Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Why We Hunt

I've loved to hunt pheasants since I was a teenager. I honestly can't think of anything I'd rather do than sneak up on and execute a clean kill on a ringneck.

I have a hygienist who is a very loving, kind, softhearted animal lover who has recently befriended a wild dog that she found living in a local park. Read the following link.

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2006/11/12/local/doc45565fbdc12a9484524172.txt

What is really interesting is that this dog-- that's she invested so much energy and time and emotion in--has taken to killing her pet birds when she's away. Twice she's come into the office in tears because, as she puts it, "My dog accidentally killed my bird".

Now trust me, the semi-wild dog that she brought home isn't doing anything by "accident". It's killing the birds because it is genetically and evolutionarily programmed to do so. Does it make this dog morally bankrupt to kill her birds? It doesn't need to kill them to eat. It has ample food in it's bowl every day. It kills the birds because that's what it does.

I'm the same as that dog. I don't have to kill. I can choose not to, which I often do. I can even take thousands of my own hard earned dollars and create habitat on my farm which has turned it from a wasteland into a haven for dozens of deer, which I have. But I'm still hardwired to kill.

Many can claim that they are better than me because they don't kill, or that they've denied, hidden or absorbed this hardwiring. That's fine with me. But I yam what I yam, and I'll always be that way.

Now back to my love for pheasant hunting. The last five weeks I've been spreading a little corn that I got from Tractor Supply Company on a bare patch near a food plot that I started this year. This big ol' wrangly ringneck has been spending an hour or two each day munching on that corn. Yesterday I threw a shotgun on my shoulder and walked up to that barespot. That ringneck never saw me comin' and he busted up about eight feet in front of me. I dropped the gun on him---and by golly instead of shooting I just lipped the words "bang-bang" and let him go.

I've taken ownership in this bird. I like him, and in a way I love him. I couldn't bare to kill him, or worse yet break his leg and watch him fly off with a dangler. It was one of the greatest moments of my life and I don't really know precisely why. I just know it felt good. If I'm lucky and God smiles on me again I'll watch him fly off a few more times this winter.

Go figure.

By the way...thanks, Poseiden for a good thread. Just don't take anything personally that we say and you'll be all right. I'm learning from both sides. The key to it all is to not turn opinions into insults. It's a fine line between the two, and when people get passionate about their feelings, it's easy to sound offensive. That's why they tell us dentists to not discuss politics or religion. It's a lot easier to make an enemy than a friend. The "glad you aren't a doctor" comment crosses the line from constructive discussion to taking a jab at somebody. That's where these things always go wrong. I almost locked this thread a while ago, but I had great faith in the people of this forum to have a good cold weather discussion without it becoming inflammatory. In my very, very humble opinion, this discussion could be about to turn south.

Hey, Bruce it looks like you got "partially moderated -I know how it feels. "They" got me last week on the "Canada" thread......
Seriously, your 8:52 PM post was extremely well presented and even though I am on the other side, I respect yours & Greg's opinion and all the hunters rights. Like my Dad use to say "if everybody liked the same thing they'd be living at our house".
You'r probably right about the direction of this thread, but fear not, because usually one post from me is enough to kill any thread....

Frankly, this thread has not been too controversial.

You can only state your own thoughts.

You cannot challenge anyone else's.

I agree with that to a certain extent, but I have had people explain their feelings to me in an intelligent manner, and softened my stance a little, only to find out years later that I had completely changed my opinion.

I completely agree that I'll likely never totally change someone's opinion with an argument, but I really enjoy the discourse when it's kept non-confrontational. Actually I don't reallly want to change their opinion. I just don't want my rights to ever be taken away, so I like to let others know how much I value certain freedoms. Recently I met a Colorado football fan who stated that Nebraska fans always need "patted on the back" for how great they are. Well I knew that was one argument I didn't need to participate in. For once in my life I left well enough alone and took a quick exit.

I don't mind anyone here who doesn't agree with my desire to hunt, you're all great guys as far as I can see. Not intending to support hunting or not I'd just like to make an observation about animals and pain. I too have seen many animals that have been shot, hit by a car, or hurt in some way. Some of them were wild animals some were domestic. I believe an animal feels bad pain at first and then has some special ability to shut it down. I don't think this theory is physiologically impossible. I know an animal can feel minor pain for long periods but somehow when it's major it can be shut down. I've seen animals with tremendous bodily damage and within minutes or perhaps hours they go about life as if nothing happened other than some disability. Perhaps people can do that too, I don't think I've ever been fatally wounded, LOL. I do know that most animals eventually die a very gruesome death, maybe it's even painful. Might as well be my bullet but if others prefer not to do that I understand. Great story about the pheasant Bruce. Some time I tell you about when I did the exact same thing and he died anyway.

Bruce, maybe what I meant to say is that when someone feels very strongly about something, another person should not challenge them and try to convince them otherwise; for if someone does, they are most likely foolish to believe that they are in the right, as if there is only one "right" way.

I have not been offended by anyone's comments here on this thread, but if anyone mentions the scene from the 80's movie "Red Dawn" where the kid shoots the deer and then drinks some of it's blood......well, anyway...

