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#8117 04/16/06 12:10 PM
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Ok guys. i finally have my pond finished! A little under 1 acre and about 20 feet deep on most parts. It is dry to the bone and i want to set up some structure. But i have heard many things that people use. Is their one particular set up that works the best? My brother just had his house built so i have alot of wood and pvc. My goal HSB in the 5lb range. Is that reasonable? Any and all info is very much appreciated. Thanks ahead frank ps i will post pics later tonight

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j70/Walboknls/?


1/10 acre pond-LMB,HBG//1 acre HSB, BG, RES, BLACK CRAPPIE--STOCKED APRIL 2007
#8118 04/16/06 06:28 PM
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Wood deteriorates over time. PVC doesn't and you can get creative and build some sort of structure with it. I personally like rocks and cedar trees. Fish will usually hang in the upper 10 ft. of water but, in Texas, that can vary a lot during the summer.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
#8119 04/16/06 09:08 PM
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Here is a link to a list of structure/cover links
but HSB don't need any as they are open water fish.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000154#000003

I just copied it and here it is.

general stct. info methods:

Below is a link to the new Habitat Manual from the Southern Division of The American Fisheries Society. It is a great resource for info on and building of cover/stct. I think you will enjoy this and get some ideas including drawings/pics.

http://www.sdafs.org/reservoir/manuals/habitat/Main.htm

Also there is a new Aquatic Vegetation Manual linked below

http://www.sdafs.org/reservoir/manuals/aqveg/veghome.htm

If you have water depth fluctuations or will fish in fall through spring (as well as summer) then some deep cover is good. I like cover that goes from the bottom at 15ft all the way to or near the surface in a few locations.


Artificial man-made structure.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000161;p=1

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000196;p=1#000000

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000173;p=1#000000


Pallets as stct.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000132


Xmas trees as stct.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000083;p=1


Gravel for BG spawning

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000124


Rip-rap as stct.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000134


Rock for LMB spawning.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000120;p=1


Tires as stct.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000138


Sand for spawning.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000115


General stct./cover ideas

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000016


Oak trees.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000008


Pond pics. stct.

http://photobucket.com/albums/b165/ahvatsa/


thermocline and islands.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001578#000005

There are hundreds of threads here on stct. and cover. The above are a few good ones many of which have links to additional material and even better pics. Get the PB mag. and the PB book on pond mgt. and ask all the questions you like and we will help you through this. Ponds are great fun.
















#8120 04/17/06 05:53 AM
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walboknls1
If you plan to stock HSB, you might want to consider leaving the deeper area of your pond near the dam, structure free.

Our sructure is placed in shallower mid/upper end of pond.

George Glazener
N.E. Texas

#8121 04/17/06 11:04 AM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by walboknls1:
My goal HSB in the 5lb range. Is that reasonable?
Walboknls1,

Absolutely reasonable, given time and ample food supply. We have several 4 pound HSB that are the result of three growing seasons...and expect them to hit five pounds+ this fall in their fourth growing season. HSB need lots of feed, either natural or artificial to generate that growth.

#8122 04/17/06 05:14 PM
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You can stock HSBs and put them on pelletted food, at a rate up to 200 per acre. Or you can rely on the food chain for production of HSBs by stocking standard baitfish like fatheads, bluegill, shad, tilapia, etc. Stocking rate for HSBs raised on baitfish would be 50-75 per acre. Good aeration is important with the HSBs.


It's ALL about the fish!
#8123 04/17/06 05:47 PM
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Todd,

After a couple of growing seasons, those 200 HSB per acre would be about 400 pounds of HSB per acre and after three years, could be approaching 800 pounds per acre, assuming none/few are removed. At least, that type of growth would happen in my ponds in my experience.

Are you saying that is a good/safe pond management strategy? Seems like the number that's critical to the pond manager is pounds of HSB per acre at any given time, not number of fish per acre and the pond should be managed to that number. Is that incorrect?

