Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Dunns Fish Farm

Here's some information for discussion, from Dunn's website:

Coppernose Bluegill are ideal for ponds where forage is a concern because they are usually 80% female. Coppernose Bluegill are aggressive but remain a low impact fish since their mouths are small. Coppernose Bluegill are available on our route trucks or for special delivery.

Considered by many to be one of the most enjoyable fish to angle, Largemouth Bass are the most sought after fish on the market today. When stocked properly with an adequate supply of Hybrid Bluegill and Fathead Minnows, these fish may grow as much as 1 to 1 1/2 pounds per season

(Hybrid Bluegill)
This fish will reproduce twice per year which makes it ideally suited for feeding a new or existing bass population. However, this fish will reproduce at 90% male so it won't take over your pond like most bream. It will feed on a commercial feed with annual growth rates of up to 1/2 to 3/4 pound per season. With a good management program in place these fish can reach weights of 2 to 2 1/2 pounds and exceptional fish will reach the weight of 3 pounds or greater! Make the Hybrid Bluegill a part of your management program and reap the rewards for years to come.

The worse decision we made with our original stocking program was buying off a “fish truck”.

They were pushing hybrid bluegill but we were smart enough to decline and bought CNBG instead. It turned out they had Hybrid BG mixed with then anyway

Worse/best decision was then to stock adult LMB and luckily they cleaned out the BG/ HBG mix stocking, although we have since caught an occasional HBG.

Not D#####’s but A######## Fish Stockers …

Since then our policy is to buy adult stockers – CNBG and HSB - from reliable sources only.

George Glazener

I have seen a few strange things about lepomis ( BG , HBG, RES, GG )stated but never seen CNBG described as anything other than a
Florida subspecies of BG. They are not hybrids and in all the studies I have seen have normal M/F ratios and spawn like regular BG (no 80% female). I wonder if the website has a mistaken write up or if something else is at work.

I have posted before my approach to buying fish " ONLY REPUTABLE HATCHERIES THAT I TRUST & KNOW , WHO HAVE SOMETHING TO LOOSE AND I CHECK BEHIND THEM WHEN THE FISH ARRIVE" I will find and post data on CNBG.

Texas Pub.
http://www.bio.utexas.edu/courses/bio354l/projects/1998/Patina_Mendez/Lepomis_macrochirus.html

Three subspecies of L. macrochirus are recognized, however specific geographic boundaries are not distinct to separate them. L. macrochirus macrochirus is usually found in Arkansas and the Red River drainages that include Oklahoma, Texas and Arkansas. L. macrochirus purpurescens resides in peninsular Florada and the Atlantic Slope. L. macrochirus speciosus is present in West Texas and Mexico. All of these species integrate with each other and sometimes are not distinct subspecies. The distinguishing character which sets each of these apart aside from color variation is the number of anal fin rays present.L. m. purpurescens has 12 anal rays, L. m. macrochirus has 11 anal fin rays, and L. m. speciosus has 10 anal fin rays. (1

Hmmm...my natural reaction when someone questions what another has said, especially as it relates to business, is to let the first person explain themselves to the "jury" which includes the original questioning person.

Thus my own invitation to Ken to join the Forum and explain the GG claims. Now, I received so much flack and personal condemnation from that invitation, even accusations of deliberately trying to undermine pros on the board, that I'm not inclined to do that again...not because it is/was wrong to ask to see the other view, but because some folks... well you decide for yourselves why the outrage some people had that Ken could be allowed to even present his views on this Forum, right or wrong.

If someone were to invite Dunn's to explain their management strategy, I'd be most interested to read it and comment on it. I believe in the direct approach and in letting people, especially when a business concern is being questioned, explain their position so that others can make up their own mind.

ML, you echo my thoughts. I do believe that ewest is most correct regarding the CNBG info.
I was witholding comment to see if this post would be bombarded with negative comments, as with the Ken's hatchery ads. I haven't seen nearly the same reactions. Maybe more time is needed, just in case people are actually working or fishing on this beautiful Friday.

I thought that there were (have been) positive comments about Dunn's on the forum by a number of posters. I will have to check that. Maybe they can chime in here.

