to get an ID and if that takes too long other guys like Bruce will miss this year's crop.


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bz - I can typicaly ID the scuds within 1/2 hour of when I receive them and take time to sit down and examine them under the dissection microscope. We may have to wait until next spring for you to send me a few preserved specimens. Aren't things froze up pretty tight in Minnesota during Jan and Feb?


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 Quote:
Originally posted by bz:
...if that takes too long other guys like Bruce will miss this year's crop.
Don't worry 'bout me. I've got the world's largest crop of water boatmen. I think most of my bluegill are about to explode from eating too much.


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how do you grow the largest crop of water boatmen?

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Don't allow any reproduction. I've got more invertebrates than you can shake a microscope at.


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Bill, yes things are frozen solid around here in Jan. and Feb. but that's when PLM says they catch and sell scuds. So I'm assuming they net them under the ice. They probably do it during the winter so they survive better in shipment. At any rate I'm going to keep calling them and trying to figure out a way to get some. But I still don't know whether I should try to stock them in a new pond with no vegetation. Do I have to wait another year?


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I would wait. I think when you talk to PLM about proper habitat that they will stress the importance of submerged vegetation esp fine leafed forms.


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Just curious BZ, anyone from PLM return your calls?

Bill, would you consider bur-reed "fine leafed"?

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Russ, I would not consider bur-reed fine leafed, nor would I consider it submerged vegetation. Technically it is an emergent shoreline or shallow water plant. In my opinion it has very little value as habitat or a food source for scuds.


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Russ, no return call yet. Wonder what's up? I'll try again soon when some of the hunting slows down.


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Bringing this one up for air to see if we have any updates. Bz, did anyone ever get back to you?

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No one has returned my calls. I'll try again soon. This place is 100 miles from where I live and if I knew there was someone alive there I might take a Saturday drive.


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Attention Scud enthusiasts!
Just spent some time on the phone with the owner of PLM. His name is Kyle Thomson (320-760-9355). He apologized profusely for not returning my call and anyone else he missed. He claims he personally returns all calls and emails but had never gotten a message from me and doesn't know why he missed others. The good news is that he has lots of stuff that I could use and they've recently opened a store where I can pick up anything in season. Here's the scoop on scuds:
The scuds they sell are gammarus lacustris, which are one of the larger ones, from 1/2 to 3/4 inch.
They sell quite a few of them. Prices are $85 for 20 to 40 thousand shrimp, see the web site:
http://www.habitatnow.com/store/shop/shop.php?pn_selected_category=19
Kyle gave me his cell phone number which I provide above if any of you want to reach him. He says that now is the time to order scuds. They only sell them in winter. For Bruce's sake I asked about whether these scuds will thrive in NB. He says they will thrive down to the mid US. He has clients in NC that have good luck with them. Some time real soon he is making a delivery down to Oklahoma and will be passing through Nebraska. If anyone in Iowa or Nebraska is interested in scuds he would be glad to meet you somewhere and deliver. He says that you need to stock scuds within no more than 48 hours of them being captured. He can also mail them. For those of you interested in attracting waterfoul he says that he sells most of his scuds to folks for that purpose. They are a sure bet for ducks. Kyle is a biologist and spent time with me discussing my pond objectives. He convinced me that I should let my new pond grow some vegetation this coming year and stock scuds next winter. I want to attract ducks and grow forage for my BG. His advice was to grow the scuds in my forage pond and seine them to put in BG pond. He affirmed my understanding that any type of minnow in my forage pond will pretty much kill the idea of attracting waterfoul. He talked me out of growing wild celery in my new pond given its size and depth. He suggested sago pond weed as a good aerator and food source for ducks. I'm going to order some this weekend for spring delivery. I hope some of you find a use for the scuds. Sounds like a great forage feed for BG and it might start a new trend. I like trying new things.


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Thanks, bz. Can you pm me his cell number? I'll definitely try some. Good diligence on your part.


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Overnight shipping to OH is as much as a gallon of scuds - approx $86. He is only shipping scuds in January and February. His helpers were out gathering scuds in MN on Friday. Kyle tells me that they can survive in somewhat warmer water than trout waters. His Gammarus compensate warmer water by using more rapid gill movements. Calcium above 30ppm, pH 7-8, and finer leafed vegetation are improtant for survival. I forgot to ask how warm his ponds get in the summer.


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Bill, he mentioned to me that he talked to someone named Bill from Ohio recently, like maybe today. He wondered if that was someone from this forum. What do you think, does he know what he's talking about? I've seen one of his ponds where he raises scuds. It is a typical cattail slough with black mud bottom. My guess is that it hits close to 80 deg. on the surface with no more than 65 to 70 at the bottom. That's about what my pond runs in areas less than 6 feet deep. Mr. Willis might be interested to know that Kyle also has permits to harvest scuds in South Dakota. He says there is lots of them there.

Bruce, his cell number is in my last post above.

I mentioned this forum to Kyle and suggested he check out Pond Boss mag for advertising.

I'm really itchin to get some of these and try them out but I guess I'll have to wait. I wonder if they'd survive in my well established BG pond without all getting eaten? I'm awful tempted to try.


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BZ,

Thanks for the follow up. Did Kyle have any recommendations on what types of vegetation to plant in fish ponds?


A link to a discussion on scuds;

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003348;p=2

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BZ great work !! All for your PB friends. \:D

You should think about a small isolation area in your pond. Use a 1/4 in mesh net or rigid plastic netting to fence off a good area say 20 X 20 (after ice-out). Run all the fish out as you close the area. Add some green brush/weeds and some scuds. How's that for a summer project. Document the results - efforts ,#s , growth, temps , reproduction ,etc and results. Then write a PB article. \:\)
















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Russ - Optimum vegetation Kyle recommended was Sago Pondweed (Potamogeton pectinatus) which he sells. Sago pondweed resembles two other pondweeds with needle-like leaves - Threadleaf and Sheathed pondweed. Sago pondweed is fairly widespread across the US east of Rocky Mtns. Leaves are 0.5-1.5mm wide and are arranged in a sort of a flat fan shape. Stems sprout from slender rhizomes that are peppered with starchy tubers which are considered a very good duck food. Sago is tolerant of low light conditions and can grow in murky waters. In clear water it can easily grow fairly deep 6-8ft and sometimes deeper.

The fine leaves and dense growth habit make it very beneficial shelter for insect larvae, crustaceans and young fish.