What were we talking about??

Arguing with a hunter about hunting is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig. After a while you realize, he just likes it.

Ever been through Amarillo? Don't pity the deer that spends its whole life running free doing what God created it to do. Pity the cow that spends its life on a 10’ high pile of cow manure up to its knees. BTW, I love a good steak.

Man is not the dominant predator, he’s just plain dominant. A dominance that bares with it an awesome responsibility to not only take care of our environment but all the other creatures that God created within it. That includes those that fill a need, such as food, clothing, companionship, sport, etc. but also those that don’t. If we don’t we’ll lose them forever.

Nature can control its own, but the results are sometimes less than desired and sometimes so seemingly cruel and inhumane as to melt even the hardest heart . When populations exceed the natural carrying capacity of the land, disease and starvation take over. The alternative is a much more civilized approach. Manage the populations of both predator and prey to a healthy optimal maximum. Sometimes this means transplanting animals to establish new populations and many times it means reducing the population to maintain the optimal. We could use tax money to hire paid professionals to just go in and thin the herd, or we could sell licenses and let individuals do it. We can take that revenue and use to provide research and habitat to benefit not only that species but all animals living within that ecosystem.

As for trying to figure out how a deer feels, you can’t. We have reason, emotion, regret and a host of other wonderful gifts that God gave to man that animals don’t have. When we try to equate people with animals, the world stops making sense. Animals don’t have rights. People have responsibility.

Bruce thanks for comment, that is why I hate writing vs. talking to someone. You can not, at least I can not, express tone in writing. I have been civil and thought the Dr. comment was not in line either.

I was simply trying to releate a personal story that maybe they do sense pain but with perfectly placed arrow seem to not feel anything simply fall over dead a little later. This in contratst to his view point that they run off in pain.

I'm not trying to change anyones stance just letting nonhunters see it is not as black and white as it seems to be. Hunters we need the support of non hunters to help preserve our heritage. The antihunters no chance changing their minds.

Wow since I started this let me chime in with one more angle.

I think that there is a big difference between people that

1. Are simply non hunters
2. Don't like hunting
3. Are anti hunters

What I see here at pond boss other then those that hunt themselves seem to be #1 and #2. I have yet to see a true Anti Hunter. To me and Anti is someone who actually has an objective to outlaw hunting and is actively engaged in promoting it.

Anti's are generally very poorly informed about wild life and management of it. They don't understand hard facts like starvation. They don't get that any deer that grows old enough starves in the wild no matter how much food there is.

Anti's can't grasp the fact that Pennsylvania is the most heavily hunted deer state in the US and yet it has a deer heard that grew from 900,000 animals in the mid 80s to more then 1.6 Million today.

Like I said we don't seem to have any of them here which makes a LOT of sense. Land managers tend to understand to much reality to not grasp logic.

Many non hunters or people that really don't like hunting don't want to hunt and they don't want to see it. They won't allow it on their land but they make NO EFFORT to try to outlaw hunting and would not VOTE for someone with the goal to take away all guns and all hunting.

I don't think most hunters have much of an issue with these people personally. What hunters are is hyper sensitive as a group taking many non hunters to be anti hunters. There is good reason for it.

Go back and read my orginal post. That is what hunting is to many of us. It is a way of life and a tradition we dearly love. No one loves the wild life more the the hunter.

Spare me the stories about the yahoos cutting off horns and being jerks. They are less then 1/10 of 1% of people that call themselves hunters. Trust me such jerks have far more to fear from real hunters then from anti hunters if we happen to see them. A call to the warden is the minimum result a good old fashioned butt kicking may be the other option.

We are hypersensitive as a group because there is a REAL THREAT to our way of life out there. Our fear with people who are just non hunters and don't like hunting is they may stand by and allow us to loose our fight because they do not understand it.

Money is what fuels this fight. We (hunters) put our money into wild life management and preservation. Anti's put their money into stopping us from hunting. They are fueled by clueless celebrities who back groups like PETA (who kills thousands of dogs each year by the way).

My post was an attempt to let those who are non hunters or just don't like it possibly understand it better. Not a call for you to pick up a gun or a bow and join me in the woods. Hunters like solitude trust me we don't need more company especially on public land.

We seek

1. To be understood
2. For our rights to be protected

If you look at the success of any animal in the US over the last 100 years (game and non game) it is a direct result of hunters, their money and their efforts. We love the land, we love our nation and above all we love knowing our place in nature.

Hunting vs. Non Hunting debates are never about converting people and getting them to hunt too. It is simply about the fact that we don't want to loose something that means so much to us. We are dedicated people that have more love for the wild then anyone in a group like PETA ever could.

We in short simply seek to be understood and allowed to retain the rights to the land and the game that are part of the foundation of our nation,

Well said Jack! My hat is off to you for putting such heartfelt feelings & beliefs into words.

YOu preach it brother! 100% agree witcha Jack

Greg, I retract the "glad you're not a doctor" remark. It was my first response to "they are going to die anyway". I felt like the Aflac duck when Yogi Berra says "Cash is just as good as money".