ML, with all due respect, (and I mention this only because you brought it up):

Why didn't you comment in a similar fashion when the Free Fish Truck Guy, Rex Curtis DBA Delta Supreme Fish Farms, was getting flamed, in regards to him being able to defend his business and reputation?

"Fly By Night" isn't just a song by Rush.

Maybe I should clarify. I'm not saying that the Free Fish Truck guy is really reputable or not really reputable. In no way am I defending the guy, nor am I suggesting that the forum owes this guy a single thing.

Sunil,

I have no problem with your question. Dunn's has been in business a long time I believe, correct me if I'm wrong. If the post had been posed as a question regarding general stocking philosophy, I wouldn't have said anything except to comment on my own views of that philosophy...but it was clearly labeled as Dunn's philosophy that was questioned. Hence, seems like Dunn's deserves a chance to defend their philosophy....and let the "jury" decide.

Maybe I'm wrong here, and that is entirely possible, but I don't believe they are in the same class as the free fish guy. If that is what is being implied, then I'm not part of that discussion. Just like Ken's, I've never bought a fish in my life from Dunn's but understood them to be a reputable long standing place of business. It's just a principle of mine that a person/business has a right to explain themselves and that we as consumers, should hear that explaination before making judgements. I believe hearing the other view is always preferable to one side only. I guess that's just my other view.

So far (not finished with search) this is the only post I have found from someone with actual exp. with fish from above source. Others just state 2nd hand exp. This is not the post I recall so I will keep looking.

Dudley Landry
Lunker
Member # 842

posted March 26, 2004 09:42 PM
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Dunn's does deliver. A few years ago I went to their pick-up point to get five pounds of fathead minnows I had ordered from Dunn's. I then drove east seventy miles to my home and stopped at the nearby home of our Justice of the Peace who graciously accompanied me to my pond. We adjusted a scale to compensate for the weight of a collinder and poured the minnows into the collinder. Amazingly, while all the minnows survived that seventy mile trip, they weighed only three and one half pounds. Doing the math, those minnows had to lose 0.342857 ounce per mile. Evidently, if I had had to drive two hundred thirty three miles, I would have had only one third of an ounce of minnows left. The only conclusion I've been able to reach is that if I had driven west, those minnows would probably have gained weight. Had I lived north or south? Take a guess. I really haven't been able to figure out any of it.

[ March 26, 2004, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Dudley Landry ]

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Second post located with same manner as above. Still not the one I recall.

Ross Baker
Lunker
Member # 2077

Member Rated:
posted January 19, 2006 08:49 AM
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On the Dunn's people...I ordered from them before I found this forum. In my experience, the folks you talk to in the office give pretty sound advice. As for the guys on the trucks, I believe they are guys on commission out to sell fish. I have heard people buying bass from them also wanting CNBG as forage for the bass be told that they are sold out this trip & that "hybrid BG are better that CNBG". They "may" grow bigger & reportly haul alot better, but are darn sure not better forage for bass. The first time it was me on the buying end, the second I was picking ip some FH's and overheard the conversaton with another customer. A different driver in each instance. It is definetly a "buyer beware world"!

I am the product of another generation when a man was only as good as his word – a handshake was a deal, and a person’s reputation was worth more than money.

Unfortunately times have changed – but I haven’t….!

I will determine the reputation of the individual by seeking the opinion of others that I trust – call it the “good ole boy’s club” if you wish, but I do business with only those who meet this criteria.

Sorry, but I’m not going to give the peddlers the first voice in the argument.

This forum serves a valuable service by weeding out the snake oil salesmen.

Just my thoughts…..
George Glazener

George,
You express my thoughts as well!
Good post!

ML, you've read my post correctly.

I was just curious as to the reasoning to come to someone's defense vs. another's.

I may comment more, but have to leave for now.

Pleasant evenings, Gentlemen.

Okay, so you guys believe Dunn's are snake oil peddlers comparable to the free fish guy. Sorry, I thought they deserved a chance to defend themselves. I didn't realize they were such terrible crooks. Thanks for setting me straight.

