Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations How fast do fish get "wise"????

Since you are insisting on making this an argument, are you implying that a turtle would rather starve than be exposed to the sound of a shotgun blast? Or is it just that the turtle has other things he'd like to eat and has gone on to greener, less noisy pastures?

Thanks Bruce that's exactly what I needed to hear and makes sense also. I can live with that. Now lets see, one spreadsheet to tract hours of fishing compared to catch rates, one spread sheet to track forage base mass versus fishing success, one spread sheet to track spreadsheet interaction time versus number of episodes of dementia.....

OK, one more time.....

Here's my contention, stripped of all fishing references.

1. Organisms respond to what is known as "Classical Conditioning".

2. Positive reinforcment improves the likelihood that the organism will repeat a particular behavior.

3. Negative reinforcement decreases the likelihood that an organisms will repeat a particular behavior.

All I'm saying is this and I'll make it in bold so it's easy to understand.

Actual food is positive reinforcement. Be it bluegills or pellets. This is why an organism's ability to be conditioned is different when exposing them to a food item like a real pellet, than if you are exposing them to a non-food item like a fishing lure. I'm not saying, nor will I ever say that you are wrong by saying that fish elicit decreased response to things they have been punished for.

I hate it when I agree with someone and they still want to argue about it.

Argument? Not me....just trying to understand the huge differences in described behavior.

I'm certainly not a turtle expert, never intend to be one, and would not dare try to explain the turtles' thinking...my only reason in giving that analogy was to say that positive reinforcement, even in the hundreds at the feeders, can be undone very quickly in the pond behavior I have observed...but I'm not a PHD either, just a regular plain old East Texas bumpkin who has trouble understanding why I should fish at fish feeders when I am after fish growth.

Nobody said you "should" fish at a feeder. Just merely contending that I'm not an idiot for doing so.

Keep in mind that interwoven to the fabric of this question is just how much a pellet imitation looks like an actual pellet. Not all pellet imitations are created equal. If a fish can tell the difference between a Mepps spinner and a minnow, then he can probably tell the difference between an actual pellet or a piece of brown fuzz.

If a fish is automatically discouraged from ever eating a pellet if you catch him on a real pellet fly, then what happens if a fly-fisherman catches a bluegill on a virtually perfect midge fly? Does that mean the fish never eats another real midge?

My HSB quit taking the PomPom flies years ago because it just doesn't look that much like a pellet. It worked for a while. But even after repeated captures with a PomPom they still vigorously ate pellets every day. How do we explain that? Probably because there's a difference in the way they look.

After a few rounds from a pellet rifle, the larger turtles view the feedings with curiosity from a distance. The small ones dig right back in. Is this not similar to all animal behavior?

I think not identifying the PHD as a PHD in psychology caused a series of miscommunications. I finally surmised it after reading several posts.

I believe you can nearly always catch a fish on it's common forage, particularty if the forage is struggling(on a hook with limited mobility). I never cease to catch large BG on 2 inch shiners(in abundance in my pond), or bass or CC on 2 to 3 inch BG, or shiners.

This is a great point that hasn't been adequately addressed. The larger more experienced animals become cautious much more readily. Is this because they learned to be more cautious, or that they were more cautious to begin with, and that's how they got big???

Excellent observation.

By the way, welcome to the forum Jack_Flash1949.

:D

Okay, I check on this post this morning, then go drive tractor for 3-4 hours hauling round bales. Not the most intellectually challenging way to spend time, so my mind wanders. I was thinking of trying to put together info on fishing rates and catchability into a spreadsheet to see if it could be mathematically modelled, was willing to get as involved as far as 4th order Runga-Kutta analysis, when 3 things stopped me:

1) Those darn bumpy fields hurt my keester,

2) the implied threat to JHAP's fragile sanity (or whatever he exhibits occasionally that passes for sanity), and

3) the immensely huge amount of data that would be needed even to obtain a partial solution for one species of fish, in one size pond, in one climate.

Just considering the phenomena of uncaught fish being deterred from biting by another fish being caught, look at all the different ways these fish could be alerted to problems in piscatorial paradise:

-sight (seeing the other fish caught)
-sound (hearing same)
-smell (the presence of fear-o-mones in the water released by the struggling fish)
-taste (blood in the water)
-touch, i.e. lateral line sense (feeling the arrhythmic vibrations from the distressed fish)
-social affects (Uncle Charlie doesn't show up for the snooker game after stating he was going to bite a purple worm)

and I'm sure I've missed some.