Some other underwater rooted vegetation species are also good habitat for scuds. Essentially anything with fine bladed leaves is acceptable scud habitat. Wood has often described seeing lots of scuds in NW Canada ponds that contain Coontail (Ceratophyllum dimersum). Other species with finely divided leaves include the Milfoils (Myriophyllum spp), Crowfoot-Water Buttercup(Ranunculus), Bladderworts (Utricularia spp), Horned pondweeds (Zannichillia palustris), Naiads - Bushy & Southern (Najas spp), and several other Pondweeds such as Algal-leaved pondweed, Water thread pondweed, Leafy pondweed, and Small pondweed (P.pusillus).

Since Chara spp (Stoneworts, Muskgrass) and Nitella spp are true algae and not macrophytic plants, I am not sure how much actual nutrient value and benefit they are to producion of scuds. However, one would expect the finely divided stems and branches to be very good shelter for scuds and the abundant finely divided surfaces should grow lots of epiphytes that would serve as food for scuds.

bz - Yes that was me who Kyle talked to. I ordered one gallon of scuds. I am going to try once again to get them established. The first two attempts failed. I blamed it on water temperature, but it could have been due to too many small panfish eliminating the brood stock. This time I am splitting the shippment and most of them (2/3) will go into a pond that only has minnows - no sport fish. Predominant plant growth right now is Chara. Other 1/3 will go into my perch pond that has good growths of underwater vegetation that provide habitat and succesful production of grass shrimp (Palaemonetes).


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Sago Pondweed - Potamogeton pedctinatus see here.

http://aquaplant.tamu.edu/database/submerged_plants/sago_pondweed.htm
















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Ewest, you know I came up with the same idea. I was goin' nuts trying to figure out a way I could get some scuds this spring. I thought about my existing BG pond. Was laying in bed last night trying to figure this out when I thought about perhaps netting off an area. I couldn't figure out what size netting and then I figured perhaps just netting small enough to keep fish out but let the scuds wander around so that some become fish food. Then the fish can't eat them all. That's what you must have had in mind. I've got a small bay at the end of my pond with much vegetation around the edges and a mostly sunken island in the middle. It would be very easy to net off the whole bay since it only has a narrow channel connecting it to pond. Any ideas about how I could get all the fish out before closing it off? The bay is about 100 feet across with a 15 foot wide channel. One problem is that I cannot net this off until ice out and the scuds only available during the winter. Any ideas? My new pond is going to be a cool experiment too when I'm ready to put them in.
Bill, curious whether you just happened to call PLM again or did he finally get back to you from an old message? He was emphatic that he returns all his calls and had no explanation why so many went unanswered. Good luck growing the scuds. Let is know when they arrive and how it goes introducing them.


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bz, do you have a transfer pump that you could lower your water level for a couple of days to put up your netting? I don't recall how big your pond is.


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Thanks Bill. I'd like to hear your thoughts on whether or not sago pondweed would be a good addition to my small BG pond? As a tuber, could this become a future problem?

Contained in the link I provided above, bz wrote the following; Big news here in MN lately is that ponds stocked with FH minnows by bait dealers are ruined for waterfowl. The fatheads eat all the copepods and amphipods that ducks really like.

If you plan on stocking a minnow only pond with scuds, are you concerned about predation by the minnows or will this species of scud be large enough to avoid predation?

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bz take a look at the blocking net article in the current PB issue for ideas. I just drive them out.
















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Russ - I don't think I would plant Sago pondweed in my recreational fish pond. This plant seems to become to dense and thus problematic to be easily managed. I am not sure how well grass carp eat it. If grass carp control it then it would be more acceptable as a pond plant.

bz - I called PLM from the information that you posted on January 26th.


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Bruce, I'd have to pump my whole ponds down 3 feet to lower the water enough to make sure I had all the fish out of that bay. If I had a smaller area I could section off that might be better. Maybe I could just do a small corner of that bay and drive the fish out as I put the netting in. But still, this should have been done last fall in order to stock scuds this winter. I'm bummed.

Russ, the deal with fatheads right now in Minnesota is that the Waterfowl folks are claiming that all the bait dealers stocking natural wetlands with fatheads is ruining the habitat for waterfowl They find that if they kill off all the minnows they get something more suitable for waterfowl. So the state is now controlling very tightly who is allowed to stock fatheads. Some counties are out right banning any minnow stocking in any ponds. There is one county that is banning all fish stocking even in private ponds for the same reason. This could be over reaction but I'm just telling you what they're saying. PLM told me the same thing. If you stock fatheads in a pond say goodbye to waterfowl.


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I forgot I had this. One winter I went out on the ice and drew an 8 by 8 foot grid pattern on the ice. I measured the coordinates of the pond edge at every grid intersection and I drilled holes and measured depth. Then I put all the data points into a CAD program and connected the dots. This picture is the result. Each contour line is 1 foot depth starting with the first one being 1 foot. My max depth in the section on the right is 6 feet, middle section 8 feet, section on left 4 feet. As you can see I've got a lot of structure and perhaps some areas I could section off. The total area of this pond is 1/2 acre.




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Thanks BZ,

In my case, the stocking of scuds would be for BG forage. I do have minnows in the pond so I'm curious what affect that would have on scud survival.

Are you affected by the minnow ban in your area?

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Russ,

Wonder if scuds would survive in the Gulf States?

I intend to stock "glass", "ghost" or "grass" shrimp in my pond. I'm looking for a cheap source right now. They are great forage and very reliable bait. They need a few weeds to survive predation, and I suspect scuds do as well.

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Russ, I would sure think that a healthy population of minnows would clean up scuds pretty fast. As I understand that is the main objection to minnows in Minnesota wetlands. They eat all the living critters down to nothing. I don't know if I am affected by the minnow stocking issue. I don't think my county has banned stocking and I think that as long as I'm stocking in my own dug pond I can get a permit. But I have not applied for one yet since since I'm thinking of trying to maximize the scud population in my new pond by not stocking any minnnows.

BTW, I just ordered some sago pond weed to plant in my new pond and scuds to put into the BG pond. I decided I'm going to invest the $85 in scuds and take my chances that some will survive and reproduce in my BG pond. I avoided the large shipping costs that Bill referred to since I'm going to pick my order up directly from PLM. I'm not going to try to section off an area of pond before this stocking since I can't do this with ice around. I will observe what happens this coming summer and see if I can see scuds growing and reproducing in my pond. If they do well I'll just leave well enough alone. If they don't, I'll section off some area late next summer and get ready to restock scuds into the pond next winter. This will be interesting.


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i can confirm the lack of callback from these guys.

