Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Property Projects & Construction What did you do at your pond today?

Our pond surface water temps are experiencing relatively large daily swings. Most mornings there is skim ice on the edge water. By late afternoon the temp about 5" below the surface, measured by a floating pool thermometer, is often in the mid 50s.
Most days I see no fish activity when I hand throw pellets and meal worms. On March 2 many fish came up to eat and a couple grass carp showed. Several days ago I witnessed one sunfish rise to a single pellet and one GC cruising ever so slowly in the warmed surface water.
I'm curious if these wide temp swings affect the health of the fish. It is a little surprising that more fish aren't showing up in the warmest water on the north shore. I suppose that the water is not above 50 degrees for more than a few hours in a 24 hour period is keeping them rather sluggish. It appears we've lost the few remaining trout that were around last year. They were getting rather old at 6 and 8 years.
Anyone have similar observations as Spring arrives?

4CP,

The bite here has been very subdued until a few days when surface water reached 66F (avg of 4 samples). Then we have been getting strong north winds and night dips to low 50s and yesterday into the high 40s. Little activity recently and the bite slow. I was wondering what the temp would be 4 or 5 feet down if the surface temps were 66F. I saw my first LMB nest a few days ago. He wasn't tending yesterday.

At this time of year, the water in the shallows will have a very large temperature swing due to solar heating.

However, the fish are only experiencing the temperature swings that they choose to experience. The warm surface water is less dense, and will remain at the surface (absent severe wind mixing). The deeper, cooler water is very stable at this time of the year, and should be warming at a very slow rate.

The fish that want to take a dip in the hot tub, can go swim in the shallows during the day. The fish that like oxygenated cold water can hang out in their preferred spots.

4C, I don't have any ice but experiencing exactly the same things as you. I'm a bit south and East of you. I'm sure you are probably experiencing the high winds we've been getting as well.

Glad you asked the question, I'm new to this and was wondering the same thing.
I know it is stressful for the fish to experience these temperature swings and can promote things like parasites and fin rot. I have caught 1 HBG with parasites.

Rod addressed that in a previous post as well.

Thanks guys.
We've had some of that wind. Rarely is it more than slightly breezy here. 10 mph is something to really comment on.
Rod, without measuring the temp profile of the whole column, do we safely assume the pond is not turning over twice per day, but that the surface water is going from 32 degrees up into the 50s and is more or less sitting on top of the major mass of pond water that's not fluctuating much at all? That would provide for a nearly constant refuge for the fishes.

20-40 mph. Wind around here . Always windy in March

IMO, your fish are probably in a pretty safe refuge.

Of course, water is a very strange substance. The solid phase (ice) is less dense than the liquid phase. Very few other materials are like that.

As a consequence, the maximum density of water occurs at 39F. So there will be a period in the spring where the water that cools and freezes at the surface does NOT sink, due to the warmer water (35-43F) in the deeper basin actually being denser. The same thing holds true with the water heated in the shallows, once it warms past 39F, it also tend to stay in place and "float" on the colder water.

Very strange indeed! Of course, that means there will always be the possibility that strange weather conditions will cause some harmful results in your pond as an exception to the usual process.

In your location it is very likely that you have a spring turnover as the water warms. If your pond had an average temperature of 34F, as the top warms due to solar heating and contact with a warmer atmosphere, when the water at the surface approaches 39F, it will sink to the bottom and displace colder water. I suspect this process is NOT sudden, and does NOT occur simultaneously across the entire pond, so the fish can easily handle that annual event.

I believe the most common dangerous turnover in the spring occurs when a pond has warmed up a fair bit for its climate zone, and then experiences a significant "cold rain" event. That cold, dense surface (or creek) water running in very suddenly can cause the pond to turnover. This can bring the low-oxygen bottom water into the column where the fish live, and can even bring up organic debris from the bottom which starts to oxidize, further stealing the remaining oxygen from the fish.

Water temperature is 56.

Today, I caught two LMB, both of which were previously tagged.

The first LMB was initially caught on 9/10/24, weighing 1.38 lbs. Since then, it has grown 3 cm and now weighs 1.84 lbs. However, its relative weight (RW) has decreased from 106% to 75%, leading me to suspect it may be a male.



