Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Building a dam Principal spillway logic

Here's a link to the soil conditioner http://www.bobcat.com/products/att/soilcondition.html

Thanks for the tips on the grass stuff, guys. I'm working a few angles on that one...will fill ya in later.
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OK, some more pond-improvement and progress reports. The sand beach is in...pretty dang cool. This is another facet that came together well because of the PB support unit/beach team. We flagged an area of 40' wide x 90' long. The 90' part is 1/2 in the water, 1/2 out. I had John use the scraper and he grabbed some of the bounteous good clay, then laid out a berm around the 40' x 90' perimeter I flagged. He left the bottom berm off so we could back the semi's and tri's up to dump, starting at the top and working down. The boss and I went out last weekend and picked up the non-woven geotextile fabric roll, 15' x 300' (kudos to Ryan Freeze for the geo-tex. lead). We cut it up into 7 pc x 43', laid out 2 pc at the top of the beach zone, and rolled up the other 5 and laid 'em to the side.

We brought in 160 tons of builder's sand...nice stuff. Just before the last load, John built up the bottom berm with the scraper; I told him to double it's height and width. Then the last load of sand. As Ewest noted and promoted in one of the beach threads, it's like a sandbox with elevated sides. We poured a min of 8" thick but it ran to 10" in some areas.


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Then, today, I hooked up the trailer one mo' time and headed for the pipe manufacturer. Yep, settled on 18" for the principal spillway; one pipe. Heck, let's go for some efficiency with the gas money...throw the PVC tree stumps in the back of the PU, too.

When I got there, John had already cut thru the top of the dam and set elevation for the first 20' of the run. Then, the balance is down-hill following the terrain.

Oooo boy...and I got to run the kangaroo on steroids. We layered in crumbs of the clay spoil and I got to wrestle one more cage-match with the jumpin' jack plate compactor. Anyway, she be done. One hooded inlet is on the drawing board, and that should do it.

nice pics once again,
awesome beach, nice spillway engineering....i would be inclinced to place rip rap protection around intake, would help to minimize any erosion and protect exposed portion of pipe.

not knowing really anything about precip, watershed, and max flows in your area, that "little" pipe would be overwhelmed in my canyon. our max flows come close to filling a 20 ft wide , 4 ft high concrete spillway.

looks like you'll have a nice calm water body year round, as opposed to our violent water catching puddle. if i put a beach in it wouldnt survive past one storm.

Remember Brettski has a watershed with lots of forest (maybe almost all). The (immediate) runoff from well established woods is just a fraction of what grassland runoff would be. And grassland runoff is in turn slower than cropland runoff.

Theo's got it mostly right. First of all, I am only dealing with about 60 ac of drainage. Most of if filters thru timber, though there is run-off from row-crops that is carried in thru 2 gentle draws thru the timber. The only undetermined volume is an 8" tile that brings in about 15 of 60 acres...I have yet to see it in action during significant rain.
It is safe to think that it may take a couple of years for this hole to fill up.

Theo, just pondering, doesnt water velocity increase dramatically going from large container to small container....still could get erosion around entrance to intake? just a thought. i have zero experience with that type of intake/spillway on pond, so maybe it would be total overkill to rock it in.....and its just my rocky inclinations?

Correct.

WRT guarding the overflow inlet: That's one place you know there's going to be water flow that may cause erosion. Depending on how often it overflows, good vegetaion could be enough, or it might require large (head-sized, by my way of thinking) rock. My drain entrance is a concrete box.

As Brettski indicatess, he probably has a little time to finalize his overflow entrance design before it gets used. Given his track record, I expect something attractive and adequately (or overly) defensive.