My approach, which isn't necessarily right or wrong but does work for me, is to stock a few HSB each year, say 10 to 15 per acre and begin removing them after a couple of years. That way, you have a continuous supply of them growing and don't have an overpopulation/weight problem to contend with all at the same time. A stocking approach/plan geared to the number of fish you plan to use per acre per year seemed to fit my needs better than harvesting large numbers of HSB all at once...but it all depends on your objectives, Walboknls1

#8124 04/17/06 07:17 PM
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After a couple of growing seasons, those 200 HSB per acre would be about 400 pounds of HSB per acre and after three years, could be approaching 800 pounds per acre, assuming none/few are removed.


ML, I believe we have discussed this subject both on the forum and by email.

A HSB survival rate that you suggest for your pond seems to be an unlikely asssmption that “non/few” are removed.

“It depends” on how many fish are harvested from a “put and take” HSB pond, and how many are lost to “catch and release”.

By your own admission, the HSB will fight until it dies if caught on light tackle, your 5 wt flyrod if I remember correctly.

I suggest that it is good practice to use heavier tackle and bring the fish to hand quickly before release.

I don’t believe there will be an over population with the recommended beginning stocking rate and management, with appropriate supplemental annual stocking program.

#8125 04/17/06 07:51 PM
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The more the pond is treated in an aquaculture method (feeding , aeration , supp. forage , detail to water quality , put and take mgt. etc) the more lbs. of fish that can be grown per acre. The trick is in knowing how to do that and when to do what. Some of the phosphate pit ponds in Fla. have fish in the thousands of pounds per acre with little mgt .
















#8126 04/17/06 09:30 PM
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There you go ewest.

200 HSBs per acre, averaging 5 lbs ea = 1000 lbs per acre. This amount of fish biomass is completely sustainable with an aerated pond...easy actually. What the guy does after reaching this goal is up to him.....but harvest would be advisable to allow for further growth of the remaining population and for restocking.

Easy...stock them, feed them, catch them, eat them, restock them. Not complicated or pushed from the fish dealer.


It's ALL about the fish!
#8127 04/18/06 07:56 AM
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walboknls1,

You've heard from the experts....1000 pounds per acre is recommended and completely, easily sustainable.

If you follow those recommendations, I'd sure like to hear how it turns out....forgive me if I have my doubts as to the wisdom of the average pond owner trying to carry 1000 pounds per acre through the Texas droughts and summers.

#8128 04/18/06 09:26 AM
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thanks everyone. as you can kind of tell it is pretty much a bowl. So I just need to put structure around the edge of the pond? just for the FH and the BG? do i not need anything in the middle of the pond? also what do you recommend as far as stocking rates for my pond. I was thinking: 15 lbs fatheads,100 copernose, 100 redear, 75 hsb? What do you guys think? More-less? Also how do I determine what type of "perch" I buy? Todd I will be giving you a call as soon as we get some water (maybe Thursday or Friday). also meadowlark yes indeed I am a "average" pond owner but I have some experts on the forum! \:D thanks alot guys. sorry for carrying on but so many questions. thanks alot frank

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h71/juju2254/Easter2006071.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h71/juju2254/Easter2006070.jpg


1/10 acre pond-LMB,HBG//1 acre HSB, BG, RES, BLACK CRAPPIE--STOCKED APRIL 2007
#8129 04/18/06 09:32 AM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by overtonfisheries:


200 HSBs per acre, averaging 5 lbs ea = 1000 lbs per acre. This amount of fish biomass is completely sustainable with an aerated pond...easy actually. What the guy does after reaching this goal is up to him.....but harvest would be advisable to allow for further growth of the remaining population and for restocking.

Easy...stock them, feed them, catch them, eat them, restock them. Not complicated or pushed from the fish dealer.
Todd,

Forgive me for I am still learning here, but does the above statement hold true with any fish versus biomass, or is it only a HSB thing? I am trying to ascertain how feasible it is when stocking general ponds, and how much upkeep is required per lbs per acre per species.