To even have a chance of truly grasping the facts of this problem, we'd need to have a series of identical ponds at the same location, with identical fish populations, and then vary items such as food supply, fishing times and rates, fishing methods, etc. Maybe study 6 to 12 such ponds for a year or two and you might have a solution valid only for that species in that size pond and that particular climate - next to worthless for trying to imply anything about different species, different size waters, different fishing methods or duty cycles, given the variations we have in those factors.

Like Cody says, it all depends.

P.S. If fishing the feeder is wrong, I don't wanna be right! I hand feed over about 20% of the area of my pond, and for the last 2 months that's the only place I've fished, for an average of 2 hours per week. BG Catch rates (that's what I've been targetting) have stayed high, and even the average size BG caught has stayed about the same (Although size variation is down, as larger fish have gotten harder to catch since the initial spawn completed, and smaller fish seem to be getting eaten. So I'm catching mostly 6" - 7" BG now, instead of 4" - 8" BG 2 months ago. That's OK, I can handle letting the big BG have the rest of the Summer off. And who needs 4 inchers?) So 2 hours per week must be under the magic threshold for BG, for my pond.

But don't worry, JHAP, that's as intricate as I'm gonna get.

Theo in addition you would need to measure was each fish acting out of :

-fear
-hunger
-anger
-dominate position
-submission

and I am sure there are others.

Way to many variables. That is why it is called fishing. Good thing each person gets to decide how , when , where and what to fish with.

Interesting how these are the same ways we humans act. For example, a study of my behavior would find that after I get married next weekend, I will move from acting in a "dominant position" to one of "submission," like most mature males under the same circumstances. Hunger is always a problem for me, as well.

Theo is right. There are so many variables, and testing would be very difficult. From my experience, the CCs condition the easiest, but like Theo's are the fastest to "dumb down" again. For me, it seems that the LMB have taken the longest to condition to a particular lure or to the presence of our little boat, but have maintained that "memory" ever since.

I didn't say a thing.

Here is a situation I find interesting. I seldom fish any more, sort of like Heybud, I like to sit around and watch what is going on. Anyway, I get orders for fish from friends, usually at around dinner time, and I usually don't have any bait, so I use bread. That is how I found that the tilapia will hit the crust. After catching the number I need I throw the remaining bread in the water. If the slice is whole or nearly so the pacu will eat it. Half or smaller and the tilapia will get it. Early on, 16 months ago, I caught a few pacu on bread, then none. Nearly the same as the carp and the red/white bobber.

Lesson learned from this stimulating discussion is RESPECT - or lack thereof.
Many differing views with respect are positive – lack of respect sends a very different message...

GW, you have a remarkable sense of self restraint. I believe I will follow suit.

Davasta in order to preserve the professional decorum of this forum both GW and I will not respond to this post even though this is one of the best "set up" lines I've seen posted to this board and you can't believe the responses that have crossed my ever vigilant imagination.

Thank you Theo, I knew I could count on you.

Actually JHAP, my restraint is marginal. You can see that my post was edited. What I really wanted to post may have been moderated, and what I first posted was safe but not encouraging to future groom so I removed it.

Well said George. Although this became a slightly heated debate I don't believe that any disrespect was meant by anyone. The "outside" world would probably never believe how passionate we are about our puddles of water.

I'm still trying to wrap the undamaged portion of cerebral mass around this concept. So far I've mismanaged one pond and abused an aquarium. I fear my fish don't have a chance.

I was referring to overall attitude (manner of "acting") in response to Ewest's post directly above mine, but I digress...

Y'all are too funny. I thought about it being a setup after I re-read it, but then I thought nah...they'll know what I meant...

It was just a weak attempt at humor. But this is such a great thread that I'm very sorry for derailing it a bit. I don't have much more to contribute on this subject, but I'm learning a bunch, so let's keep the respectful discussion going!

I thank the internet gods for the edit and remove post features on a weekly basis.

If the members of this board were allowed to post to this forum without restraint and censorship this would indeed become a frightening place to visit. Children would have nightmares, neighbors would file restraining orders, Spouses would consider competency hearings. Global decency would be threatened.

Yes the edit and remove functions are very much appreciated.

No need to apologize Davatsa. I though it was a great post and besides if we had to apologize for every time we have thread jacked, my personal post count would be in the thousands.

