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Good discussion all. I'm reluctantly willing to just let the experiment ride as is and not change a thing with the HSB, but only if someone can give an objective reason why rotating out the HSB will adversely affect(invalidate) the growth data on the TGG's.

I'd bet, if you guys could just see these HSB and see a relatively big 4 acre pond(when full) sitting right beside the 1/4 acre pond...I'd bet that just about every single one of you would want to do the same thing. Its only natural to want to see how these 12 inch HSB beauties would grow out in a larger environment.

I'd really like to move them, but won't if an objective case is made for invalidation of the results.

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Whatever you decide, just keep us posted. I am very interested in the TGG "kids pond" results. Am currently flagging a new pond approx. 320'x150'.
al

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 Quote:
Originally posted by Sunil:
On a side note, I wonder how the same experiment, with a goal of HSB grow-out, would work with pure Bluegill. Might you even get a faster growth rate of HSB due to more forage by straight Bluegill.
Sunil,

Seems like it would have to be better, doesn't it? Right now, there simply are not any Fx offspring evident in the TGG pond and not likely to be any more spawning of Fx until next spring.

With straight BG as you suggest, the HSB growth would have to be even better and then throw in Tilapia and you might really have something...a rapidly growing HSB already conditioned to the forage and the water conditions of the new home. Has to be a winner for the HSB.

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All, to be honest with you, I think that having 40 HSB in a .25 acre pond is way overkill. Those things can get to 10 - 15 lbs and that's 400 lbs of predators at some point, assuming the F8 giants are even more prolific than known. In a .25 acre pond, I don't think any spawn would ever survive of any sunfish.

40 HSB is what I would do or recommend if I wanted no GG offspring. For that matter no crappie or any other prolific spawner.

If you could remove all but maybe just a handfull, say 5, things would get very interesting... but it's not my experiment, so whatever.

My 7 yo had his first experience with a 1 lb + hybrid bluegill/giant. He was with 100 kids at a youth event. It was the only keeper caught. I'm sure others were swimming, but only the small offspring were caught, beating the larger ones to the bait. Obviously, the guy was not into management, and many folks aren't.

Good luck!


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ML I would argue that by leaving all the large HSB in the kids pond you would be unknowingly changing the test. It would also be wasting the potential of the HSB and risking the kids pond's contents.

The test was to see how the GG would do in a normal pond (offspring and growth etc). If you leave all the big HSB in the pond it will soon not resemble a normal pond. A normal pond has predators of all sizes (with most being small) to pressure the yoy GG not just a bunch of big predators which may not waste energy on hunting yoy GG.

Leaving all the big HSB in the kids pond IMO would be a waste of their potential and could result in it maxing carrying capacity soon with all the negatives that carries with it as well.

I would move all but a few of the HSB and replace them with some new smaller ones realizing that the few remaining big HSB may eat a few of the small ones. That would keep the test nearer to a normal pond test with multi-sized predators.
















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I had 550 HSB in a pond that was .15 acre for two years and the bluegill not only reproduced, but quite a few survived each year. HSB on pellets usually stay on pellets.

The fishing was quite nice, too.

In my case the eradication of forage was never an issue.

...keep that in mind when calculating the dynamic of HSB in small ponds. Even when no cover is available your BG and other prey fish won't have trouble keeping ahead of the HSB.

Yes - - shocking, isn't it?


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Bruce, I'm the expert here. Just because you actually proved my theory wrong, doesn't mean I have to believe it. :p


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Rob, you're killin' me. \:D ;\)

HSB are amazingly clueless when it comes to predation skills in really small ponds. They can, however exert enough pressure on the pellets to keep them from reproducing. (lots of crazy smiling faces, etc, etc.)

You should also be aware that I am currently wearing a Pond Boss cap, which makes me the smartest person in my house right now.

I'll tell you one thing they are good at. Real little HSB are very good at pressuring really, really little crappie and bluegill. There's some good literature showing benefits to small ponds with high density lepomis/poxomis population that the 2-5 inch HSB went to town on. Also big HSB do a nice job in large reservoirs when it comes to chasing down gizzard shad.


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"You should also be aware that I am currently wearing a Pond Boss cap, which makes me the smartest person in my house right now."

Are the wife and kids out tonight??

Kidding, buddy, just kidding.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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 Quote:
Originally posted by Sunil:
Are the wife and kids out tonight??
Well, actually, yes. \:\(


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Sunil, you took the words right out of my fingers. I nearly posted the same thing last night. \:\) I would have been just kidding also, Bruce.


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\:D



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It was just hanging out there like a tuna.....too easy, just too easy.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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I guess I must play the devil’s advocate.
The line is often blurred between a “scientific experiment” and a “practical experiment”.

This topic has transitioned from Georgia Giants, to a ”Texas Georgia Giant “ experiment”, now to a “Kid’s Pond”, which by the way, is the one I have enjoyed.

A “scientific experiment” is bound by a protocol that controls the objectives and methodology involved, followed by documented work that is not altered or re-accessed in any way.

On the other hand, a “practical experiment” is art, not science, what most of us are involved in day-to-day pond management. On-going “tweaking’ is not only allowed, but necessary.

These type of ‘experiments” are fun, and I for one, have enjoyed and appreciated ML’s work, but the line between “scientific” and “practical” must not be blurred.
You can’t have it both ways.

My .02 cents for what it’s worth…

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George good points. I may be in error but I think ML provided a long time ago, after we collectively badgered him, that he would do this (whatever we call it) and keep some records but he was not doing a scientific experiment. It was first and foremost a kid's pond. I have always viewed it as just that a practical experiment but with an engineer keeping the data. A practical experiment plus expert data keeping that is common to engineers. I admire the trait that engineers always seem to have " I have to quantativly know why ". That makes them good record keepers.

You are correct on the definitions. I know most of us can not do a true scientific experiment for a lot of reasons from inadequate training to facilities to time to desire. It is next to impossible to isolate one factor and test for it in a single pond with any degree of accuracy as is generally done in a true scientific experiment. There are a lot of papers written by experts where they test for multiple criteria but they use a large variety of scientific methods to quantify the correctness of the methods wrt the data tested and the potential for error. I know you have seen many scientific experiments like that.
















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My thanks to Bz, Burger, and Greg for the great suggestions on scales for small fish. The Wally world scale that Bz described is just perfect....see it in action on 8.5 inch long/7.75 ounce TGG and 12 inch long/15 ounce HSB from the TGG pond shown below:





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