Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose BRES

I have an order for some of these from Jones fish. The girl that took my order says that these bluegill redear hybrids they have found out are 50% males 50% females. Almost everything I have read has them at over 90% males. What do you guys that have stocked them have to say about that. I am putting these in a brand new 1/2 acre pond. I will go with regular hybrids if this is the case that they are 50/50.

50/50 for the sex ratio of F1 BG-RES is news to me. Has me scratching my head and questioning the girl that took your order. Maybe a tale the wives have manufactured at Jones?

The webpage dedicated to this hybrid at Jones says 95% to 100% male. Childers reported 97% male. They probably trying to account for statistical variation of random samples by giving a range around that number. I seriously doubt they have ever sexed any of them.

https://shop.joneslakemanagement.co...cklebelly-sunfish?variant=39253832695850

Thank you for the response. She said in their new catalogs that that 95% male will be edited out. She said that her customers are reporting prolific spawning with the specklebellies that they sold to them.

Hmmm ... again this is news to me. I would just say that BG-RES even if they are 97% male still need a predator. They will reproduce way too much without predator fish. Also, in a case where they are stocked with other species that will readily mix with them, their offspring will exhibit BG-RES characteristics. Where big BG-RES males dominate spawning habitat, there could be alot of that going on.

Just to give you an idea of how prolific lepomis species are ... RES which are considered low among lepomis for reproductive potential are stocked in Michigan DOW ponds at the rate of 5 pairs to the acre in the spring. On average by fall there is a crop of 25 to 30 THOUSAND 1" to 3" RES for stocking into Michigan lakes. So high reproduction even from RES which are considered low reproducers among lepomis species.

Do not worry too much bout BGxRES breeding. I have been having this happen for 15 years with naturally (accidentally) occurring hybrids in one pond.

The reproduction rate is notably lower than pure BG, and the pond has produced many fantastic big sunfish such as these two.

Theo's fish are growing at very near maximum rates of growth. I am aware of no one else who has grown lepomis to that size in Ohio. Male BG can grow at about 0.39 lbs per year in Northwest OH once attaining a length of 5 inches. It requires that the BG eats all it wants when it wants. So those examples are likely 8 to 9 years old. Not sure how close Theo's climate is to NW Ohio, but it would take that long to grow BG of comparable size there. So Theo's BOW and the fish that are in it are an example of 8 to 9 years of effort and population management. I can tell you, the BOW didn't do it on its own or just with feed. To grow fish like that you need a similar population management approach that Theo employs year in and year out. Someone, once said said it wasn't fair and asked how he did it. His answer was this:


To grow BG-RES like Theo's requires, in Theo's experience, removing 800 hybrids per acre per year. Unfair? I say that's the difference. Most people throw back fish like the ones Theo takes out. That's why he grows them that size and others don't. 800 hybrids removed per acre each year. Think about it, that's a decent amount of recruitment to his slot each year. BG-RES can replace themselves with SMB/YP as predators. Perhaps they will also be able to do this with LMB once there are enough females of subsequent generations.

I am in NE Ohio. NW OH is down right tropical compared to life here in the snowbelt! Thank you for the info on the predator info being SB. I never thought of that. I am just far enough south (Lake Erie) that I can use hybrid striped bass. I think they are not legal there where theo is at. Do you think HSB would be a more effective predator than SB? Theo, do you think Jones fish is correct with the 50/50 male to female ratio? How are the F2 and later BRES performing compared to the F1's? I was feeding Optimal over the years and caught several reg 1# + bluegill out of my other pond, and I plan on stuffing the BRES in my new pond as well. Thank you!

Most of those questions seem to be directed at Theo and I will defer to answer them. Wasn't sure if you were asking me regarding the HSB being as effective as SMB at predation. Maybe Theo knows but I will refrain from venturing a guess. There have been a few members try combining HSB with BG-GSF hybrids that had excessive reproduction of their hybrids and poor growth after the second year. None have employed Theo's relentless culling. Perhaps if they had the reports would be better than they were.

Down south, I would not use anything but LMB for limiting lepomis reproduction. Spawning season is just too long and a body needs LMB down here to get adequate control of reproduction IMHO. I am just curious, is there a reason why you don't want LMB? Are they not allowed at your location? Are you concerned that there will be no reproduction if combined with LMB?

LMB are hard to control. They easily overpopulate, plus I already have another pond with LM/BG, and want to try something different in this pond. Maybe if I could get female only LMG, but not too sure how to go about that. One mistake and it's over.

With regard to female only LMB, I have not done it yet but with the speckle bellies, I might someday try it. My thoughts were to buy sexed fish and verity sex with an otoscope. Use the same otoscope incision to implant a pit tag if the sex were confirmed female.

Ohio changed the regulations a few years ago. Now HSB are legal to stock - at least when I searched the regs 2 years ago I couldn't find where they were illegal to stock. Now 10 years ago? They were illegal to stock in certain areas.

Jones fish would not sell them to my nephew as he lives up by Lake Erie. I live about 25 miles due south of him in the same county, but they will sell them to me as I am part of the Ohio river watershed. This was in the fall of 2023.