Thanks


Do fish actually kiss?


#8130 04/18/06 11:29 AM
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Just for fun...I did a search on "biomass".

Interesting reading.

Here's just a few findings:

From Bill Cody: "Keep in mind that there should be 6 to 10 pounds of forage fish ALWAYS present for every predator. Some of the SMB and HSB will go "off feed" and about 50% to 75% of the SMB offspring will NOT learn to eat pellets."

My words...That would imply that for 1000 pounds of HSB per acre one would need 10,000 pounds of forage per acre...

More interesting stuff:

From Bruce:

"HSB tolerance for warm water starts to wane as they reach larger sizes."

From Bruce:
Hybrid Striped Bass optimal temps.

32-50 degrees--no feeding
51-62 degrees--females staging at spawning areas (good fishing for biggest fish)
63-68 degrees--males join in on false spawn (best fishing, low stress)
69-75 degrees--fish very active, low to moderate stress
76-80 degrees--moderate to high stress
81 degrees and above--very high stress and high angling mortality

Also from Bruce:

"Back to your question. 100 pounds of HSB per acre is a manageable number."

The above quote from Bruce is the one I've tried to follow, myself. Lots of other interesting stuff on biomass especially as related to GG's.

I couldn't find anyone advocating 1000 pounds per acre of HSB in Texas summers, except in this particular post...but maybe I missed it. I'm sure if its there someone will bring it to the readers attention. Thanks.

#8131 04/18/06 12:56 PM
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IIRC, the 1000 lbs./acre was referring to treating the pond more like an aquaculture setting.

If you were running HSB production as an aquaculture business (in TX or anywhere), to me that would mean state of the art aeration (air injection plus maybe horizontal rolling with water injection), well water replenishing to cover evaporative losses (or even for cooling, as Cecil does - possible if your well-to-pond ratio is high enough), periodic pond draining for harvest (with the implied flushing of at least the suspended and dissolved accumulated nutrients and fish by-products - do fish farmers ever scrape pond bottoms or otherwise remove silt to occasionally reduce what must be an awesome bulld-up of organics from all the feeding?), and (most importantly, probably) total reliance on pelleted feed to support those 1000 lbs. of HSB per acre.

I doubt an aquaculture business can afford to turn forage fish into market fish when pelleted food will suffice, so we eliminate the forage fish from the HSB aquaculture pond and hence the 10,000 lbs of biomass they represent. I imagine, while HSB experts like ML will know, that not all HSB will thrive on pellets, although I suspect a very high % would. In an aquaculture setting, the HSB that won't gain weight to market size on pellets would have to be considered culls.

Does that make 1000 lbs. of HSB/acre in Texas sound more realistic? At least in the UNrealistic (from a sport pond viewpoint) aquaculture pond? So if we approach raising HSB from more of an aquaculture perpective, can we talk about approaching 1000 lbs/acre of HSB?


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#8132 04/18/06 01:13 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Theo Gallus:
IIRC, the 1000 lbs./acre was referring to treating the pond more like an aquaculture setting.
Theo,

One of the aspects of this thread was stocking rate for HSB for the average pond owner, which I consider myself sometimes to be on the few days I'm lucky enough to be that good.

If Todd and EWEST were only talking about special situations, then I misunderstood and I apologize.

Todd stated how "easy" and "completely sustainable" 1000 pounds per acre of HSB is and that completely surprised me. Living in Texas, where many places are already currently over 100 degrees, and carrying 1000 pounds per acre of a fish that is without question high temperature sensitive, strikes me as a questionable practice for the average pond owner, but I'm no expert...and certainly not planning 1000 pounds of HSB per acre.

Imagine the amount of forage and feed in 90 degree water temps for several months for 1000 pounds of fish per acre...thats a surprising recommendation to this average pond owner, even if no one else finds it surprising.

