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What is the difference in using cutrine plus vs copper sulphate to kill - control pond weeds and algae?
I have some copper sulphate in granular form and some liquid citrine plus, I just wonder what the difference were as far as effects on fish, temperature range that they work, long term effects etc...

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Like you said, one is granular and one is liquid. That is the difference. I wouldn't try to read anything more into it than that. As I understand it, the liquid is for the rafts of the broken free fil.algae that is floating, and the granular is for prevention of same from happening.

I have used the liquid in the past, but I don't do it now. Personally, I'd rather put in $45 worth of Aquashade every month to keep out the demons, and so far it has worked. I do keep a pointed stake handy on the dock, in case one of those demons decides to rise up out of the depths and surface, thereby scaring the women and children, but generally I intend to stick with the aquashade as a preventive.

Good luck with it.

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fins, do a little searching here for algae control. Lots of information has been presented about dealing with filamentous algae. It can be more complicated that Tom presented. First you have to determine which basic type of algae you have; planktontic (microscopic suspended) or fialmentous (cottony hairy masses). I assume that you are talking about filamentous. Most people commonly have filamentous algae problems.

There are some things in the old post topics that you can do to help prevent filamentous growths and ways to use less chemical to treat it. Example - explore barley straw and dye (shading) (i.e. search) as alternatives to chemcial herbicides for control of filamentous algae.

To get back to some answers to your questions. Copper sulfate (CuSO4) is quicker acting but more harmful to the pond ecosystem overall than Cutrine. Usually more CuSO4 is needed to treat algae than if Cutrine were used and since both have copper as active ingredient, CuSO4 applications result in more copper metal being deposited in the pond sediment/mud. Copper is a heavy metal and in the pond sediment it does not go away(deteriorate, decompose). Metals are stable in the environment.

Different species of fish have different sensitivities to the copper. Trout, Minnows, grass carp, koi are very sensitive to copper and small amounts will kill them. Whereas bass are fairly tolerant of copper ions and are last to die due to copper poisoning. Cutrine is "buffered" and not as toxic to fish as CuSO4. Alkalinity and total hardness of your water also has an affect on how toxic copper is to fish. Higher alkalinity levels equals less toxicity.

Typically label information requires the water to be 60F for best treatment results. However at 60F the bass and at 65F the bluegill start spawning. CuSO4 is pretty toxic to eggs & fry of bass and bluegill. Adults are less sensitive to active copper ions of CuSO4 than the smallest fish. Cutrine is safest to use if fish are spawning.

Lots more infornation can be learned if you do a search for algae control or Cutrine or copper sulfate.

In addition, Cutrine is available in liquid AND granular formulations. Each has benefits for use depending on the type of algae problem. Always spend a little time and read the label for instructions when using pond chemicals. GreenClean is a new granular algacide that does not contain copper and is supposed to be a safer product for treating algae. Search for that topic, it has also been discussed here, including words by a GreenClean representative.


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Bill is correct about the toxicity of CuSO4 on fish. And, it is available in liquid and granulated forms.

The Cutrain is preferred over standard granulated copper in hard water ponds. It will "stay in solution" longer and lack for better words, kill the algae in that type of water conditions.

The best difference is the pounds of active ingredients in each (a.i.)

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Mostly the trouble is with filamentous algae.
I have tried barley straw with little success.
The copper sulfate granules are easy because I just scatter some in the area's the algae is growng from.
I will try the cutrine-plus, I will put some in a pump up prayer (diluted with about 9 parts water to cutrine) and spay-squirt it on the algae under water. Is that the best way?

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Fins,

The best way is to use the application rates suggested by the company. We at ATI have had good success using liquid copper at 5 gallons/treatment acre. **NOTE: DO NOT TREAT MORE THAN 1/2 OF THE LAKE PER TREATEMENT OR YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD CHANCE OF KILLING YOUR FISH**

To get your perimeter treatment acres: Treatment perimeter x treatment width / 43,560.

To get your Total Treatment Surace Acres: Entire length x entire width / 43560

If you choose to use the granulated CuSO4, do not exceed .015lbs / perimeter feet. And, again, do not treat more than 1/2 of your lake at a time.

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Fins,

I don't have time to describe the difference in CuSO4 and Cutrine, but I'll tell you from a professional's point of view...we don't use anything but Cutrine due to the less toxic properties and effectiveness of Cutrine. It's not as cheap as copper sulfate, but there is a reason for that.

Remember one thing...copper sulfate and Cutrine are not the same thing. Cutrine is a chelated copper which is much less toxic than CuSO4. Cutrine sells a granular form (not copper sulfate) as well. I recommend the use of Cutrine for all algae treatments (requiring copper)...otherwise use Green Clean.

Do your homework before performing the application.

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The only successes I have heard using Barley straw were associated with early treatment. It was always used in a preventative manner ie: it must be applied early in the spring before the algae appears.