Jpsdad, how are the F2 and further down the line specklebellies performing for you? Thank you

Here you go. Avoid all the speculation and 2nd hand thoughts from people that haven't actually had them in their ponds and seen them reproduce. This is right from the source that Jones gets their fish from. You can also call the hatchery directly that produces the fish and ask them. (Jones does NOT "produce" the fish, just like your supermarket doesn't grow your produce)

https://malonelake.com/specklebelly-bream-%E2%84%A2

We are a licensed distributor for Glennon Fish Farms just like Jones, and as part of the licensing agreement we cannot divulge the species that are crossed to make the Specklebelly Bream.

If you want to call Glennon, their phone number is 501-676-0207. I would call vs. email because it is the busiest time of year for them, and getting a reply via email is iffy. Bobby is the owner.

How many lakes are stocked in Michigan with RES? How long will they survive the winters in Mi since they are s Southern fish?

I get calls from people in Michigan wanting to stock RES and I try to discourage them from doing that because they won't do well and their self-sustaining ability is severely limited due to the length of the winters in Mi. Here, look at this USGS map showing the distribution of RES in Michigan and the number of fish found at each location.

https://nas.er.usgs.gov/viewer/omap.aspx?SpeciesID=390

You will probably notice that there is one location way north in Michigan. I highly doubt that the 1 representative sample was correctly identified, or if it was correctly identified, how likely was it to be a fish that was bucket stocked earlier that year and that it didn't survive the winter?

Dr. Dave Willis has examples of Pumpkinseed Sunfish overpopulating in ponds that had SMB as the apex predator, and the Pumpkinseed Sunfish only spawn once a year...... So, you are absolutely correct in saying that Lepomis species are very prolific.

Yes, jpsdad - tell us how BGxRES are doing in your ponds. Please share your personal experience.

Willy, I have no idea what sex distribution you would get with commercial specklebellies - esshup may have the best route for info above.

With my Fx BGxRES, I catch approximately 50/50 male/female IMO.

50/50 is making me rethink the BRES. I had really good results with the regular hybrids BG/GSF that I can get off the fish truck. They got to be a pound, or better in a few years, and would keep little kids entertained for hours as they were definitely not hook shy. Even empty hooks. Do the F2's , and later generations grow quickly too, Theo?

Plenty of them take to pellet feeding very easily and grow quite well. (Some take more after their RES side.) Both the ones I posted pix of are from later generations.

P.S. A friend of mine who was not going to take any home to eat caught a half dozen on an empty hook before he'd had enough action!

Thank you Theo for setting my mind at ease. Those two you posted are brutes and it is very nice to know that they are later generational fish and not the original F1's. I appreciate you taking the time to post answers to my questions. Go Buckeyes. We bleed scarlet and grey up here too!

Esshup,

Here is the reference: https://www.michigandnr.com/publications/pdfs/DNRFishLibrary/TechnicalReports/TR2003-3.pdf

They have mostly stocked southern counties and nearer the great lakes. The ability to survive seems to be correlated to the number of frost-free days. I think you are right to discourage stocking them in ponds up there. Water that is a bit slower to freeze probably has the best chance. Best I can tell, they thought the efforts were worth it for the waters where they established.

Mostly, I thought it remarkable that they stock hatchery ponds with only 5 pairs of RES and get that level of production.

I also think it remarkable to harvest 400+ <10" BG-RES annually from a half-acre pond. Dang good recruitment if you ask me. Pretty interesting they'll take a bare hook too. Not nearly as picky as BG sometimes are. That's a good trait to have when one wants to limit numbers.

My 2 cents - don't stock any fish species (especially crosses) that you don't have peer reviewed proof of what they are and all their traits.

Got any pictures of your RES?

I have speckle belly in 2 ponds and I have caught only 1 female the rest have been all male. I have really enjoyed them. Now my copper nose spawned with my red ear in the big pond and that is a really cool hybrid. I have been moving them to my smaller pond. They seem to spawn once or twice a year and they seem to be 50/50 male female. My smaller pond just has only redear, hybrid res/copper nose , hybrid crappie, and speckle bellies.

For the "found out" opinion, I am convinced that this seller of 'specklebellies' obtained from Malone is lacking direct experience of acturally counting and quantifying the reproductive ability of specklebellies. IMO their opinion was generated from some of their buyers and pond owners of specklebellies. It is doubtful that if the pond owner saw some of what was considered a lot of small hybrids or some type of sunfish the pondowner assumed the worst as 50:50 male - female specklebelly. Even the 'old' regular HBG with high numbers of male/female ratio can have large numbers of offspring result when not adequate predator presssure was applied to the offspring of hybrids. Just one lowly female hybrid sunfish would be capable of having 5,000 to up to 40,000 eggs. That is a lot of offspring production for a regular 0.2 to 1.0 ac pond.

I would like to see the research study, the methods, and test results of the claim that BGXRES hybrids produced 50%male / 50% female F1 offspring when all the scientific research says it does not happen. IMO something is not up to standard operating proceedure with the claim of BGXRES producing equal number of males and females. I trust the experience and research testing done by the hatchery that produces the BGXRES hybrid. They are not novices of fish production. And all the independent scientific testing results also showed a significant high percentage of Males present in the BGXRES cross.

Another point to consider is which species is male-or female.. Bg male crossing with/fertilizing RES female has a different ratio of male to female F1 than a RES male fertilizing a female BG.
I believe ewest posted the study on sunfish crosses and how it affects ratios of sex.