Well, last night I got my progress update from John, my dirt-guy...rain and slop; maybe tomorrow.
It did give me a chance to address the potential of erosion at the spillway. He wants me to install a hood at the inlet...an anti-vortex baffle. This is an easy one and shall be done. Past this, though, he sees no need for anything more than good vegetation establishment at the inlet side. There will be minimal wash of the embankment. This, and I have a less-than-ideal drainage volume; it is a non-issue. The other end, tho, is a different story.
This makes good sense to me, and I have to relent to his wisdom of years constructing many ponds. Yes, indeed, there will be volume water passage funneled into a small zone, but it will be moving in from within the pond. I don't see the physics of high volume rushing along the shoreline, sweeping it away. I see the volume coming from, well, the volume out it front. In my mind, I think about watching the exact scenario with a culvert or creek underpass of a road when it is handling high volume water passage. The front side is taking huge volume and the sticks and floating junk are collecting on either side in calmer pools. The only potential of the immediate shoreline washing would be if a whirlpool was created; this is mitigated with the baffle he recommends.

Your dirt guy is right on Brettski. The anti-vortex baffle will also help load the pipe with the decreased air intake. The other thing we do is drill holes in the ribs of the ads pipe that will have water contact. This will really help it from trying to push out or bow. Pond and Dam look great, hopefully it won't be long before you can start enjoying it.

EXCAVATION DONE!
I've said it before...I'll say it again. When we embarked on this journey, all we were looking for was a nice 3 or 4 acre hole with water that we could build a little cabin next to. Just look at what you guys did...shame on you! As my freight train was running outta control, my PB comrades continued to load the coal. I'm thinkin' about re-naming the Liberty Nature Preserve as the Silver Streak Ranch. The happy ending, albeit with empty pockets, is that when we got off at the station and looked back, the train we crafted during this ride has exceeded my wildest hopes, visions and dreams. Dining car, Club Car, Vista car, the works. It is, indeed, an awesome spectacle in my little world. I am very good with vision; X-ray spec's could not have prepared me for these results.
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These pic's are very similar to previous, only now they are complete in detail. To start, it might be easier to understand with another look at the aerial plan.

The dotted line is the driveway constructed last Summer. The light green lines are now completed as roadways and become dotted lines, also. The building site is about 1/2 Ac. The knoll is 1/4 Ac; the sand beach is the brown square within.
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This pic is from the building pad, looking to the dam. My sedan is parked on top of the dam 700 feet away. The completed 3600 sq ft sand beach is visible to the right, tucked up on a knoll that is notched into the woods. To the far right of frame the shallower wetland zone begins. The trenches, ditches, holes, and mounds are more visually prominent due to angle of the sun. Norm's ditch and Sunil's mound are visible, right of frame, between the beach and the water pocket. The wide, flat hump shooting directly away at center is 7 - 8 feet deep at normal pool. The balance of most of the deeper areas is around 12' with the 2 monster holes up front at around 19'-21'. The cuts, ditches, mounds, etc vary between 12' and 7'.

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It's kinda funny when I look back and consider something Bob Lusk told me when I first hit this forum last Fall. Now I understand. As cooperative, knowledgeable, honest, and a team player that my dirt-guy was, John had difficulty with boogerin' up the bottom. It didn't sit right. Seeing the exquisite quality of his final product helps me to understand. All the stuff above the bottom is his work. All the stuff at the bottom is the result of me winning at arm-wrestling.
(a look from the road as we near the the knoll; the same road runs across the dam at right, behind a point of Walnut and Cherry trees at the opposite side, and continues off to the left back to the launch and building site)

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...another simlar view; the estimate of soil moved in this entire area is 20K yds.

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This shot is taken from the knoll, looking across the beach and toward the building site in the distance.

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...a telephoto shot from the perimeter road, looking across to the knoll and the beach area.

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and, finally, a set of pics as we negotiate the last couple hundred feet of driveway on the way to the building site. The 2000 ft drive begins as 600 ft of meadow, then immersed into a wall of dense timber for the last 1400 ft. There is no clue or inkling what may be back there. (taken on an overcast day...sorry)

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...but, no rest for the wicked. The water clock is now ticking as I prepare to pour a concrete boat launch and the required piers to support 2 docks. Oh yeah, and a bunch of fish structure has to be placed.

Brettski,

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!

It looks amazing. Thank you for the updats and sharing your pictures.

One thing I missed somewhere was teh trench. What does it accomplish? Why did you put it in? Where was the discusion on it?