The second LMB has been caught three times and is the first LMB from the pond over 2.5 lbs. It was last caught on 9/29/24, measuring 39 cm and weighing 2.13 lbs., with an RW of 110%. This time, it was still 39 cm but has increased in weight to 2.58 lbs, with an RW of 148%.



My goal isn’t to produce trophy LMB, but the catch rates of these previously tagged LMB demonstrate a high level of catchability.

I consulted with Bob regarding culling, and he recommended waiting until June 2026 (the three-year mark).

When the time comes, I plan to document the culls as well.

Learnin',

You may not be trying to grow trophies but they (even both) are tracking like trophies do. For a Tulsa climate, the model predicts a maximum average annual gain of 1.89 lbs/annum. Both of those fish above are tracking in the neighborhood of that. Tulsa, I think, is a little warmer than your location and so your growth is just outstanding.

On 3.22.24 the model predicts for an LMB that is 1.38 lbs on 9.10.24 growth to 1.88 lbs on 3.22.25. Adjusting for the difference (0.04 lbs on 3.22.25); I estimate the annual rate of growth for your first LMB to be 1.74 lbs per year.

For the second fish ... the model predicts for an LMB that is 2.13 lbs on 9.29.24 growth to 2.49 lbs on 3.22.25. Adjusting for the difference (0.09 lbs on 3.22.25); I estimate the annual rate of growth for your second LMB to be 2.39 lbs per year.

That second fish is sure a beauty. I question whether you should cull any of the fish your are frequently catching. They have the genes you want carried on in terms of catchability on artificial bait. You should try making a day of catching LMB on live bait to see if you can catch more samples of the harder to catch fish that have not yet been in your creel just to get a better census of what else is in there. You might consider keeping records of whether a tagged fish has ever been caught on artificial bait. With regard to catchability, fish you don't seem to be able to catch on artificials might be axed depending on how you want to control traits for progeny.

I am trying to remember, Seems like you stocked 70 LMB/AC in June of 23. Is that correct? Can you remember how many, the date, and the length of the fingerlings?

JPS

Thanks for the info! I'm curious to see how the model you're using stacks up to real-life results.

I've read some articles about how genes are passed on, and EWEST shared a graph about it in a previous post on this thread.

I've been keeping track of where in the pond each fish was caught, along with the color and artificial bait used, and even the water temps. Good suggestion about using live bait. I'm not wanting to introduce another species so not sure I want to take the chance. Although, as long as I don't dump the ones I don't use that's probably very low risk.

When it comes to stocking, I got free fish from the state and originally stocked 2" fingerlings at their rate of 100 per acre. That was before I found PB, and I didn’t have any habitat in the pond at the time. Turns out, the pond was already full of 7" GSF and 10" YBH, so I’m sure a good number of those fingerlings got eaten.

On 9/9/22, I had stocked BG at 500 per acre and CC at 100 per acre. (Free from the state) Some of the CC survived, and now they’re over 2.5 pounds.

That’s why, per Bob's advice, I restocked with 3-6" BG and RES last August 2024 and again earlier this month. Before August 2024, I hadn’t caught a single pure BG—only GSF. Luckily, I took pictures of almost every fish my grandkids and I caught, so I could confirm the lack of BG.

I’ve specifically targeted LMB about 10 times and caught 25 total, but only 12 were unique fish. To me, that points to a low survival rate for the LMB as well as catchability.

Now, I’m pulling out every CC, YBH, and GSF I catch. We will also be seining to assist with that once the water warms up.

Thanks, everyone, for all the helpful info!

I had wanted to ask you about the fishing effort invested to obtain your existing samples. In one the papers you have on angling vulnerability, there are graphs on a population of 110 LMB subjected to 40 hours of fishing effort. Some caught 4 times, 3 times, 2 times, 1 times, and some not at all. So just using those proportions I used your report above to estimate your population. The numbers I got ranged from 12 to 17.5 LMB with an average of 15. So the caveats are. How much fishing effort have you put in and do both populations have similar populations in terms of vulnerability to angling. My sense is that you have yet to put in a corresponding 40 hours and when you have there will be more unique samples and some fish being caught 4 times.