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fins, You are applying granular/crystal copper sulfate incorrectly when you say ""The copper sulfate granules are easy because I just scatter some in the area's the algae is growng from."" CuSO4 is a contact killer and when you apply by spreading granules two things occur. 1. you have to use too much to get an effecive kill and 2. the granules sink to the bottom and minimal affect occurs as the granule dissolves and remineralizes in just the immediate area of each granule.

If you are using CuSO4 for filamentous algae you are supposed to put it in a porus bag (sock or cloth bag) and drag the bag around on the end of a long stick or pole in the zone where the algae is growing. Remember CuSO4 is a CONTACT killer AND it does not prevent any new growth. As the CuSO4 dissolves the copper cloud mixes among the algae filaments and if done correctly a lesser amount of CuSO4 kills it. When you use this technique ideally you should buy CuSO4 in the largest particles, pieces or granules possible. The best type is the one that has a mixture of pieces the size of peas to dimes or pennies. It is sometimes hard to find but it is definately the best to use when using the draging-treatment method. It takes longer for the larger pieces to dissolve and you can then travel further distances before the amount of CuSO4 in the bag is all dissolved. I tell people to split the dose into 2 or 3 amounts so all of it is not dissolving at the same time thus it lasts longer with less product. Done this way you can treat a whole lot of shoreline with just 3 to 5 pounds of CuSO4. It only takes a very little amount of the dilute CuSO4 cloud to kill algae.

Obviously the finer the CuSO4 granules the faster it dissolves and you do not want it to dissolve fast. Since the metalic copper carbonate accumulates in the sediment, the less you have there the healthier your pond sediments will be. Dead, toxic sediments are bad.

The label says granular Cutrine-Plus and GreenClean granules are supposed to be applied as broadcasting the granules over the area that contains filamentous algae growths.

If the filamentous algae is floating on the surface you are supposed to spray the mats with either Cutrine-Plus liquid or dissolved/liquid CuSO4. Personally I prefer to remove as much of the floating algae as possible then treat just what is remaining. That way you do not have all that dead algae decaying in the pond and recycling the nutrients back to feed more algae growth AND you ultimately use less herbicide since you are treating less filamentous algae. If you do a good enough job of removing the filamentous algae, often times there is not enough algae left to be worth treating. Sometimes the algae grows back and sometimes the pond conditions are such that filamentous algae does not return right away. The amount of available nutrients present, the water clarity and competition from other plants determine if the algae returns or not.


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fins,

Sorry for the somewhat flippant post, but I feel like I have gone 12 rounds with fil. algae, and I know if I let my guard up it will come back with a vengeance. Thus, my suggestion of using aquashade as a preventive. Since I am only dealing with my pond, versus many people here who are pros, I can only comment on what has worked for me personally.

I also was an avid user of cutrine plus, in fact, there are still a couple of gallons on the shelf in the barn. But I have decided I would rather keep the chemicals to a minimum, and so the aquashade.

On a regular basis, I go around my one acre pond with a 10 prong pitch fork and drag up the algae onto the bank. Then I throw it into the back of the mule and dump it somewheres back in the woods.

During that process, you can get up close and personal with your pond. You can see what's happening along the edge going back about 4 feet. You can rescue the baby bg's and throw em back, you can rescue the little crawfish and them em back, you can have a good look at whatever critters are habitating along the shoreline. You can watch the bass hit the baby's you just have rescued (sorry), and generally you can forget about what's going on in the rest of the world.

Personally, I find the whole ecosystem fascinating, and a nice diversion from what I do for a living.

Oh ya, I forgot the reason I posted this reply, in case anyone is still with me, is what do the bg's and lmb do about the layer of algae on the bottom when they are making their spawning beds. Do they just fan it away, or do they lay their eggs right on top of it.

Anyway, I think I have gone on enough, so have a good evening.

Tom Parker

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As Tom noted, it is truly amazing what you drag up out of the pond when raking out FA. I have frequently gotten a bunch of pea-sized snails to throw back in for the RES.


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tom - Nest spawners generally need a pretty clean depression area for spawning. The male fish works diligently to "clean" all lose materials from the nest area, thus dead algae will almost always be removed from the nest site. If algae is in the nest it may not be an active nest.

TO ALL READERS: I found this very interesting information about copper sulfate. How soon will the EPA of other states follow the state of Washington's lead?.
Copper Compounds - Copper compounds are no longer allowed for aquatic use in Washington state waters except under the NPDES permit for Irrigation Districts.


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Bill, thanks for the info. So the male takes care of that himself. I was wondering if I had to put on my mask and snorkel and clean it out for him; then arrange some soft music, maybe a select bottle of wine, some aquatic flowers, and a punch list of what he's supposed to do next.