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I wouldn't even consider 1000 pounds of fish per acre. It appears, to me, that it would take too many positive assumptions. I agree that it probably can be done; but not by the average guy. Todd may be able to do it but I couldn't.

#8134 04/18/06 04:38 PM
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Here's my original statement. Read it again, carefully this time, ML. Check out the bold print as well please. Also please find more info below.

You can stock HSBs and put them on pelletted food, at a rate up to 200 per acre. Or you can rely on the food chain for production of HSBs by stocking standard baitfish like fatheads, bluegill, shad, tilapia, etc. Stocking rate for HSBs raised on baitfish would be 50-75 per acre.

The 200/acre stocking rate is based on stocking only HSBs, no other fish. HSBs are more likely to stay on feed this way, but sure some small percentage will go off feed. It is also based on a feeding program and good aeration. The 50-75 per acre stocking rate is based on forage based production.

The "average" pond owner does not know that this forum exists. The "average" pond owner is probably out fishing and drinking beer instead of pondering the if's, and's, or but's. I see this forum as a potential wealth of information for folks who want more than the average pond. So if walboknls1 wants to stock 200 per acre, I'll tell him how to do it and make clear to him his risks and rewards. ;\)


It's ALL about the fish!
#8135 04/18/06 04:59 PM
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I think my post was clear. I did not recommend any course of action and do not think it can be fairly said that I did. I will be clear.

The closer a pond is to an aquaculture operation (some factors set out above) the more pounds of fish per acre it can support.

You have to know what to do and when to do it to have success under those conditions.

Very specific -- phosphate pit ponds in parts of Fla. support thousands of pounds of fish per acre with little mgt. That is a real specific fact from fisheries biologists who have worked them for years.

Any assessment of a population has to take into account #s stocked , recruitment, growth or loss of weight , and morts. Morts. for HSB come from natural causes , heat/temps (in the south), fish stress from fishing , and those taken out and eaten. Below is some info on HSB morts in southern ponds and resiv. with little fishing pressure.

"Minimum survival estimates of hybrid striped bass in this study were comparable
to survival estimates from most reservoir studies. For example, survival of hybrids in
Alabama from age 1 to age 2 was 30.9% (Moss and Lawson 1982). These fish were
similar in size to our Phase II fish, which exhibited a minimum of 37.5% survival after
348 days in pond 2."

The ranges were from 16% to 88% survival per year. I think it safe to say that over 3 years in a southern pond many of the HSB will be morts. from one of the above methods.

No one suggested having 1000 lbs of HSB per acre in a pond. The recommendation (not mine but as I understand it) was 200 HSB per acre stocked as advanced fingerlings. If 100 (which is a stretch) live to 3 yrs and 3 lbs you will have 300 lbs of HSB per acre which is manageable (if at all possible) in a well managed pond with feeding and aeration. If the cause of death is heat (as is often the case in southern ponds) then it is likely to kill them all (or most) if it is 10 or 200 per acre. See the results of the study I posted recently where the heat resulted in the death of most of the HSB/LMB and BG of larger size.

So no one will misunderstand this post I do not run our ponds anywhere near capacity and do not suggest that you do unless you are both a very good mgr. and understand the consequences of error. But take the time to understand the principles at work and insist on having as many facts possible first (if you can get them) - not just half of them.
















#8136 04/18/06 05:34 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by overtonfisheries:
There you go ewest.

200 HSBs per acre, averaging 5 lbs ea = 1000 lbs per acre. This amount of fish biomass is completely sustainable with an aerated pond...easy actually. What the guy does after reaching this goal is up to him.....but harvest would be advisable to allow for further growth of the remaining population and for restocking.

Easy...stock them, feed them, catch them, eat them, restock them. Not complicated or pushed from the fish dealer.
Todd,

I didn't make up the 1000 pounds per acre...I was only reacting with surprise at how easy and completely sustainable you characterized 1000 pounds per acre as being. Geez, I would have thought 400 pounds per acre a couple of years after stocking was scary in our Texas climate....but to learn that 1000 pounds is easy....well it surprised me.