85$ a gallon for pond water. those guys are geniuses. who needs to call back silly iowa farmers when you got the chance to make the big money

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speaking of which, bought two bushels of cracked corn yesterday at teh elevator to put in my critter feeder. are you sitting down? 16.41 for two bushels and when 16.26 wasnt enough to settle i had to get out the 20$ bill.

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Cliffbrook, I just talked to PLM today. I called Kyle on his cell phone in the morning and got a return call back in about 2 hours. I did order scuds from them and I told them I'd pick them up. I was confused as to where and when I needed to go to pick them up. Kyle called me right back and explained the whole process. We'll see if he delivers as promised. He claims that I'll get an email informing me when my order will be ready for pickup. They seem to be a little disorganized so I'm sure wondering. I think Bill Cody might have ordered some stuff from him too. Wondering if he's had any deliveries yet. I think if the guy can deliver he'd get some business from more than several of us.


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bz or Bill,

Anything new to add to the scud discussion. Have either of you taken delivery yet??

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I have not taken delivery yet. Last I talked to PLM they promised to email be a few days before I had to pick them up. They said it would be during Feb. so I'm getting a little worried as the month rolls on. They did say that they were not having a good harvest this year. I was surprised when they told me there was a direct correlation between whether the pond they're harvesting had corn or soy beans grown in the watershed this past year. Turns out that here in MN some farmers spray soy beans for aphids but there is no spraying done on corn. This runnoff can be enough to kill the scuds in a pond. Guess this gives us a hint as to how sensitive they are going to be to water quality. I'm just hoping they can find enough to fill our orders. I'll make sure to let you all know as soon as I take delivery and stock them. I have visions of harvesting 3/4 inch long shrimp from my forage pond by the thousands and getting my BG really fat on them. Then there's the thousands of wild ducks that will be dropping by this fall during duck season. I'm hopin' and dreamin'.


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Oh, in the mean time I'm looking for some thoughts on where is best to stock these. Does anyone have suggestions as to whether I should stock them in the middle or edge of the pond, near the aerator or far from the aerator, etc.?
I'm going to stock some directly into my BG pond since it has well established food sources for them. I would like to take someone's advice and section off an area of pond to make sure they don't all get eaten but I can't possibly do that until the ice melts. I'm currently torn between putting them through the ice near the pond edge where there is lots of vegetation to hide in or putting them right into the aerator hole so they quickly get dispersed. Any ideas?


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I would put them in the pond vegetation so they have a place to hide while they adjust to their new home, other wise they could get cleaned up fairly quickly.



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bz, I agree with Shorty, any time that I have found them in numbers it has been in among vegetation. I read that they get stressed out if they cannot cling to something..... much like humans, oddly enough.

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bz - I also suggest as much as possible stock in or near vegetation. I have not heard a word from PLM. They may not be able to find enough scuds until ice out. I still cannot figure out how they harvest under the ice.


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Bill, I don't know how they harvest either but Kyle told me that they developed their own way of harvesting and they can only do it through the ice. I talked to him about a week ago and they were harvesting somewhere up in Northern MN where they have what he called "pristine" ponds that don't get any insecticide runnoff. They were harvesting there because of low populations in the farming regions of the state. He also said they need to certify with the DNR that their sources are free from unwanted plants or organisms so they have to go through some certification process. He did not elaborate. I asked him whether they had ponds that they stocked for harvest or if they simply looked for wild sources. He said they did some of each but it sounded like mostly wild stock. He really didn't seem to want to tell me a lot. I think you all are correct that I will try to stock in areas of heavy vegetation. One question I also have though is whether cooler water would kill the scuds. I'm thinking perhaps I'll stock them in the section of my pond that is aerated. If you've seen my "Temperature Survey" post you see that my water temps in that part of the pond are somewhat low and thus no fish hang out there. Might be a good place to stock the scuds if they can survive cooler temps.


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ok, this minnesota source aint producing, or his cell phone got dropped in the water. where else we going to find these before the ice is out? anybody know where else to get scuds?

anybody ever been drenched by the asian beetles, that look like ladybugs, coming off the soybean aphid fields?

they probly wouldnt make it in my farm ponds anyway...

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Our fish don't like eating regular ladybugs or the greenish asian ones - they must taste as bad as they smell.


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I just got a message on Kyle's cell phone that he's on vacation until next Thursday. So I'm still wondering if I'm going to get my order. I noticed that my credit card has already been billed. Hmm.


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bz, I don't think you will need to worry about cooler water temps.



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Wow, is that out of your pond Wood? I hope I can get them to grow like that. Thanks very much for the pic. This has got me really fired up to get them in. Do you have fish in that pond and still get a crop like that?


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Looking at the size of those scuds, it makes me wonder if a FH minnow could have any effect on them.

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bz, these were from a fishless dugout used to water buffalo. Most farm dugouts here are full of them. I harvested quite a few and transplanted to my pond when I still had trout. I did not see many after that. My pond then went two years fishless and they have come back real strong. I will be harvesting more through the ice this weekend from a local perch lake. I will take some underwater video of them and their habitat and post it if you like. This particular lake has very large perch in small numbers and pike also. It is abundant weed growth also.


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I'd love to see any pics you can come up with. I'm hoping to also stock these in a new pond I've just built that will have zero fish. If they thrive as well there as they have for you I'll be catching them and transfering them to feed my other pond. How do you catch them through the ice? I'd be interested in any ideas about how that can be done.


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I drill a hole in the ice with my 3hp gas auger, right in a weed bed. I then put the auger back down the hole and drill as I raise it up and flood the ice with tons of them and scoop them up by hand. Last time out, we filled an ice cream pail in about a half hour.

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Wow, I think if you could find a way to ship them you could make some money. I had no idea they were that easy to come by in some areas.


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Got an email from Kyle today, he's got shrimp! Only problem is we're in the middle of a huge blizzard right now, up to 24 inches of snow and 30 mph wind. He says I need to pick them up now. Rats! I think I'm about to lose my chance. Wish I would have had them shipped. He doesn't think they'll be able to get more this year. I think it was Mr. Cody who ordered some, hope you get them.


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Mr Condello, get your scuds ordered, habitatnow.com, order for 2008 dont ask something about 2007 sold out, give kyle a call, overnite shipping is more than the gallon of scuds, its going down this week.

you to BZ, he is going to have em next week, dont give up.

