Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Stocking LMB in established pond

Hello, I have a 2 acre pond that is about 20 years old. It was originally stocked with HSB, BG, and CC. Currently it has a significant population of BG (many stunted), YP, and CC. I'm wanting to stock LMB so that the fish population can be more self-sustaining and not have to be regularly restocked with HSB.

My question is: in an established pond like this how many LMB should I stock and what size should they be?

My local fish farm offers LMB in the following sizes: 2-4", 4-6", 6-8", 8-10", 10-12", 12"+


Also are there any other fish I should consider adding?

Larger size LMB are much more expensive than lots of little ones.

However, I am worried about the CC (and perhaps the HSB) eating some of your newly stocked LMB.

Can you estimate the size and number of CC, as well as the HSB? That should help some of the Pond Boss experts give you some better advice when they drop into your thread.

Also, any more observations on the BG beyond stunted? (Of course, that is exactly what you would expect from a pond that has too few effective predators on BG.)

The CC are quite large and I see a lot when I feed the fish from the dock. The largest CC is probably almost three feet long. As for the HSB, I think that there are little to no HSB left. I have never seen them during a feeding or while walking along the pond. I've only ever caught a HSB once and it was very large, probably about the max size it could be in a pond. The BG are mostly small to medium but there are a few that are large. The YP are very large for Perch and there are some smaller and baby perch present during feedings, as well.

A 3 foot long CC will have a mouth gape of 3 1/2" (female) to 5" (male). The bigger the LMB you stock, the better.

Assuming there is a budget, you'll most likely be ahead to buy a lesser number of big bass than a larger number of small ones.

I would go fewer and larger too if I were to remedial stock. I would stock them large enough that they can easily consume the "small sized BG" that you referenced above. I would not stock more than 20 lbs per acre of LMB. If they are large enough to consume most of what is already in place, they could fill your carry within a couple years. So if they average 1.67 lbs each, stock no more than 12 LMB/AC. Whatever size you settle on, stock no more than 16 LMB/AC. Avoid stocking small LMB. They will not grow well and will not achieve the biomass a year from stocking that a smaller number of large LMB will. Plus, they are vulnerable to the CC as Theo and FishingRod said.


This will favor LMB growth and you could grow some dandies. Even so, growth of small BG < 5" in length will remain slow and you won't achieve rapid growth of young BG until you get more predation on them which will happen only after more LMB are recruited (either natural recruitment or additional supplements if they fail to recruit naturally). You will have to transition the pond and this IMO will take years to do. Unless, of course, you nuke and start over. You would be back on track very soon if you did that.

Only two paragraphs? Are you feeling okay?

Thank you for very much for the information. The fish farm prices the 12"+ LMB by the pound (all others are by quantity). So should I just plan to get up to 40lbs total of those?

Yes, that's what I would do if remedial stocking. You might verify your pond's surface area on Google Maps if you haven't already. I just ran it through the climate model and it looks like it will take 3 years to before carry is reached. Good luck to you.

Ok great that will work for me. I'm not in a huge rush, just trying to get things in place for when my young children are fishing age. Thanks again!

I'd say stock 75-100 6"-8" and 75-100 8"-10" IF the pond is 2 acres. It all depends on your goals for the fishery. The larger fish will be habituated to feeding on pellets, and while they will eat anything that they can fit in their mouth, they might struggle a bit weaning off the pellets and switching to fish as their main part of their diet since they are habituated to pellets.

Sure you might lose some LMB to predation from the CC, but I don't think a whole bunch.

It all depends on your goals for the fishery. With the LMB, once they start spawning you should remove 40 pounds per year.

To be sure, for a pond with mostly large BG below carry due to LMB predation, this is a viable scenario of the existing population in balance with the BG population. Another way of saying the same thing is that a non-stunted BG population structure would support an LMB population of 75 to 100 LMB/acre.