Bruce, thanks for not killing the thread. I think this has been one of the most enlightening threads that didn't directly address ponds and lakes. I hope I haven't offended anyone, and rest assured I haven't been.

Jack, sign me up for #2. Don't like to hunt, but love a good steak.

poseidon 10-4 and believe me lots of folks are glad I'm not an MD. ALthough I can extract an ocular nematode from a bluegill pretty dang quick. That is always a hit when the shock crowd is gathered.

Greg Grimes, Icthyo-opthamological Surgeon.

I feel 99% the same way as you.

The way I see it, If you don't feel sorrow and empathy for the deer, you have no right to harvest it. I think every true sportsman feels a little remorse, guilt, pain, or whatever for his game. If he doesn't, he doesn't, he shouldn't be trusted with a rifle.

The deer (or insert any game species here) have evolved the way they are because of predation pressure. If they are not predated, their muscles will become flabby; their senses dulled. Since there are few predators, we are doing prey species a favor by hunting.

Yes, I know that sounds like spin to justify the horrible sport of hunting. But the facts are, we are hunters, and the deer are prey species. We didn't make it so. It has always been so. It's not our place to change it.

Just an interesting side note, that has no direct bearing really on the discussion, but interesting nonetheless...

In the 1800's there were scientists who made a series of measurements on the American bison. They measured such things as femur length, average weight, height etc. etc.

Currently, the population of bison is larger and more robust than the animals of the 1800's, presumably because the weaker animals were invariably the first killed during the great bison slaughter.

Just a guess, but I'll bet todays animals are smarter, too.

...and just making an educated guess, but I'll bet this issue has been whipped, beaten, hashed and rehashed thousands of times on hundreds of forums, and I'll bet this is the most civil one ever. I like it.

Bruce

I agree this has been a very civil discussion and probally the most civil I have ever seen on this subject.

On the Buffalo thing. There is a huge misconception that "hunting" was the cause of their almost extinction. This is not the case, it was not sport hunting, settlers feeding themselves or ever true market hunting that almost eliminated all the bison.

It was wholesale killing like no species has ever experienced before. There were so many bison there was no way to use all the meat or hides on market. So why were they all killed?

Government subsudies! One of the very first of these things that mispend tax dollars. You see we were still fighting wars with the Native Americans when the buffs still roamed. Bison meant food for the Indians and much of what was left of the resistance was being fed off mostly bison.

With no bison the mid west was a hard place to live for the Indians. So hard it was the biggest thing that led them to taking treaties and moving to reservations for the promise of some land and BEEF!

As sport and meat hunting pushed the buffs to smaller more scattered heards the Native Americans began to fold in some areas. So our government decided to wipe out the buffs to break the Indians everywhere. It worked! It may be a very sad part of US History and something we can wish never happened but it is what happened and why.

Even market hunting alone would never have pushed the bison to the edge alone. Also have you noticed there are deer, elk, etc all through the same ranges the bison used to live in but still to this day there are very few heards of true free range bison.

Why? Cattle ranches, bison in numbers are competitors for the cattle to graze.

So the desire to win the Indian Wars cause the bison to be culled to next to nothing and cattle ranches have kept them low in true wild populations.

If we just started dumping bison from breeding operations in the great plains at random and did so for 10-20 years it would only be perhaps 3 full decades before there would be MILLIONS of them again.

I tried to bite my tongue, but...
Buffalo, strange that a controversial topic would have as an example another controversial topic. There seems to be no evidence that the government directly contributed to the demise of the buffalo (almost everything else did through, weather, disease, ranchers, etc.). They failed to pass legislation that would have help save them at an earlier date, but other than that, they did very little. The Indian would have eventually killed them off as they were killing more than were being reproduced, in the 1700s the Spanish were trying to convince them that they needed to be more resourceful. We western European types accelerated the process and with a profit. Ironically the saving of the buffalo was also based on a profit.

No one can win on the buffalo debate, because most historians disagree with each other who caused the demise of the native bison. We can only learn from the past, but I don't see that happening. Many people, including americans, are moving farm operations to Brazil, to destroy their pristine native habitat. The new frontier as they call it.

Back to hunting. I saw a nature show on the wolves. And it showed them killing a bison. It took hours to kill the animal, practically eating away at it while it was alive.

Lance, I watch a lot of those animal shows and have seen lions doing that. It's pretty disturbing, but IMHO there is a "shock" mechanism that kicks in with animals (and humans) that helps to mute the pain in extreme situations - like when those poor people lept from the Towers during 9/11. Don't have any facts, but that is what I choose to believe.

DD1 ask me to post this but I can't get the middle 1/3 of the panoramic pic to copy or save. If one of you pic whizzes want to try let me know and I will send it to you for a try.

Dinner Time in Eagle River, Wisconsin


These people living in Northern Wisconsin put some corn out in the

dead of winter to sustain the area deer.


When I said the deer up here were as thick as cats and dogs, I

wasn't far off. Wisconsin community of Eagle River

Taking down 50 deer before you need to reload: priceless