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Made arrangements to pick up my scuds tomorrow. Talked to Kyle tonight and he's got a whole tank full. Turns out he keeps them in an aerated tank where they'll keep about a week. He says they are already paring up and mating right in the tank so they'll come all ready to reproduce. I'm driving to his place in the morning. My wife decided she'd like to come along which is great but I can't wait til she sees what I paid $85 for. I'm gonna get one of those funny looks with the rolling eyeballs. I can't wait. It's always fun to stock something new and watch and see it take hold. BTW, since we got 37 inches of snow in the past week I was a little concerned about my BG pond. I plowed it off a week ago after the first storm and I plowed if off today after the second storm. I'm really trying to let the sunlight get in. I can't plow the whole thing and this is the most snow cover I've had on the pond in years. I drilled a hole for the first time today. The snow was so heavy on the ice that I ended up with a gusher. The whole pond flooded. I did drop a line down and immediately began catching BG so they're still alive down there. I can't believe how fat and healthy they look for not really having much to eat all winter. I'm pumped right now.


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bz a report back on the scuds would be great when you can!! Any pics ? \:\)
















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Got my scuds and "installed" them yesterday. I'll provide a full report and pics later when I have more time. I will say that Kyle lived up to his promises. I got my scuds, I got a zillion of them, and they seemed healthy and were mating like crazy in front of my own eyes. They swam away like banshees when I put them in the pond. I hope they are fruitfull and multiply.


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bz, I will execute a toast to the longevity of your scuds when I return home from work later today.


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Thanks Sunil, that will help I'm sure. So here's the story. I picked up the scuds about noon yesterday. I drove home and had them in the water by 4:30 pm. Kyle had several tanks full of scuds. He claimed this was a drop in the bucket compared to some years. I bought a gallon of them. I figured how many could you possibly fit into a gallon, several hundred maybe if you left room for them to swim around. I was surprised that a gallon of scuds is a gallon of scuds before the water is added. And Kyle was generous with the gallon. I would say I got between 1 and 2 gallons of critter. This was a solid mass of living stuff. He then added some water and sealed it up. I don't know how many there were but judging by how many fit into a cup as I scooped them into the pond there surely were 10's of thousands. I was surprised that they can survive this way. In the 4 hours it took me to get them into the pond I maybe lost 50 or so but the rest swam immediately down under the ice. See the pics below. First one is of the aerator near where I installed. I drilled 5 holes around the perimeter of the pond close to shore right in the weeds. I put some scuds down each hole.

Next is picture of the bag of critters.

Next is picture of the bag in the water getting temperature acclamated.

Next is picture of a few scuds in hand.


Kyle gave me plenty of advice on how to "install" them as he calls it. He also emailed me today just to see how it went. I was impressed with Kyle, he seems to really know his stuff. You can't imagine the contraption he invented for harvesting these buggers. I'll tell more later.


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bz - tell us more about how he harvests the scuds, all of this talk about scuds has me thinking I need to check my brothers wetland next winter for scuds. \:\)



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He says that the trick to catching lots of them is to wait until the oxygen level on the pond bottom gets so low that the scuds rise up under the ice where they get more oxygen. I suppose it makes sense that the O2 level near the bottom drops as winter goes on and the upper areas that get more light may have higher O2 levels. Perhaps one of the experts can comment on that. Anyway, once he finds them up near the surface he has a contraption he built that reaches down under the ice and swings a net around in a circle just below the ice. I would think one could devise a way to do this by hand. It might take a while to get many thousands of them but if you only need enough for yourself I would think you could make it work. I see that Wood has a method using his auger that I'd be tempted to try.


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Thanks bz! I'm thinking Wood's auger method would work for checking to see how prelvelant scuds might be in his wetland. Does anyone have any thoughts on just running a seine net through his wetland after it warms up? I'm thinking the waterfowl might have the scuds thinned down pretty good by then.



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Shorty, if you run into any scuds count me in for a harvest party.


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No problem Bruce, the type of scuds in his wetland are probably limited to the types whose eggs are dessicant resistant since his wetland does goe dry periodically. Only some species of scuds lay eggs that can survive drought conditions. Doug is talking with some of the entemologists he works with, one of whom is a very avid BG fly fisherman, the biggest scuds he has seen in NE were in the Loup river which are 3/4" long. \:\) Doug also thinks it wouldn't be very hard to develop a mass production protocal for scuds once a particualr variety has been selected. He is going to talk with a guy that developed a protocal for raising stable flys in large quantities for research. It might be as simple as getting a dozen scuds and using a fine mesh blocking net along the edge of the pond to get them to reproduce in large numbers. A trough or tank could also work too in raising scuds. For me there is lots to learn before getting started though.



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If I can find some of my scuds later this year I plan to block off or build an enclosure where I will try to encourage them to grow. I'd be interested in what you guys think might do the trick here. I would think that an enclosure that has lots of fine leafy material for them to hang on to and feed would work. What might that material be? I'm thinking something like an old brush from a car wash. Anybody know where to get one of those? Or maybe just this year's old christmas tree?


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bz - I'll get back to you on some of those questions once my brother has had the chance to pick the brains of some of the entomologists he works with. Right now we still have a lot to learn.



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there is alot of critters in them ponds but these look like good critters to be getting in the mix

bz, magneticly directed nets?

anybody ever put vegatable oil in the chainsaw to cut thru the ice?

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Here is some intersting information, Bruce, notice where this study was done?

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/OAS/oas_pdf/v58/p16_21.pdf

and a picture:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/graphics/photos/feb00/k8451-1.htm



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Shorty what a find !!!! \:\)

I bet you that Bruce is already out at that pond in Burwell NE trying to work a deal with the owner !!
















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ewest, Pawnee Lake is very close to Bruce's ponds, Burwell is a couple of hours away up near the Loup River. Ideally I would like to find locally a larger variety of scud, 3/4" long, with an orange body if possible. If those are hard to find, this type will work, I bet we already have this type in our ponds around here. Now I just need to find out what kinds might be in the wetlands in the rain water basin, most of those have no fish to prey on the scuds, just waterfowl in the spring and fall. Did I mention that my nephew said they had 3 million ducks on my brothers wetland last week. \:D Checking for scuds there might be better later this summer when the water level has dropped and the scuds have had a chance to replenish themselves.



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Shorty, the attraction by ducks is one of the reasons I decided to try to grow scuds in my forage pond rather than minnows. The forage is for BG. I'd also like to have a million ducks on that pond in the fall.

Cliffbrook, on your question of chain saw oil. I don't know why cooking oil wouldn't work. It's not the best lubricant but good enough for a chain I would think. You also can buy biodegradeable chain saw oil. I saw it on a web site that sells mushroom growing stuff. These people mix mushroom spores in the oil and then they make cuts in logs to seed the log with spores. Kind of weird but it works I guess. I plan to start growing some of my own mushrooms down by the pond this year.