The problem ... as I see it ... is that the BG population has gone through years of under predation and may be forage locked for such a high standing weight (36 to 48 lbs/acre) of numerous small LMB. My concern is that they will not have the forage needed to sustain them. Forage that the small LMB can't hardly capture are prey within the optimum window of relative size for the 12" to 14". This improves the odds of what you stock having ample immediate forage. If you have a super high population of 0.75" to 2" BG, however, sure there will be no problem stocking a large number of smaller LMB. If on the other hand, there is a super high number that are 2.5"- 5" in length, then there will LOTS of forage to grow a smaller number of larger LMB.

So currently, I think your BG population structure more closely resembles one that supports a smaller population of large LMB. It's a better match, IMO. I think it will take some time to transition the pond and I think this is best way to start (if remedial stocking). In three years, a smaller number of larger LMB should reach carry and this would be a good time to evaluate goals and make adjustments ... something like what esshup recommended above if there has been no LMB recruitment would be acceptable. Of course then, the 40 lbs/year that you need to remove will need to be primarily comprised of large and dandy LMB.

As Bill Cody says, opinions can differ and that is a good thing. Bill happens to live and service clients in your neighborhood and so hopefully he will add his perspective. If he doesn't post, I would certainly recommend that you reach out to him for guidance.

germantoby - You are getting some good opinions for getting your pond back towards a better fishery.

Here are my thoughts and ideas.
As you realize, you have neglected the good management needed for the balance of prey fish and predators in your pond. As noted earlier and due to neglect, it will take some time and a decent amount of money to try and get the pond fishery balance back into some form of “normal” balance. Imbalance did not happen all at once and correcting it will also not happen quickly unless you completely renovate the entire pond. Pond renovation at this point in time is very difficult because the chemical used for the renovation is currently out of production. The larger pond is,,,, the more time and money it takes to maintain it when all things are done properly. IMO larger is not always better, especially when it comes to pond management.

If the numbers of HSB were kept as common density numbers in the pond,, the BG population would have been better controlled and managed. Maybe not correctly but better. HSB are not the best predators of BG. LMB are GO TOs for properly controlling BG. Correctly using HSB,, usually requires ladder stocking of every 1-3 yrs by using some supplemental HSB stocking. Larger CC will also eat smaller 1”-4” BG mostly during low light periods, although IMO larger CC prefer YP to eating BG. With the pond’s current lack of predators, it is likely the CC already have or will be creating new small CC by reproducing. CC when large can create their own spawning cavity. Too many CC in a pond can also create various problems depending on the GOALS for the pond. LMB are efficient consumers of smaller CC.

Stocking for predator / prey improvement.
A lot of doing it right, depends on the current size structure of the overpopulated BG population. For your unique fishery, the smaller bass are that you restock,,, the less likely they will do the desired results. For BG to be effectively eaten by a LMB, the BG should be at least 3-3.5 times shorter than the bass. 2"-3” BG can be eaten by 7”-10” bass. 4” BG can be eaten by 13”- 15” bass. 6” BG can be eaten by 18”-19” bass.

Know the sizes of BG to be consumed and then buy appropriate sized predators. One of your FIRST jobs is to do some fishing with small hooks and bits of worm. Keep track of the sizes of BG you are catching. Multiply those sizes by at least 3X, maybe 4X. NOTE: the larger bass that you are able to buy will be fish pellet food trained and have been growing mostly by eating eating pellets. ( I assume you will get the LMB from Remlinger as Fin Farm is out of stock for 7”-12” bass.) These remlinger bass have been grown using pellets. So when you stock the new larger sized bass, IMO significantly cut back on feeding pellets or stop feeding pellets for at least 2-3 weeks to encourage the new bass to focus on eating BG. LMB will also readily eat young perch when they are present because YP are easier to swallow whole compared to swallowing the BG shape.

I don’t think the 6"-8" and 8"-10" bass are big enough to do what really needs to be accomplished in your over crowded BG pond.