We can ask from another perspective. Has the population reached a forage limitation? For the time being the answer is no. At present LMB sizes, a forage limitation would indicate a population between 30 and 40 LMB per acre. But your LMB are growing at the model's ad libitum growth (with some exceeding and others below, but pretty dang close to when averaged). Because of this I think the population is below 30 LMB/acre for sizes exceeding 11" This probably owing to those GSF which colonized before you stocked fingerling LMB.

As for real life? I think the model's accuracy is remarkable. It predicts the growth of your fish from dates in September to yesterday's date pretty dang good IMHO. I don't expect it to be exact and all it needs to be in order to be practical for me is reasonably accurate for a population. I can work with that. Above, you can infer its predictions at the 1 year anniversaries of the September catches. The first fish is predicted to gain 1.74 lbs from 1.38 lbs to 3.12 lbs (on 9.10.25). The second fish is predicted to gain 2.39 lbs from 2.13 lbs to 4.52 lbs on (9.29.25). Will they be exactly that? I think probably not. Variation of appropriate sized prey during the intervening time will influence each individually and possibly differently. The model is one of ad libitum feeding. If the forage isn't sufficiently plentiful to support ad libitum feeding, then one or both could easily fall short. From the model we can understand the consumption required for a gain in time and even whether an arbitrary gain is easily achievable or extremely rare (possibly impossible) for a particular climate and time span. Eventually, in real life, the LMB will begin to diverge from the model and show signs that growth is slowing. This will happen when the production of forage will no longer support ad libitum feeding.

My neighborhood pond has benefited from rain in the last week or so, thus keeping a lot of fish alive, but really prohibiting us from continuing fish rescue efforts.

Might have to resort to fishing as the main rescue mode for now.

I did dig up several lily pad corms which I have soaking in my garage now awaiting transplant back into the pond after the standpipe is repaired.

Sunil,

Now should be a good time to evaluate your Red-tailed Hawk population. They should be laying eggs about now.

I worked at my farm Saturday and the Red Tails were screaming at me at the two locations where I worked.

Rod, I have recently been seeing two adult red tails in my neighborhood.

It was odd that I really didn't seem them for a few months.

For the past few days I have amused myself feeding an osprey. He shows up just before I hand feed the BG. He takes advantage of the confusion & distraction of the BG when I throw the feed & gets himself dinner. First day he took 5 attempts before he got dinner on the 6 try. Last night first strike & he was headed home with a BG dinner.

J. E. Craig, that sounds so cool. We have osprey and bald eagles come by and "case the joint" but we have no knowledge of any successful plunges.
My grass carp, at approximately 4 feet long, possible could pull an eagle under the surface, certainly an osprey, if the bird latched on. The birds likely can judge the size of fish they attack.
Might you be able to get some video footage for us?

I think you need to give that osprey a complimentary subscription to Pond Boss!

With a little more education, you can probably teach him which fish need to be culled from your pond.

Most water we’ve had in this pond in a few years. Still not going out the pipe, but one or two more rains should do it. Up here with the grandkids this weekend. We will see if there’s anything biting. [img]https://photobucket.com/share/86fc5d56-381d-44fa-b9fe-da271eb2f6f2[/img]

Looks good Setter , happy for you . In our immediate area , it's been dry, down 5.5 feet from full pool , only one run off event , pond gained 1 foot , since July 23 . Entire year of 24 , not a single Tstorm . For Western Oklahoma, strange weather. Upper pond has 45 acres of water shed, when the Lord sends it , it'll fill in a hurry. In his time. Hoping You have more on the way.

Caught a few. I did catch one SMB. But grandson was helping me land it, and it dropped off. Ha [img]https://photobucket.com/share/bf211722-4b8e-42a9-839b-5d164e6fdf9a[/img]

They look delicious!

Looks like enough for dinner.

The fact that the Grandson was enjoying it with you tells me you made a memory that both of you won't forget!

That's my favorite thing about ponds.

Caught some more YP and HBG on Saturday and had a nice fish fry. Also caught two more SMB. One was one of my original stockers from 8 or 9 years ago. It was big. Unfortunately no pics, as I got him to shore, and he shook off. Big fish though. Also caught a fairly small SMB. Must have been from the last year or two. Grandkids stayed in the kayak. The water was a bit chilly for swimming. Haha!

Setter, how big would you guess that 8-9 year old smallie was??

It had to be 20+”. We’ve caught one other that was 20”. This was easily as big. Wish I could have got a pic.