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bz if those mushrooms turn up missing don't blame the BG , ducks or scuds. Better keep a close eye on them as they tend to walk off when you least expect it.

Shorty I figure that Bruce won't try to kidnap the scuds from a public lake , but a private pond is ripe for a deal. \:D
















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Geez, no questions on why I am looking for the "orange" body types of scuds?





The orange body scuds contain carotene, which gives trout a reddish color to their flesh. I have eaten trout out of different bodies of water, some had the darker flesh, some didn't, the ones with the darker flesh are definately much better eating. ;\)



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SHORTY !! You don't have RT in with those smart SMB do you ? You know those SMB planted subliminal messages in you brain because they like to eat both scuds and scud fed RT !! Plus your SMB want an orange tint to them to scare Sunil's SMB at the Penn vs NE challange \:D
















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Nope, no RT yet, but there maybe some winter put and take stockings in the future. \:\) The orange colored scuds will likely be easier for the fish to find and prey on the scuds, and the carotene is just added brain food for my SMB for the upcoming showdown with Sunil's SMB. \:D



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Bruce, it is very likely there is an abundance of scuds in my brothers wetland, the ducks seem to prefer it to all other wetalnds in the area, it happens to be one of those rare never been plowed wetlands with huge amount of biodiversity.

Here is an intersting read on lesser scaup and amphipods:

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-01242006-093828/

 Quote:
Wetland use by scaup was positively correlated with amphipod densities throughout the upper-Midwest, indicating a preference for amphipods. Amphipod densities were markedly lower (1 12 m-3) and scaup were consuming fewer amphipods in the upper-Midwest relative to historical records. Scaup probably must spend more time searching for food within and among wetlands than they did historically. Fish occurred in 74, 78 84, and 31 45% of wetlands in Iowa, Minnesota, and North Dakota, respectively, whereas historically they occurred in only 10 20% of wetlands. Amphipod densities were negatively correlated to fish densities and sedimentation.

If scuds are not prevelent in his wetland I would be very suprised. It could also be a great place to stock scuds and then harvest them later. ;\)

Here is another read.
http://www.epa.gov/owow/wetlands/wqual/pph2_4.html

 Quote:
Although invertebrates occur in wetlands everywhere, prairie wetlands support notably great numbers. This is because prairie wetlands have especially rich soils, slow water turnover times, and seasonally fluctuating water tables, all of which support the high levels of algal production and spatially complex vegetative stands that are important to invertebrates.

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In some cases, waterbirds appear to select wetlands having the greatest densities of invertebrates (Talent et al. 1982).
So, scud hunting is likely best in fishless wetlands that have deep enough water year round. ;\)



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My scuds are in the mail now. I will report back on the results later.


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to discuss mushrooms at the pond, i think we need a new topic, i would be interested in that topic

my scuds are coming also. whats next?

has anybody tried raising the fresh water shrimp big enough for a pond boss to eat?

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BZ,

I sent you a PM.

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Shorty & ewest, after reading about your idea to feed brain food to your smallies, I sent an email to my smallies to see what they thought.

Their reply is somewhat shocking, as follows:
"Sunil, we've known about Shorty's plan for some time now. Many months back, we sent a covert-spy smallie to Shorty's pond. Getting to Shorty's pond was not as difficult as we had anticipated; with the aid of Google Earth and some low altitude photo's of Shorty's pond on the forum, we were able to get our operative placed with minimal effort. Our rogue smallie will make every effort to blend in with Shorty's smallies and gain acceptance. Due to his high intellect, he will most surely be selected to participate in the competition. Once the competition begins, the rogue smallie will start to give incorrect answers while feigning extreme nervousness. This will be done in order to throw the match. There are many other things that we are doing, however, we choose to not share those with you at this time, nor any time in the future. By the way, we have solved the earth's energy problems."

I sent a reply as follows:
"Smallmouth, recall your operative at once. I am only interested in a fair, above-board competition. I expect a full report of ALL activities that have occured since Fall '06. More importantly, I expect full royalities on all technology developments."

Within a few seconds, I received their reply:
"Sunil, we no longer report to you, nor do you own us. Leave us alone or suffer grave consequences..."

There was far more to this final email, however, it's far too profane to post here. The basic twist was that I'm a moron, and I have no claim to anything because I have not been to my pond in over (3) months.

It's a sad day here.


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\:D \:D \:\)

You should tell them you have a pump ,a backhoe and a sharp knife !!
















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Maybe I'll tell them I ordered some Rotenone also.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Sunil - I only inform you of this since you no longer have any control over your smallies. My smallies did inform me some time ago that a rouge smallie did show up that just didnt blend in well, they promptly turned him over to the red ears for some agressive interrogation. He didnt stand a chance and spilled the beans about this covert plot to cheat on the upcoming competition. Little do your smallies know, but my RES were also able to convert him over to a secret double agent, all of the information he has been emailing back to your smallies has been bogus for quite some time now. Little do they know how ill prepared they will be for the upcoming competition. BTW he likes his new home so much that he has no plans of returning to PA, he is now forever a Big Red fan now. \:D :p



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The name's Pond, James Pond.



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"BTW he likes his new home so much that he has no plans of returning to PA, he is now forever a Big Red fan now."

Hey Man! That's poaching.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
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Thanks for the reply BZ! I'll be watching for updates on how your scuds do this year.


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i got and installed my scuds yesterday. there were only as many swimmers as floaters but in the end the sinkers seemed to be coming to life after laying on the bottom as each time i checked the sinkers there were more and more movement.

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My scuds were in similar condition as cliffbrook's. I had plenty to provide broodstock for this spring. I split my shipment between two ponds. A pond with good weed growth and YP as predators and a pond with just shiners present but weed growth is presently limited to just Chara. I still question the ability of Gammarus lacustris to tolerate 86F-92F waters. Time will tell the rest of this story.



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So am I to understand from your statements Bill and Cliffbrook that only half of yours survived the trip? That's not that good is it? If so I wonder how Kyle packed them. When I picked mine up I expected he would fill the bag with pure oxygen like they do with minnows when they'll be in the bag a while. He did not do this for me. I would think when you are shipping them pure oxygen would be a must. If he didn't do this for you I bet it would help survival rate don't you think? I hope they grow well for you both. I'll report back on mine whether I see any evidence of them surviving and/or reproducing as the year goes on. I still have 18 inches of ice but it has been near 50 degrees the last two days. I usually see ice out about mid April.