ML :

I don't know if they are or are not like the free fish guy. Like you I am not in favor of bashing folks with out solid factual first person info. I do think that I saw a positive post on them but can't find it for now. I thought someone knew and met the primary owner and knew they did good work. But I could be wrong and it may have been someone else or a different hatchery in Ark. I think your approach is correct but I don't want to argue with them if the above info is what they really believe.

BTW how is the Kid's pond (little Theo,ewest... and the rest) doing?

I think where the confusion/rub lies is in the info on stocking and gender % and such. 80% female for CNBG is obviously not correct. I saw some other suspicious stocking combos also. I have been to their web site numerous times and have never even noticed the errors, except for after reading this post. There are some problems with it.
As I have said before, you cant protect people from themselves. Now days anything goes in advertising. Notice that every auto commercial has a disclaimer at the bottom because some da fool will try and duplicate what they see on TV.

ML,
We don't have evidence they are comparable to the "free fish guy". Just that they are somewhat disingenuous.

My two cents worth:

I don't believe IMHO that there is a right OR wrong answer here. I do agree with ML and others that a "jury trial" can't be conducted without a defendant present, but I also believe that some of you have been "burnt" before (in some cases more than once).
From a business point of view marketing is key. In fact, I have been spending my 25th and 26th hours of each day trying to rework both our catalog and our website so that both are fact based and neither misconstrued. That being said I have not seen Dunn's site. We have in the past purchased fish (rosy reds I think, but don't quote me on that) from them, but we sent our truck to their farm to pick up these orders.
In the early years Ken tried the whole "peddle the fish" thing, and that resulted in more problems than anything else. You get a driver out on the road who has no proper stocking experience, and all he sees are $ signs when selling. That is why we now book orders ahead of schedule, discuss proper stocking strategies with the customer, and then route our truck directly to the individual ponds. Our drivers do present catalogs to the customers (as well as anyone else who stops the truck in route), they have products on board like ocean blue or microblift should the customer request it, but they refer the customer back to me for questions or further stocking. Often times someone will see the truck on the highway and call into the office to request info. We do not do the "stop at the farm depo" to sell our fish, but that does not mean that it does not work for others. It just means that after 40 plus years Ken has refined his approach to stocking individual ponds.
Back to Dunn's I don't recall any negatives from our experience, but then again we dealt straight with the office and not the drivers.
Maybe they SHOULD be invited to this forum. I know that I have learned more in the past few months here than in the past two years as an employee at Ken's. When stuck in one area of the country it is hard to tune in to other areas and the way things are done differently.
You all have given me a chance to express my stance, my opinions, and my attempt at humor. But more than anything else you all have given me knowledge and drive that I would not have found in any textbook or seminar.
I thank each and every one of you for that.

Deb

Todd was not trying to say these people are dishonest. I brought it to his attention and he thought that that it might be a good discussion topic. Most of the regulars here understand that you can't grow quality LMB by stocking HBG, they simply don't produce enough forage. I think it would be important for someone that is new to pond stocking and thats wants a balanced LMB fishery, to know that this company's recommended stocking program would not get them there. I think Todd figured there would be enough discussion that a forum newbie or lurker would not get misled. If their intentions are honorable, they should be sure to have the correct facts before they are posted on their website.