That's a relief

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Fins, here is a recommendation from someone who treats ponds on a regular basis in the state of Ohio. I use Cutrine Plus in the liquid form 99% of the time. In regards to algae, there are many different types and you don't have to be an expert to treat them.
When treating with Cutrine, mix 3 parts water to 1 part Cutrine and spray directly on the Algae. If you have any problems with the algae not dying or not getting the control you want you can us another chemical with it. It is call Reward and it can be mixed with the Cutrine at a 0.5 part. So ex. mix 3 qt. of water + 1 qt. of Cutrine + 0.5 qt. of Reward.
With that being said, you should be using Grass Carp and a bottom based diffused aeration system. I am amazed at how many people don't have Grass Carp stocked in their pond. They do an excellent job once your water starts warming up. Don't get me wrong they are not miracle workers. They are typically good for about 5 years. So make sure you are restocking them periodically.
For the record, if any professional recommends using barley to kill algae, they can be fined big time! It is not for farm ponds! Water garden ponds fine......


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Here's a scenario for the forum.

I've got a 1/2 acre pond that I've been fertilizing to produce a bloom. This pond has a history of filamentous algae problems. Now I have a bloom but still have filamentous algae around the banks in shallow water.

Tried a really light dose of cutrine targeted to filamentous algae because I want to keep the bloom, but lost a lot of the bloom and filamentous algae still a problem.

The dilemma:
Use cutrine to control filamentous algae and lose plankton bloom, or use copper sulfate on filamentous algae and keep the bloom. Since application rates for control of planktonic algae with cutrine are about 1/2 that for control of filamentous algae, how do we effectively use cutrine for selective control of filamentous but not planktonic algae.

I feel that if I'd diluted copper sulfate and targeted filamentous algae in this pond I'd have kept my planktonic algae bloom...or that it would have returned within a few days.

Details: treatment rate with cutrine was 1/4 gallon in 2 acre-feet of water. I would have used 5 lbs of copper sulfate had I known the consequences.

This treatment with cutrine was done on an experimental basis, because of the posts on this thread. I think next time I will try diluted copper sulfate and see how the respective algae reacts. It is cheaper, works quicker without residual concentrations in the water comumn, and seems to give better results in this type of situation. I'm not concerned so much with residual copper in pond sediments. I'm interested in a planktonic algae bloom with minimal filamentous algae, so we can harvest the pond without problems.


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I have used copper sulfate in the situation you described and it killed my plankton bloom and I used it in low rate only where the FA was. I have also had the opposite result. I have been told that hydrated lime put on FA near the pond edge will kill FA. I have tried that in a very small area sample experiment and it worked
















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EWEST, thank you for that potential nuggett of fish-farming gold!!! We'll try it tomorrow. I was so wrapped up in HSB thread that I almost forgot to check this post. I hope it works. I'll post results for you and for the others.


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I used 1 gal. Cutrine plus in my 1/2 Ohio pond about every 6 weeks last year with visible results in just a few hours. I diluted with water as the label describes and sprayed the areas that FA was growing with a pump sprayer. TIP: set the pump sprayer nozzle to stream to reduce wind drift.




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BJ, I'm interested in the concentration you recommend for C+ . . . The MSDS recommends 0.6 USG per acre foot, and I usually put 3/4 to a full gallon in a 50-gallon sprayer and spray the whole [7/10 acre) pond. Doing 1:3 sounds like a whole lot of extra chemical, unless I'm missing something.

Also re. grass carp, my experience has been that there are very good reasons not to stock them (witness the variety of places where they are illegal). Most relevant here in Ohio, where they are legal, they are very inefficient eaters of algae and very efficient eaters, especially when young, of many ornamentals, lilies, etc. (although happily not water iris). Obviously for those not trying to garden the margins of the pond, this is not so much of an issue.

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Do you dilute the Cutrine Plus when using the liquid form. I am experimenting with something new......traditionally a copper sulfate user. I am assuming a pump sprayer works just fine?? thanks for any advice.


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Its been a while since I've used the liquid but I "think" it is 9 parts water to one part Cutris Plus liquid. In other words, 1/10 chemical to 9/10 water.


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thanks djstauder. some in the above comments said 3 parts water to 1 part CP but that sounded too strong to me. Having a very frustrating time controlling F Algae this spring and have a touch of coontail in one of the smaller ponds I am attempting to manage. I keep reading about detrimental longer term effects of using C Sulphate so trying something a little different.


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It makes no difference how much water you mix it with. The water does nothing and is just a carrier. The important thing is to use the correct amount of Cutrine for the area you are treating. I don't like mixing it strong because it is easy for me to run out of the spray mix before I cover the desired area. I mix 1/2 gal of Cutrine with 10 gallons of water and try to disperse it evenly over half my pond from by luxury pontoon boat. That beauty is a massive 6ft. by 8ft all aluminum flat deck propelled by a water churning 35 pound thrust trolling motor I bought as is at a yard sale for 2 bucks.

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Originally Posted By: Inland Island
BJ,

Also re. grass carp, my experience has been that there are very good reasons not to stock them (witness the variety of places where they are illegal). Most relevant here in Ohio, where they are legal, they are very inefficient eaters of algae and very efficient eaters, especially when young, of many ornamentals, lilies, etc. (although happily not water iris).


Grass carp are for eating plants other than algae. A good combination for eating algae are KOI with some Israeli carp. Then to control the off spring of these two fish requires large mouth bass or some similar predator. Natural pond management. Or chemicals.



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