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i think they were in like suspended animation. i installed into shallow water near, not thru a hole in the ice. 99% were imobile on the bottom of the bag and laid on bottom after they a short time with bag in the water and were dumped out. i checked back some time later and they were having more and more movement. as you said bz he is catching them when they are in low O2 environment. my guess was he was not adding O2 and you confirmed that guess.

so they were lethargic but i think it will be ok.

the next day had huge runoff as the spring thaw it bigtime.

i think there may have been more than one type as some were definitely orange. otherwise bills photos are right on. but doesnt show the pile in the bag. maybe i have one of those

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If Kyle put close to a gallon of scuds in the bag/bucket there was not a whole lot of room for water. When I got my ship container open, I immediately put medium-strong fine bubbling aeration just under the surface. Water temp on arrival was 50F. Then I gradually added a small amount of ice and began replacing the water in the container with fresh oxygenated water of the same temperature during the next 20 min to slowly bring the water temp down to 40F. While doing this I began removing small netfulls of scuds and put them in other buckets of fresh identical temp water. When water reached 40F, I began distributing scuds to various parts of my ponds. Complete transfer took me 2.5 hrs.

I held back one net full of scuds and kept them in fresh aerated water overnight. In the morning at 50F they were pretty active. Losses may not have been as high as I first suspected. Possibly only 10%-20% loss based on what was active from that netful the next day.


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CB, you are correct that I said these are caught under low O2 conditions but then Kyle had them in an aerated tank where he keeps them prior to shipping. They were very lively in that tank. I think these are all the same kind of critter. If you look closely you will see that the orange ones are the totally dead ones. They very quickly turn orange after death. All of mine that were not orange recovered and swam away.
Bill, glad you had success. I followed a procedure similar to yours for introducing them to the pond. I had separated some out to watch them and wished I would have had an algea filled aquarium to put some in. I think they would have been fun to watch. Next time I have some handy I'm going to plan ahead and get an aqaurium started and see if I can raise a few indoors.


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regarding the orange indicating death, maybe

here are a few pics of the spring melt runoff experienced 2 days in a row




2nd photo is 12" siphon with about 2 foot head

i have no idea if any scuds made it thru that washing machine

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first photo is one of 3 into upper and lower is one of 2 outof upper and it was upper where scuds were installed

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CB, I noticed you have some tilled fields adjacent to your pond. I'll pass on a comment I got from Kyle. He said to beware if you have drainage coming off of ag land into your pond. If there are any insecticides used on those fields they will most certainly wipe out most amphipods. He said that here in MN he has his best years in ponds adjacent to farm fields when corn is the crop. He has his worst years when soy beans are planted. The reason is that the farmers sometimes use insecticides on soy beans to kill aphids. Apparently it doesn't kill them all because they do come back but kills many of them. Good luck.


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yea yo're right but you got to dance with the girl you brought. silt is a big problem too. we will see.

have you ever seen the asian beetles coming off the bean fields? they probly kill alot of bugs too.

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Best of luck CB. Hey, Iowa has a special place in my heart since I was in high school. Used to spend a lot of time near Marshalltown hunting pheasants. I really enjoyed those trips. Didn't have a dog so we used to head down that way whenever there was new snow. Didn't need a dog after a fresh snow. Is Marshalltown in Marshall county?


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thats right. with the iowa river. i know where to find sometimes huge flocks of pheasants. geese are all making funny noises and motions now on every waterhole and mudpuddle

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Silly Question here, I can't seeem to find anywhere in NY area that sells scuds and or when they are best to put into pond. Anyone have any ideas? I have used Yahoo and Google to search for the answer to my question but I get anything from cold war - Iran/Iraq use of Scuds to what I am looking for but nothing around wher to buy them and when it is best to add them to a pond.

I think my YP would just love them and maybe even the SMB. I have enjoyed this thread and did not know about Scuds until I read about them here.

Thanks again!


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I've searched for these for several years and finally found this source you read about here. I did find one other source but I don't think it was in bulk and I can't remember where it was. Do a search on fresh water shrimp or on the scientific name (gamarus? check earlier in this thread) instead of "scuds". You'll find more that way.


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BZ, Thanks I did searches under scuds, under freshwater shrimp,under sceintific name,...etc I am impressed you found the one you did after looking further for one near me. Does you supplier only sell them over the winter? It seemed so when I looked at the web site.

If anyone else finds any more sites or folks sellingscuds I would be very interested. Thanks again!


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Eric,

After BZ posted the PLM website, I went for a visit and noticed that they had an east coast delivery. If BZ, Cliffbrook and Cody have success with scuds this coming year, I thought about adding some to my small ponds. With this in mind, I sent Kyle (from PLM) a note and asked him if the "east coast delivery" included a route through NY. Based on his reply, it would not be a problem. We didn't go into details on his exact route but I would suspect that I would have to meet him at some predetermined location. My understanding is he only delivers during the winter months.

I do not know of any local sellers but a check of local hobby fish stores may give you some leads.

Russ

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Russ, I found some local places that sell scuds to schools and labs for experiments. But they are at a rate of $6.50 for 10 scuds. At that rate I would run out of money before getting enough to establish them in my pond.

If I have to wait until next winter to add them I guess I will. I was just hoping to establish them sometime this year. Ever since finding out about them, my YP have been screaming for them!!!! \:D \:D


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Eric - have you thought about building a "scud cage"? You could use a fine wire mesh that would keep the breeding adults in but let the recently hatched YOY scuds escape through the mesh. This would protect your adult breeders from predation.

This would be a modified a version of a fish cage, have you had a chance to read the article on fish cages in this months Pond Boss? \:\)

Here is another source of scuds, they are located on Ft. Collins CO:

http://www.cfiglobal.com/Aquaticfeeds.html

Bruce, road trip?



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Thanks Shorty,

I contacted them and will see how it works out. As for the fish cage or scud cage Idea, I like that idea!! Just have to get some Scuds to even start out the process.

Stay tuned and I will let you know what I find out.


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Here is a message sent to me from Kyle at Habitat NOW. It contains some direct information about how he handles and ships the scuds. I sent Kyle a link to this discussion about his scuds. And this was his reply to me.

Kyle says: "" Also, I noted on the bottom that I have a couple of gallons left that I can ship out if anyone is still looking. Thanks for the info...alot of good reading.""


""1 gallon of shrimp - not like the fella from Iowa stated, we strain the shrimp from the water and then pour relatively pure shrimp into a 1 gallon measurement...we then add the water back after measuring the gallon of shrimp. We are not selling you water. There is obviously some wetness to the shrimp but we try hard to make sure you get alot of shrimp.""