If you ever post something that is beyond any decency standards the moderators of this board will slap you faster than a...

NOTE: The remainder of JHAP's post was edited by the Committee for Internet Decency Standards and Conduct, posts of this demeaning/degrading/demoralizing nature will not be tolerated.
.

"How fast do fish get "wise.".

It all depends...........

I have worn out quite a few lures catching LMB at our pond, the last year I kept track of LMB, mostly from our pond and some public lakes, the end of the year count was 1435 LMB caught and released. That was 1993 and the year of the rattle trap, in addition, the LMB were overpopluated with not enough food to forage on in our pond, it was like catching fish out of a barrel. When fish are skinny and hungry, it can take quite a while for them to get "wise". When they are well satiatied and forage base is very abundant, it doesn't take near as long.

Thanks guys for the good feed back. I'm glad I found this site. And thanks to the "welcoming committee"... LOL

Several years ago I use to fish bass tournaments and watched every fishing show on TV.

One show stuck with me. It was on Bill Dance's program. He had this fisheries biologist, PHD as a guest who had a theory that when a fish is hooked it released "distress enzymes" that warned other fish to quit feeding.

He recommended that if you caught a fish out of a brush pile you put him into the livewell for a while. That is until the fish quit hitting there, they you released the unwanted fish.

I thought that was a bunch of BS until I started experiencing 'odd behavior' with my fish. I might catch 3-4 bass on one lure then all a sudden you couldn't buy a strike with that lure. Change lures and catch a few more fish.

Here is another odd observation. Some of my friends and I stumbled on to this on Lake Eufaula, AL.

We noticed that we could catch on or more bass out from under a bush that a a cotton mouth laying in it. It almost was a waste of time fishing around bushes w/o cotton mouths. I mentioned this to a friend who fished Santee Cooper, SC and discovered the same thing.

I was pre-fishing a tournament on Lake Cumberland in the spring one year. The guy fishing with me noticed that we could catch a fish out of a stump that had a water snake in or near it. Needless to say we spend the day watching for snakes. We caught over 100 bass that day. Not all keepers but both my firend & I did quet well in that tournament fishing that "pattern".

Why the bass seemed to hangout around snakes I don't know unless they thought there was an easy meal there.

Yeah I've quit the tournaments got to be too much like work and got to the point that I didn't enjoy it... and then there was those pesky jet skis...

Turtles....

For the first few years I had my pond in the spring turtles would come up and just sun on the surface. I shot a couple of them with my .22 that that didn't close the book on them. I started shooting them with my .308 from a good distance away. Man you talk about making a mess out of a turtle. I'm sure the CC loved them. I shot one last year and haven't seen any in the pond this year at all. That's not to say they aren't there but they are keeping their heads down. I do see "bubble trails" every so often. Oh Yeah... I did kill one back in the spring... I didn't see him when I was mowing the yard. He sure made a lot of noise under the mower deck. Last year a friend wanted to fish my pond for turtles. He fished it daily for 3 weeks w/o catching a one.

I am no expert by any means. And I don't want any one to think I don't respect them, as I do respect alll on this board. BUT.......

I think you are all thinking to hard on this subject. As I also have a small pond, 1/4 acre, I have seen several changes in behavior of my fish just since it was built in 2002. I think alot of the time the weather has more to do with the cycle of feeding then presure. I fished my pond hard last summer, everyday, I caught many CC and released them again, the fishing remained high all summer. The winter we had was colder for a longer period of time, and this spring was a rather unusual one also. I have seen my fish respond to weather more this year then last.
They came to the feed ealry this spring in April then we had a cold snap, and they quit coming to feed. After the weather warmed I expected them to return, however they really haven't eaten like thy did last year, I don't use pellets as bait so therefore they shouldn't fear the food.
Now our weather has been cooler this year then last at the same time and we have had several small showers, even tho the pond is still very low. Which I think causes the fish not to bite as well, concerving energy? Who knows? My simple view on fishing is.... "If I went fishing just to catch fish, I would never go." We all have had good and bad days fishing, I say, give it a few days it will change.


No DISRESPCT intened and I hope no one thinks less of me for my thoughts on this, and I am sure there is truth in the statement that fish do get hook shy, I just can't beleave they have that long of a memory. Otherwise we couldn't catch any fish in our ponds.

Just my humble opinion