I think a discussion of the 1000 pounds per acre and the stocking rate was in order so that all could make up their own minds. I also think a search of past posts on this topic is very revealing. If I misstated anyone's words, then my bad...but I remain surprised at the stated ease of sustaining 1000 pounds per acre in the Texas summers.

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ML, if I remeber correctly, last year you asked Overton where you could obtain large HSB from a commercial seafood operator.

He provided you the information and volunteered an aerated tank.

I don't recall if this was a PM or a post - if PM my apologies.

Do you still have the link to this Company?
It will probably shed some light on this subject since you have elevated this discussion.

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George,

As I recall, the name of the company was Silver Streak and was first mentioned by Bruce on the Forum. They do not sell to individuals and agreed to sell me some only because I basically begged them to do so. I decided against purchasing from them because at the time I was "enjoying" poaching and figured there just wasn't any point in buying 2 pound fish for someone else to catch and enjoy. \:\) Yes, Todd graciously agreed to provide me the loan of a fish hauler container.

I don't understand what is meant by "elevating the discussion". I was simply questioning the "easy" and "complete sustainability" of 1000 pounds of large HSB (five pounds each) in the heat of our Texas summers. I didn't mean to start World War III.

As I have observed and learned more about HSB over the years, I have learned that they are very high temperature sensitive(high stress in anything over 81 degrees). In June, July, August, and September any HSB caught in my ponds that weighs three pounds or more will die from that experience, regardless of tackle being used. I didn't know that when I started, although Bruce did warn of that high temperature intolerance on several occasions. In looking back at past posts, Bruce clearly warned about that and he also re-iterated his experience with stocking HSB at the limits. When Bruce says 100 pounds of HSB is manageable, I take that to the bank and when he says that large HSB are very temperature intolerant, I also listen to that, better now than earlier. When Todd said 1000 pounds of 5 pound HSB were easy to completely sustain, I was surprised.

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This taken from Culture and Propagation of Striped Bass and it's Hybrids:

In a paragraph describing semi-intensive production trials, "In the South Carolina studies, stocking densities ranged from 2700-4800 fish/acre with phase II fingerlings averagint 1.8 fish per lb. After 10-12 months of culture, fish averaged 1.9 lbs, with survival ranging from 93%-96%. Production levels were related to stocking density, with 8655 lbs per acre produced at the highest density."

This is not an example of what the "average" pond-owner should try. This is an example of the potential only. Do not try this at home. Warning signs everywhere.

BUT, 1000 lbs of fish per acre with good aeration is completely sustainable....sustainable....sustainable. Of course that statement is based on some assumptions, like...yes there will be water in the pond during the summer, yes good water quality is important, etc. 100% survival rate is not expected. This is hard to control, but you'd have to stock enough fish initially to counter 3-5 years of mortality.


It's ALL about the fish!
#8140 04/18/06 07:28 PM
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Silver Streak is located near El Campo, southwest of Houston, where Texas summer heat lasts for 6 months of the year. They raise the fish. Give em a call ask about heat related losses.

From the same manual it is reported than the optimum temperature for growth of hybrid striped bass was 80 degrees F, with peak food consumption at 82.4 degrees F. It is also reported that the optimum temperature for growth of small 8g size hybrids was between 81 and 88 degrees F, but that optimum drops fo 80 degrees F for 130g size hybrids.


It's ALL about the fish!
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I said it was completely sustainable in an "aerated" pond, then I advised harvest and restocking of smaller fish again.

Also, a drought is not something that just comes on suddenly...you wake up in the morning and your pond is dry. If pond volume is not controllable then harvest some fish according to receding water levels.


It's ALL about the fish!
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by esshup - 03/26/24 10:00 PM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

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