I have known Dunn's for a long time. Their philosophies and mine have differed since day one. When Pond Boss magazine was being born, I invited owner/editor Mark McDonald to visit a number of hatcheries with me. We made appointments at three Oklahoma hatcheries a month early, then confirmed a week ahead. We made each appointment on time. When we got to Dunn's, we saw Jack Dunn through his office window, sitting at his desk, reading. We came into the reception area, announced who we were to the receptionist, and she went into Mr. Dunn's office. After a few minutes, she came out and told us he would not see us. I looked at Mark, he looked at me, and we told the lady our appointment had been set for a month, and Mark had driven more than 200 miles to make that appointment. She went back in, came back out, announced that he wouldn't see us. Needless to say, we were puzzled. Later, no phone call, no explanation. To this day, no explanation. That spoke volumes. I had been in business for 12 years at that time, and Mark was creating Pond Boss, and I had a bit of a relationship with them at the time.
I have read their propaganda, and don't agree with it.
Two years ago, Pond Boss had a booth at a trade show in Mesquite, Texas, and Dunn's salesman approached us, took a magazine, and we visited for a while. He came around several times during the show's run. Quite a friendly guy. On the last day, he suggested they may want to advertise in the magazine. I told him my policy was to make sure our advertisers meet some strong qualifications. He looked a bit puzzled. I explained that Pond Boss and Dunn's were philosophically opposed and some of their stocking and management recommendations were completely opposed to the industry standards, and our standards. I told him we weren't inclined to let them advertise, because what they represent wasn't what we want our readers to believe. He invited me to write a letter to David Dunn (after he conferred with David by cell phone) and pose the same direct questions I had posed at the show. I spent two hours writing a thoughtful letter, asking questions in a professional way. I emailed them to the salesman, David Dunn and his sister, who's involved in the business. None of them ever replied, so I emailed again. Then, again. I never got the courtesy of a reply. I take that as a stance. Therefore, Dunn's doesn't advertise, they don't come to this forum, and it suits me just fine. If they won't answer my questions one on one, then I don't care for them to be here.
There is nothing to gain with their input. They have had several chances to explain themselves, and have chosen not to. As a matter of fact, the only reason I leave their name anywhere on this site is because it comes from our educated audience, based on their knowledge and/or experience.
Meadowlark, I don't think they are crooks. They wouldn't have been in business as long as they have been if they were. It's hard to argue with the minnow shortage on that one sale, but their biggest sin, in my opinion, is not defending themselves two years ago, and before, when PB was born.
For the record, I have come in behind them many times to clean up a mess. I'll never forget one lady, a new widow who was keeping a promise to her husband to stock a pond he had built. The three acre pond sat in a gulley, between two tall hills. She had stocked 3,000 hybrid sunfish, 50 pounds of fathead minnows, 1,000 bass and 1,000 crappie. I was stunned when she called and explained what she did. A local NRCS conservationist suggested she call me and ask my advice about what she had done. I went to her house, looked at her pond, read the list of fish, and did the best I could to console her. She was sick about it. Together, we came up with a plan, but she really needed to rotenone and start over. We did some remedial stocking, and she got her sons to help her manage the pond, and the damage was minimized.
Keep in mind, they are in the business to sell fish. That's what they do. If a buyer doesn't do their homework, and know what fish to stock, they must share in the responsibility of bad advice. I know, I know, one wants to believe what they are told by a reputable company. Caveat emptor. That's a huge reason we created this site, the fair and honest exchange of information to help people.

I had two thoughts after reading Bob's post:

1) That sounded a whole lot like the Bible scam from "Paper Moon."

2) Maybe EVERYONE hates to have to clean up someone else's mess as much as I do.

Deb :

You can have a jury trial without the defendant present. It is done all the time in civil matters and even in criminal ones. Any business person will tell you that a lot of marketing is BS and or hype. Some is not. That is why there are consumer protection acts (laws) which give consumers the right to rescind purchases and it is why there is the Latin phrase caveat emptor ( let the buyer beware) as a legal principle. There is a wrong answer and it involves anyone who comes on the forum and gives obviously wrong (not debatable but wrong) info for their on purposes to those who may read here and not know better. I would not want to be such a person because of the reply I believe they would get. As DD has said , this is a pretty smart crowd and it is not easy to fool them. IMO it would not be good to invite a reply from the party in question if they really believe what is posted. It would only cause problems for them and the forum and could get ugly. If you want to know more send me a PM and I can provide more (not about the party but the situation). Sometimes it is better to leave sleeping dogs alone.

Ewest I see your point. Like I said earlier we have only had one or two experiences with them. After reading Bob's post above it stands to reason that they should be left "out of the loop". On the other hand I want to thank all of you again for allowing me to be part of this family. Granted the GG posts have been hot headed at times, but you all have aided both myself and my company towards some changes. From what Bob mentioned above I am not so sure the same results would come about if Dunn's entered the picture.
You all have been very helpful in "teaching" me about this business. Our views will not always be the same, but I hope like hell that I will be allowed to stay on board to both learn and offer a wee bit in return.

Deb :

Don't worry you are part of the family -- just don't try to sell us anything like a coonhoundello fishing dog.