If it were my pond I would “bite the bullet” and buy the more expensive larger bass (10-12” and some 12”+) to help ensure adequate numbers of BG get eaten. I would buy at least 30 10”-12” and 20 12+” bass for 2 acres. IMO I would buy several extras of the larger bass. Several more of the Larger bass will get the BG eating job done quicker.

If you don’t want to buy all the suggested bass you can remove BG by finding some local kids who like to fish. Pay them a bounty for each BG they catch and remove. You can buy or build larger fish traps to help remove smaller BG. See how to build a Z trap and cloverleaf (4 entry) fish traps on YouTube
https://ktraps.com/
http://www.jkenterprisesmn.com/

You can also buy a long (50-100ft) minnow seine and use it on the beach area to remove BG.
https://douglasnets.net/product-category/minnow-seines/
He (Kelly) custom builds seines.

I think your 2025 target for total overpopulated BG removal for 2 acres should be around be around 6000-8000 BG (2"-5") from 2 acres; however you will not know how many BG the bass are eating.

You see all these management ideas cost money and time. So it might be just as efficient to just buy larger bass plus some extras to make the job go quicker.
Once you see noticeably fewer BG in 2-4 years then you can remove some of the larger bass if desired. However having too many bass predators can be a good thing because it causes the panfish and BG to have larger average sizes because the heavy bass predation minimizes the recruitment of new BG and YP and CC into the pond community. Too many fish are bad for producing a good quality fishery. Thus the existing uneaten BG have more natural foods to eat and they then grow better.

Bill, assuming they consume as much as they want, both the 11" and the 12"+ LMB could average around 1.2 lbs gain over the course of 1 year. The Lion's share will be consumed over the summer months and assuming the 10-12 inchers are std weight and average 11" they would gain from an April 1 stocking date .95 lbs (growing from .66 lb to 1.61 lb) by September 30. Across this period the daily consumption would be around 2.52% of their body weight daily. This is about the proportionate weight of a BG that is 1/4 the length of an LMB. So for the 182 days we are talking 182 BG if they average about 1/4 the length of the LMB. Under such a scenario, 30 could consume around 5400 BG from April 1st through September 30 (LMB and forage willing). The larger LMB are a little less because (although they make a similar weight increment) they have a smaller proportionate gain. Assuming an average length of 13 inches and std. weight, they gain on average .95 growing from 1.1 lb to 2.05 lbs. The number of 1/4 length BG would then be 158. For 20 13" LMB the total BG consumed would be 3159 BG. If the LMB do this, then there will be a very good weight and number of BG coming out and I would expect a good mid to late summer spawn that will support them next year. Those numbers assume no LMB mortality. Anyways, would be great if germantoby would follow up with updates. We could track the progress. Would love to see metrics on both LMB and BG as they grow.

jpsdad - Very good thoughts for the calculated amounts of BG the planned larger sizes and numbers of LMbass stocking could /would be eating. I wish I had the ability to calculate those BG consumed densities. My estimate was just using some of my thoughts for bass annual consumption and hoping my estimate was reasonably close to reality.

IMO the main thing that we do not know is how many and what sizes of BG are composing the standing crop per acre in this Ohio pond. If the average BG is of smaller sizes in this pond, then 8000 consumed might not be enough numbers removed. However if the average BG size is of larger sizes then 8000 removed would make a more noticeable difference. Another factor is how well the larger sizes of pellet fed bass will convert or resort to eating BG when they have been habituated to fish pellets. It all depends. It will be very interesting to hear the results of this supplemental stocking of larger bass into a BG overpopulated Ohio pond .

Does any reader have any pond experience of using advanced sizes of pellet fed bass to eat smaller BG? Maybe that is a good question for our Pond Boss Mentor Bob Lusk?