""Shipping - We add enough water to manage for the trip...it comes out to about 2 gallons of water to 1 gallon of shrimp. These are bagged and packaged with O2. BZ didn't have far to go with his shrimp so I just bagged them up.""

""* The more water we add...the higher your shipping cost is since you will be paying to ship water rather than shrimp. (smile)""

""* There are expected casualties. There are many variables that are out of my control once the shrimp leave my store. How they are handled, how long it takes to deliver, did the driver get lost, did they put the shrimp on the wrong truck...etc., etc. I hate these variables but there is nothing that we can do about them but accept the expected loss of some shrimp.""

""* Shrimp are only dead if they turn bright orange. The ones laying at the bottom that are not moving but are gray in color are alive...they just need some TLC to get going. From the reports back it sounds like our shipments are doing pretty good so far. Even if you lose 5,000 shrimp in a gallon, you still have around 15,000 or more still alive.""

""* Shrimp are sensitive to low O2, high Ph, silt and pesticides, etc.. Most critters are sensitive to all of these as well. I would then look at solutions within the watershed to reduce these problems. The fella with the farm field photo...I would recommend some CCRP CP21 and CP27/28 buffers strips through USDA. These programs pay VERY well and you will have enough money to buy some more shrimp. (smile)""

""* Fathead minnows are tough on shrimp when the shrimp are in the young stage...they are small and readily eaten. Not so much when they are bigger. That is also the importance of vegetation to allow cover for the young to survive and developed. If you have fatheads in your pond, you can still have shrimp...just don't have expectations for high survivals...but you will have some.""

""After trying to read all of the posts...it obvious there is alot of passion in your activities. Very enjoyable to see that.""

""I have a couple of gallons of shrimp in the tanks right now that I could ship out Wednesday for Thursday delivery or ship Thursday for Friday delivery. Go to the PLM web site at www.HabitatNOW.com and then to the Habitat Outlet Store to check the pricing for shrimp and delivery to your location. If that looks reasonable, call me at 320-760-9355. If there are other questions, I will be happy to discuss.""

I will say that there were a tremendous amount of scuds in my shipping conatiner. Many more that I received from other places. You do get your money's worth when you buy scuds from him.


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You can tell the guy is educated by his writing.


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BZ or Bill Cody,

Care to share any updates you have with the success/failure with your scuds?

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Russ, I haven't seen any or went sampling for the scuds since I put them in. I am doubtful of their survival. I may do a sampling this week to see if any survived long enough to reproduce.


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bill, how do you sample?

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I haven't seen a scud either. I figured this summer as I netted out many pounds of duck weed I'd see some scuds mixed in. I looked a few times but never found any. I also doubt that they will survive in my bluegill pond. No other forage ever survives. I would also like to know how one does a sampling. I don't even know where to look.


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Hey everyone...Kyle here from PLM...hope the new year is well.

I enjoyed reading the entire string...except for the beginning about not being able to get ahold of me. I am just as puzzled about...but here I am anyway.

I just wanted to provide you with a courtesy post letting you know that we will be starting our Freshwater Shrimp harvest very soon. If you are interested in shrimp or have any questions, please visit the link below for additional information. Feel free to contact me with any additional questions...please pass this information on to others that may be interested as well.

http://www.habitatnow.com/store/shop/shop.php?pn_selected_category=19

Here are some details...

$85 per gallon...20 to 40 "thousand" shrimp per gallon (it's ALLOT of shrimp)
Shipping is usually $30 to $95 per gallon depending on where you want it shipped.
FREE pick up if you want to pick your order up at our Glenwood, MN store.
Shrimp are shipped "next day" delivery if you chose to have them shipped.
Shrimp must be installed within 48 hours...24 hours for shipping and 24 hours for you to put them in your pond.
* If you open the bag when you receive them and put them into a larger container (large cooler for example) and put more freshwater or air on them, they might do well for several days or longer...just don't let them pile up and suffocate each other.
* ALL deliveries will be coordinated with you to assure that you are around to receive your order and are prepared to install it.

I may deliver personally...currently I have a route developing going out to Oregon (states to stop at along the way will be selected based on orders) and another going Missouri (states to stop at along the way will be selected based on orders). Personal delivery assures that I will be focusing on delivering shrimp and not everyone else's packages and as well making sure that nothing gets stuck in a warehouse somewhere or lost in shipping. * Other routes may be developed based on other orders. Feel free to email me with questions.

We will also be harvesting Sago and Celery in the spring after "ice-out". Sorry...we are out of wild rice until harvest in September 2008. You may place orders for rice as it is a first secured - first shipped option.

Again, if you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at info@HabitatNOW.com

Thanks!

Kyle, PLM
http://www.HabitatNOW.com

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BZ, Bill Cody or Cliffbrook,

Are there any updates to add to this? I held off placing an order in hopes of hearing some success storeis from you fellas.

Russ

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I have not seen a scud (Gammarus) since I released them last February. I will sample for them again this spring, but I am not real optimistic. I think my water gets too warm in the summer for them to survive or complete their life cycle. My pond has abundant plants and the freshwater shrimp (Palaemonetes) survive quite well.

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Russ
I called Kyle back a spell when i had a free day in MN and wanted to visit, he was busy and leaving to deliver scuds to Miseri, i arranged for a girlfriend to meet him in Ames. I think he had a good year for scuds, as when i got home I had millions of wigglers, more wiggly than last year, i had a few catastrophyies getting them installed in several ponds and didnt get to a couple of ponds i was hoping toreach in the snow. Last year delivery was later in the year (?) and had a huge runoff event immediately after installation. This year I have much better expectations despite my rough handling. The packaging i recieved them in last year was first class. Kyle is reliable supplier and the scuds look like they be tender morsels to a whole bunch of critters. So it depends and we shall see. I thnk they are worth a try but you should get on his list early. He had his reminder here in early Jan adn i think it was end of Feb when he was making his delivery trip to miseri.

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if you put the critter in this picture on a dime with plenty of room left, its pretty close to what the scuds look like

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...1&ct=image&cd=3

dont know what all the link is about but the thumbnail is dead ringer for a scud, but it isnt wiggling

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Thank you both for the replies. Please continue to post updates.

Russ

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If I locate any Gammarid scuds this spring in my ponds I will post results. However, I am doubtful.


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Bill, if you have some aquatic vegetation and FA mixed in with some tree leaves try using a pitchfork to sample for them. Here is the variety I found in our pond this last weekend. Scuds can trapped in the FA pretty easily as you pull it out.