Thanks,
Eddie

I don't think the whole thing could be much prettier. What a work of art.

I can't wait to see the pictures when it's full of water!

It's going to be a beauty, my friend. Congrats! Can't wait to see it full of nice green water and some big'uns being held up for the camera.

Thank ya, Gent's.
Eddie...Norm's ditch and Sunil's mound are detailed a little more in the Bottomscaping thread.
I'm working with my NRCS agent and a local farmer to seed and develop the new green space that has been developed. I fully intend to utilize the W.H.I.P. program this coming Spring, but obviously cannot wait to protect erosion at the dam and many other surfaces througout the site. The goal is low maint. and high wildlife.

Well, on to the next project; the concrete work for 2 docks and a boat launch.
Jeesh, another reflection on the work that concrete guys do...truly more new-found respect! We have formed up the first pour of the launch. The rebar is laid within the forms, but not yet tied and put up on the bar chairs.

We have drilled ten 12" dia holes for the concrete piers that will support the dock that borders the launch for 44 feet with a 14" x 16" covered deck at the end. We have also installed small rebar cages within the concrete pier forms for added stability.

There another 8 more of these holes at the beach area for a smaller 20' x 10' "L" shaped dock. The 20' section runs along the edge of the sand beach (recommended by Ewest), and the 10' "L" section turns away at 90 degrees into a quick drop-off that will put it into 6-7 ft of water...a great place to temporarily tie up the Liberty Ferry.
Oh yeah...we aren't hurtin' for rain, either. The banks are runnin' little erosion channels and the rye is just startin' to sprout. Nothing too severe and we really got a gully washer a couple of days ago. The 1 acre area in front of the dam has about 4-5 feet of water. We gotta hustle up this concrete work and shift to the tire pyramids and PVC tree structures. The race with Mother Nature is on.
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**NOTE**
The "boat launch and dock construction" phase has been moved to this New Thread

Brettski,

That's a neat looking auger. Haven't used one like that but I bet it works great. I wonder if it is kind of tricky lifting back up out of the hole when down in heavy clay? Maybe it has a reverse?

You mentioned your race with Mother Nature and made me wonder if you have a need for ag. lime and if you have already applied that? I don't recall from past posts if you have the need, but if you need it and haven't applied it yet, that's another item in the race.

Brettski :

Do those things that require the lake to be down first , piers , lime , sand , rip-rap, dirt work etc. Then categorize the fish structure items and then lets go over them. You can do most of the fish structure (other than bottom scaping ) from the Liberty Ferry if needed. I can walk you through that and I know many others here have good info and experience to add also.

Uh-oh...lime, you say? For all the times I have read about it on the forum, it didn't even click with me that I, too, might have a P-h problem...?
So, what do I do next? I have absolutely nothing to this regard. I do have good dialogue and cooperation with my NRCS agent and office. Do I lean on him for testing? What is the quickest, down n' dirty way to test and resolve?
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Meadowlark,
Oyyy! My whole body is one big ache (don't even go there, Theo ) This one is called a Ground Hog. It is a 5.5 HP Honda on a slip clutch. The drive arm is a shaft on a U-joint to the gear driven head. No, it doesn't have a reverse...wish it did! I once used a very similar unit that was powered with a hydraulic pump at the engine and hoses to a hydraulic motor at the drive head. That one worked great and DID have a reverse; a priceless option. They are cumbersome on anything that is not flat. The worst part is, you guessed it, pulling it outta the hole. Then, if you have to add the 12" extension (another cumbersome time waster) to get past 36" deep, try pulling that mass directly up to exit the hole! I'm 6'-2" sumthin and I have to "clean and jerk" the handle to the top of my head to clear the hole. It's like Bow-flex in the dirt. Oh yeah, and hit a rock bigger than about 4" dia...or better yet, a root over 1" dia...double-Oyyy! All compounded by using a 12" dia drill into clay. Anyway, Donna-ski and I spent 11 hours working at the site on Sunday with a 30 min lunch break. I hope she keeps me.

i owned a two-man ground hog in my younger days, similar engine......no more......from here on out its a small bobcat or kubota (rental) w/ posthole digger if i have a lot of holes, and a digging bar and posthole digger if just a couple holes. its very very very easy to tweak the back w/ those ground hogs.....glad to hear you are still ambulatory.

if all yer heavy equipment guys are off site, perhaps its better (easier?, cheaper?) to wait and let pond fill, stabilize, monitor water chemistry (pH meters are relatively cheap), then add ag lime to water if needed?......lime experts?

