Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Summertime Culling 3-5" Bluegill, 9-12" LMB

Wow! I spend an afternoon and an evening in a hayfield and miss 2 pages of great stuff! This seems to be a fairly rare thread that has info of interest to both big bass and big bluegill people - perhaps due to the level of detail and complexity?

We have posted here:
1) A good rule of thumb: LMB prefer BG 1/3 to 1/4 their body length.
2) Advice to go past the rule of thumb and measure your LMB mouth sizes to see what they can eat (Now I need to take a new set of measurements! ).
3) IIRC, the info that the outer closed mouth measurement (side-side) on a LMB is a very good estimate of the maximum open mouth size on the same LMB. Did I read and understand that correctly, Eric? This sure seems like a quicker way to measure LMB mouth size than opening wide; should be less stressful for the bass, too.

Bruce, you missed one reason to cull 6" - 8" BG - that's what I consider prime eatin' sized BG .

Sorry.

"D.I.E.D. L.I.E.D.,
Fish cried!" :p

Two things guys

1. The heavy aquatic weed growth we have in our pond plays a very significant role in population dynamics of our pond. It cannot be overlooked in terms of the effect it has on the predator prey relationships and in the number of fish per acre present. There are tons of 1-2" BG in the pond right now as the weeds provide almost too good of hiding cover for all YOY fry. Both LMB and BG tend to stunt at very small sizes, and then a few survivors go through a huge growth spurt. A 15" LMB can survive on eating very small 1" BG but he has to eat lots of them just to maintain his weight. Growth rates and body condition tend to decline on the larger LMB when 3-5" BG are not present. Also, as the weeds get denser, it makes it harder for the LMB to find and capture prey. There is very strong correlation between high weed densities and less than average body condition with the LMB.

2. Culling LMB and BG in our pond is almost always focused primarily on extremely strong year classes of fish. Right now we have a very strong year class of 6-8" BG, last year these fish were 4-5". This very strong year class is a rebounding effect from a fish kill we had in 2004. From a culling standpoint I like to cull fish who's size and age class is extremely abundent as this should help improve the overall growth rate on that particular year class of fish.

Thanks guys. Great job by all. By discussing this concept we all learn how to better understand the interactions in the pond. Eastland what you started is very good - this is how it should work as an educational tool.

Seriously it is very good, as Bruce ( here the devil's advocate and presenter of contrary possibilities) has done here, to remind all that it depends on the situation and there could easily be reasons to think and re-think how the concept plays out. I bet you knew that intuitively and it was reinforced by Bill's mentoring. BTW my central pond mgt. concept is ("it all depends") and it was brought into focus by this forum (thanks Bill).

Bruce you are right there are reasons to cull 5-8 in BG in the right pond situation. Shorty just set one out above (very large year class which needs reduction). I would not make that call without a detailed history of the pond , the owner's goals, certainty that he understood what the goals involve , current data as set out in my post above and my own eyes on assessment.

I understood Shorty's initial plan to be next he would take out (cull) the 5-8in. BG just like he did the LMB.I may well have mis-understood this fact. Like Greg I would be concerned with taking out 20% of my breeding adult BG in a LMB crowded pond. I would very much like to see any data on how much better condition makes up for fewer breeding fish where there is a significant reduction in breeding adults. With BG I think what you would get is breeding by small immature BG to fill the gap with possible stunting and slow growth. My numbers (10, 15 and 20) were for illustration purposes only. If I had a pond with a goal of big LMB and I saw that BG nest shortage was effecting the plan I would build some more BG nests.

Theo you have Id-ed the major points and correctly and may have uncovered a possible latitudinal difference. Greg sees LMB controlling the pond reproduction situation , I see the major disrupter of LMB spawning (if it occurs) as 3-4in BG and Bruce sees 6-8in BG as filling this function. Neat and I wonder why - could it be the difference in growth rate of BG north to south or a food availability question or a population dynamic matter ?

It's all complicated. But if it was simple, we wouldn't have 2900+ members and enjoy spending all this time talking about it.

Greg
You are correct that my goal is quality 3-5 lb LMB with occasional 8-10 lb. I was just trying to understand why one would EVER want to remove BG.

FYI I have removed approx 40 lbs of LMB under 14-16 inches so far this season averaging 0.90 lbs. My cull goal for the year is 30 lbs/acre or 90 lbs for my 3 acre pond.

Thanks to all for a very informative discussion.

Frank

Atta Boy Frank ekp after those bass, they are some good eating at that size. I just wish we coudl have had better luck with Fertilization program and the HSB.

SHorty I should have known with your knowledge you would not simply being pulling the BG from the old 10lbs for every 1 lb bass deal. I agree with you assesment about weed growth.

Theo "It's all complicated. But if it was simple, we wouldn't have 2900+ members and enjoy spending all this time talking about it."

How true that is. How has the tag gun worked out? Just got in a new shipment, employee could not belive in that little box we had $1,000 worth of guns and tags.

Greg, you should know by now I'm in your camp. You won't offend me, so continue to let me know what you're thinking. Pond capacities in TX have been on a severe down cline and keeping a pond in balance is almost impossible, especially if we get sudden rains bringing them to full pool. (hahahah, am I dreaming?) Right now I'm concerned about the fertile pond having an eventual DO / Overcrowded problem with another 2 months of 90-100 temps coming. I believe the pond pool in general, without rain, is becoming more and more sluggish with higher ammonia/nutrient levels, and a higher concentration of fish. That's why I have decided to cull...it must seem extremely odd to cull the fish with the highest RW's, but they also happen to be filling a slot that gets replenished in a 2-3 month time period. The most puzzling factor seems to be the overabundance of food, and low RW's...maybe it's just another scorcher Texas Summer.

Greg:

Tag Gun works great; I did 25 BG and had no trouble with the hardware (even figured out how to reload single tags). But at first exposure, I'm scared to use it in what seems to be the accepted manner (into actual flesh, IIRC, based on what I gleaned on-line). I'll be bringing fish tagging up in a thread when I've got time to try it out some more, maybe after done making hay in a couple of months.

Theo how are those nail clippers. :p If you have a lot to mark or they are small and you don't need to id specific fish clip a fin or tail.

eastland again see how things are diff in other parts of the country. Although most ponds in GA are pretty low also but I guess nothing like what you guys have been up againist for sometime. I get your plan now better to slecet what you want to take rather than Mother Nature taking what she wants.

Theo I will see if Floy Tag has a paper to show how to do it, you will be fine and not hurt the fish, ask Frank.

Greg and Theo,

It is amazing how many of the tagged fish I have caught more than once. Several of my taggers have been caught 4 times and one has been caught 5 times. When I catch a tagged fish, I measure and weigh to track growth.

It took me a bit of practice to get the tags to feed properly in the gun but once you get the hang of it, it is easy.

By the way, I keep a bottle of rubbing alcohol with my gun and wipe the needle down to try to prevent infections, etc.

Frank