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I still haven't seen a scud in my pond. My ice is just starting to open up around my aerator and the opening is getting near to shore. I was hoping that my aerator would wash some up on the ice so I've been watching for that. None so far. As soon as the ice melts over to shore I will try to fork some vegetation out and search for critters. I still have a forage pond that is low on water after last years dry spell. Vegetation has been starting to grow in it. This is where I planted my sago last year that I got from Kyle. The sago grew great until the pond almost dried up. I hope it comes back this year. My plan is a year from now, with plenty of vegetation growing, I will stock this pond with scuds and see if they grow. This pond has zero fish in it so my hope is that the scuds will thrive to attract waterfowl and if I can find a way to harvest them I'll transfer them to the BG pond. I'll be watching this thread for your reports.


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Finally got to the point where I have some shoreline thawed out. I want out today with a fork and scooped about a dozen places along shore. I scooped up as much algea, dead duckweed, and other plant material as I could. I searched through it and found nothing. Not even a stone fly or other larvae. No scuds! I'm going to keep looking as more area thaws. I'm not hopeful they survived in my pond though since I have many fish and not much submerged vegetation. I think I need to wait until my forage pond has good vegetation cover and stock it with scuds. I'll try that next year if things go well with water levels and vegetation.


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Anyone have an update?


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Hey guys...hope all is well.

We started harvesting shrimp about two weeks ago and, if the weather holds out, we will be harvesting thru February and maybe even into March.

I am pretty sure we will have a delivery route going thru WI, Ohio and east...then continue down south to NC, SC and GA. I don't have enough orders right now to set up a route from MN south thru IA, MO, etc.

I have had a pretty good response from customers on their shrimp...especially the trout guys that have really like the shrimp for adding weight and color to the trout. Here is just one comment and contact from a customer...let me know if you have any questions at all.

Kyle, PLM
www.HabitatNOW.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Joe_Cross@irco.com
To: HabitatNOW.com
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 5:25 PM
Subject: RE: Freshwater Shrimp

Kyle,

Things are good here. Thanks for asking.

Unless something tragic happens in the lake, I think I will be good for the foreseeable future on my scud population. I cant pick up any plant life out of the lake without seeing a ton of scuds on it. Thanks again and if you ever need a testimonial, just let me know!

Hope all is well in your part of the country as well.

Sincerely,
Joe

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What part of the country does Joe live in?

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Land Dr.: Is there any info about scuds or shrimp on your site?


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I don't know where he's getting those shipping estimates but I think he's really underselling the cost of shipping.

I don't know if this has been covered yet but PLM scuds are not unreasonably priced but they are crazy expensive to ship.

As an example, I just tried to ordering 1/2 gallon (the smallest amount they sell) of scuds. For them to be delivered from Minnesota to Pennsylvania, it will cost $340.

Below is the current price breakdown I'm seeing:

Your Final Total
Total For Products: $ 75.00
Shipping & Handling: $ 339.56 (to Indiana it is $307)
Tax (MN orders & pickup only): $ 0.00
Grand Total: $ 414.56

I can never justify paying 3-4x more for shipping than I do the product itself. Just know that before you buy scuds from PLM. Shipping is the real killer.

On the other hand, Goliad (who I believe sells Gammarus scuds) charges $45 for 1 culture (1000 scuds) and shipping is $50. Not great but a heck of a lot more reasonable than what PLM charges to ship

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Hello.

When you will receive them you will have to be careful with the water changes otherwise you will lose them and your money

Make sure he doesn't send you Hyalella Azteca.
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I'm sure those costs were accurate for 2011, when he made that post.


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Originally Posted by azteca
Hello.

When you will receive them you will have to be careful with the water changes otherwise you will lose them and your money

Make sure he doesn't send you Hyalella Azteca.
A+

Why against Hyalella Azteca stocking ?


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Hello.

Because I already ordered from a company and they send me Azteca.

I thrown them in the garbage, I don't quarantine for what I already have.

There is a big difference between the Azteca and the Gammarus Fasciatus or Lacustris.
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Originally Posted by azteca
Hello.

Because I already ordered from a company and they send me Azteca.

I thrown them in the garbage, I don't quarantine for what I already have.

There is a big difference between the Azteca and the Gammarus Fasciatus or Lacustris.
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Could you go into more details on differences ?


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Hello.

It's the difference in size, in the river near me there are Gammarus fasciatus.

Here are some measurements, I don't know if they are very precise but it seems fair.

Gammarus Fasciatus 15mm
Azteca 5-8mm

The Gammarus Lacustris would be larger than the Fasciatus, but here he is in the St-Lawrence river.

Of course there are other differences, but I am not an expert.

What interest me is the size.
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I have had people request that I ship fish to them. I tried doing it last year, and the cost and more importantly the time associated with doing it made me put on the website that I am NOT going to ship fish any more.

It takes about 45 min to an hour to catch, count, bag, add O2 to the bag, then double bag, then source a Styrofoam cooler, source a cardboard box to put the cooler in, source a cold pack and make the label. Then it's another 1/2 hour (and 25 miles) each way drive to the UPS center to ship them.

I quickly found out that with the way shipping companies are run today, it's pointless to ship them any other way than next day air, for delivery by noon the next day.

My question to the people that think shipping and handling is too much, what would you charge for 2 hours of your time plus 50 miles? Then add in the shipping supply cost and the actual shipping cost (plus overhead to pay for taxes, etc.)?


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esshup,

Thanks for all of the explicit info!

I suspect your time to do 200 fish is not much more than your time to do 20 fish. However, the shipping cost/fish would be drastically different.

There are certainly people in the market to purchase fish that have no clue as to the effort to raise and ship fish. If I was a fish supplier, I might even have a spot on my web page listing the factors you listed above. People are pissed to see a $400 shipping estimate when they get shipping for free on an inanimate item from Amazon. If they see the inputs, then they might better understand the actual associated costs.

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Originally Posted by FishinRod
esshup,

Thanks for all of the explicit info!

I suspect your time to do 200 fish is not much more than your time to do 20 fish. However, the shipping cost/fish would be drastically different.

There are certainly people in the market to purchase fish that have no clue as to the effort to raise and ship fish. If I was a fish supplier, I might even have a spot on my web page listing the factors you listed above. People are pissed to see a $400 shipping estimate when they get shipping for free on an inanimate item from Amazon. If they see the inputs, then they might better understand the actual associated costs.

I had a guy that lived on an island off of the southern coast of Florida order 2 rainbow trout in August and was very unhappy that I wouldn't ship them....... I sell the trout at around 1# each, I have no idea what it would have cost to ship them.

You are correct on not much more time, BUT if they aren't eyeballs and aholes size wise, I don't think I could ship 200 in one box.....


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