Easier now to get spreader truck from Co-Op to spread lime now , if needed. They can back up to the pond in say about 6 places and turn on the spreader or if dry drive around pond bottom with spreaders on. It will wash to the deeper depth as it fills. Much easier than with a boat or barge later.

Go to the pond and get about 6 handfuls of dirt from the pond bottom from 6 different spots and put them in a plastic bag. Get dry dirt if possible.

Call your NRCS guy and ask him if he has made lime requirements for ponds or crops in your area. Is the area dirt acid.

Indiana
A&L Great Lakes Laboratories, Inc
3505 Conestoga Dr., Ft. Wayne, IN 46808
(260) 483-4759
www.algreatlakes.com
Soil test cost: $15.
Includes: Organic matter, available P, exchangeable K, Mg, Ca, soil pH, buffer pH and fertilizer recommendations.
To submit sample: Send in zip-lock bag to above address.
Common regional problems: High pH and low K.

http://www.agr.state.il.us/programs/summaryprogsvcs.html

http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/soiltest/

Thank you, oh great Link-master.
What are the nominal values that I am looking for?

Great question !! I can tell you a little about alkalinity in ponds and give some great links but as I told Russ in the link below, I don't know how to make the jump from dirt measurements to water. I would be interested to know. Our Extension service runs the tests on dirt and you tell them for pond mgt. and they give the breakdown and recommendations. Minimum total alkalinity in pond water is 20 ppm ( mg/L) but much higher is better as the optimum for LMB is 200 ppm for example.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001081;p=5#000072


Liming Ponds for Aquaculture

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/13092343-4100fs.pdf


Interactions of pH, Carbon Dioxide,
Alkalinity and Hardness in Fish Ponds

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/13092343-464fs.pdf

Brettski,

Yeah, my back started aching when I saw those pictures. I can imagine how yours must have felt. Without a reverse, that looks like a very tough operation.

Regarding the need for ag. lime. I'll give you my approach and experience....which, as you know isn't necessarily applicable outside my area. First, soil sample will tell you roughly how much, if any, ag. lime is needed per acre. As related to lime, I use the same recommendations that are needed for growing pasture/hay same as for the ponds....this does not apply to fertilizer, but for lime. In my area 4-5 tons per acre is standard...don't even need a soil test here.

I apply that amount to the pond under construction. I always use spreader trucks and the spread cost runs $30 to $40 per ton. After the pond fills and stabilizes somewhat I do my own water test...check for ph, alkalinity, and hardness. Normally the lime operation that was done before pond filling will have everything in a good range. Ph just over 7 (7.4 is the ph of fish blood which is ideal to match and a good ph range is 6.5 to 9), and alkalinity and hardness around 100 and close to the same in absolute value(needs to be above 20 mg/l and under 200 mg/l). If more lime is needed, which it usually isn't for me, I then add as needed according to 50 pound bags.

Anyone farming in your local area can give you a pretty good idea of wether or not ag. lime is needed. However, a good soil test is the best way I know of. If you need it, now is the time to apply. It should last you at least 5 years...or it does in my case. When I need it again, I just repeat the process by spreading in the watershed area of pond and directly to the pond itself. Works for me!

That's my 2 cents on lime...and save that back in the future for all those big fish you are going to pull from your new lake!

Eric/Brettski,

In reference to your comment about soil samples vs. water samples, I found a local lab that does pond water analysis. Currently, I'm working on a small stone dam for the BG pond. Once this is completed, my next project will be the water analysis. I will update my BG thread once I receive the lab results.

Brettski,

Hats off to you my friend. What a great read your pond project has been!! Thanks for posting your progress.