An example - There is a small pond just 0.10ac having YP and young green sunfish mostly 1-2yrs old. No bass. First year I removed 4600 GSF from 0.1 ac that equaled 46,000/ac. Then in the next year I removed 3,100 GSF = 31000/ac. Thus without adequate predation 8000 BG consumed from 2 ac may not be enough predation to limit the BG numbers.

As an aside (see Bill's comments above). Consider seining the pond (BG bedding area) as the BG first spawn (while the BG are nesting). That will do 2 things - let you remove BG of different sizes and disrupt the spawn eliminating many eggs/yoy of BG.

1/4 length as average consumed size fits the population and max consumption in NW OHIO for the stocking recommendation you made. It came together very well. I just had to mention that.

FWIW, also in a agreement with the point you made below, I don't consider the number they will consume to be died in wool. I solved using the constraint of 1/4 average relative length as average size kind of thinking that would be a number that you would be comfortable with. Turns out it matched nearly perfectly. The realized average length depends on what they consume (which in part is what may be available in consumable sizes) and if the weight consumed were comprised of BG that average 1/5 the length of LMB ... then the number consumed would double.



Yes.

I think all suggested solutions thus far have potential for optimum success, it would depend on the state of the current BG population structure. The main risk faced is stocking LMB too small to exploit the majority of BG population. It is possible that my rec for 12"-14" is too small to be the optimum LMB size for the current state of the BG population structure.

The BG population structure is very important. I do however think there is a range of relative size that would be acceptable for each respective size class of LMB. There is also a range of relative size where the difficulty that LMB face in successfully consuming BG is too great ... where in such a condition ... they grow very slowly or decline. Because of this, I am reluctant to conclude that feed trained LMB cannot make a fully adequate transition to natural forage unless I am satisfied that prey was abundant and optimally consumable yet was not consumed. It is an important distinction that we must first be correct about the opinion that the most abundant forage is readily consumable and profitable. Otherwise, a bias about what we think is acceptable or optimum might cause us to draw incorrect conclusions.


I would very much like to hear Bob's thoughts and recommendations.


We probably will all have different ideas about the appropriateness of the relative size of prey. But in my mind, an LMB is going to TRY to consume enough prey so as to consume no less than as many as it takes to reach its metabolic demand AND its intrinsic capacity to grow. The will is there, what completes the circle is ability and supply. IMO there is a range of forage sizes can fill that consumption need. I think prey as small as 0.5% the body weight of an LMB is profitable and worthy of consumption. So in a such a case as your proposed stocking of LMB ... when consuming 0.5% prey (1/6 length) ... they would consume an average of 5 instead of 1 of the 2.5% (1/4 length) sizes to meet the average daily consumption. So conceivably, your proposed stocking could consume more than 40,000 prey of that size in the referenced 6 months if that were their only option.

I like the second opinion and the thoughtful analysis explaining size of prey and numbers consumed. Yes - there are numerous variables as to how well stocking LMB into an established pond will succeed. This is why it will be very beneficial to all readers if "germantoby" can return here and give us periodic updates so others can learn more about this topic of adding LMB to an existing overpopulation of BG. .

+1

germantoby, please consider following up and keeping us informed. We will also share with you.


As a case study, having the LMB adults tagged and initially weighed is something that would be great. The supplier can probably do that for a reasonable fee and it will provide you really important information about individual growth. Also, if you can do a census of your BG following Bill's advice on trapping and seining, this would provide a wealth of information. I'll will analyze and share my thoughts as will others. Anyways, please consider doing this.

Hello everyone, I apologize for just now getting back to you. We just had our third baby and it's been all hands on deck so I wasn't checking up on this post. One thing I forgot to mention is that we just took ownership of the pond 2 years ago so we didn't play a role in the initial stocking or subsequent failure to maintain the HSB population in the pond because they were already gone by the time we moved in (other than the one I've caught in 2 years). I appreciate everyone taking the time to give your thoughts on how to best proceed from here. I will be acting on your recommendations and will be sure to provide updates as things progress.