Hi All, since building my lake things have changed a bit, ie. it's turned out to be a better quality water body than I thought that supports trout very well and we love ice fishing them. I built the lake with the intention of creating a great LMB fishing spot but only put about 3 in last summer at about the 4-6 inch size (chances are good that the eagles/otters/turtles bagged them already. But I did put thousands of Pumpkinseed sunfish in and they've reproduced very well - they spawned from the end of june to about the end of august and there are now zillions of them. So it's ready to put LMB in but...I also put some RBT and BRT (brook trout?) in as an experiment and they are doing very well. So I'd like to pivot from LMB to trout - can i do that practically with so many sunfish in there now?
The lake is 6 acres, averages 6-8 feet with 10-12 foot deep spots. Current stocking is FHM, dace, pumkinseeds, 3 bass, 1500-2000 trout, some suckers.
The RBT (14-16 inches and bigger) we are catching that were stocked last spring are full of small sunfish, the brookies are full of bugs and maybe will switch to sunfish as well when they get a little bigger?
So, instead of putting LMB in that will eat the sunfish ...and my trout, would SMB control the sunfish numbers as well as fishing and trapping them? For stocking I only have access to SMB, LMB, trout species, no walleye or others.
For trout stocking I now put in 8-10 inch brookies and the RBT are 1.5 to 2 pounds and bigger. I did put 500 3-5 inch brookies in last year but that was most likely a waste of money, from now on they would all be as big as I can get them.
Anyway that's my conundrum, I know pivoting isn't good and it's easier to start from new but I dont feel like killing off everything - we eat the sunfish too... Will the SMB and RBT, predators control the sunfish?
I should mention that the lake shouldn't support SMB reproduction.
I ask because I think it was you who showed us how many 3/4" bluegill your trout were eating.
If they survive year round, they may be doing a good job at controlling bluegill.....different then we've ever known.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
Yes water quality is way up, and the trout even survived after my dam blowout in the spring - they were living in a puddle of dirt water it was pretty crazy. I'm also creating a 200 meter long water filtrating inlet so water quality will even be better. I aerate a very small 40x40 foot opening just because but i dont think i need it.
I see what you mean about the trout controlling the sunfish but man oh man there are lots of them. Where ever I drop the live view camera there are sunfish swimming on the bottom ...so many lol.
I think you have plenty of water, and you are still going to perform more dirt work in the future? Could you create a few small breeder/grow-out ponds for SMB?
That might give you a good supply of SMB to control the sunfish, but they wouldn't get as big as LMB and hopefully would NOT eat as many of your large brookies and rainbows.
I think you have plenty of water, and you are still going to perform more dirt work in the future? Could you create a few small breeder/grow-out ponds for SMB?
That might give you a good supply of SMB to control the sunfish, but they wouldn't get as big as LMB and hopefully would NOT eat as many of your large brookies and rainbows.
Hey thanks for the questions, maybe it would support SMB production but from what I understand they need more rocky and creek flow, my bottom is a mixture of sand/clay and decayed material/black dirt...but maybe it would. Would be hard at this point to build another pond for reproduction but i do have access to all the SMB I want or need. Them not growing too large would be alright by me.
I think if your main goal is to be a "trout lake", then LMB will work against that goal since they love to eat some large, tasty trout!
That probably leaves overpopulating sunfish as your most likely big problem?
In that case, your best solution may be to work hard to establish a good population of SMB.
There are several excellent threads on Pond Boss about creating spawning habitat for SMB. I am used to seeing BG and LMB on nests that they have fanned out of pretty small-sized sand grains. All of the SMB experts on the forum showed pretty significantly sized rocks on their spawning beds.
I think your water is pretty clear in the spring? You could put some rocks in tubs/kiddie pools/etc. where you might be able to observe spawning behavior to see which depths and rock configurations your SMB prefer.
You could then put down some landscape fabric and cover with rocks for more expansive spawning beds the next time you draw down your water level a little.
I look forward to reading about your successful efforts, since I haven't been able to fish much lately up in Canada.
(I am definitely NOT an expert on ponds in Canada, since I have mostly fished on bigger waters. Hopefully, some of our actual experts will add to your thread.)
I believe SMB will spawn in 'less than their ideal' conditions in many cases, however, I don't think SMB are so great at bluegill control.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
I wonder if it boils down to what is available for food? I didnt think RBT would eat sunfish but they seem to be. It seems that my FHM and dace are taking a beating too - so maybe if I just keep an eye on the numbers? I snorkel and trap it often to see the state of things - and check stomachs as well.
I wonder what the relationship is of the size of your trout to the size of bluegill they can consume. Or will we see a fall-off of older, larger trout eating any bluegill.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
TL ; I have a Clay pond in Western Oklahoma , Summer days 110F , No rock , I put down 3 12' X 20' areas of road way gravel separated enough to prevent SMB from seeing each other spawn , and SMB are spawning ( Geo textile under gravel to prevent sinking into silt and clay ) . No creek or stream incoming . Seems majority of creatures with Hormones ,find a way . Especially the Sunfishes. Now, to increase fry survival and maybe number of nests , adding large basket ball size rocks will help. Also read Dr. Cody's five part series on SMB , I have to google search to find them , everyone who loves SMB should read this series. Also pictures of nests for SMB , made by Teejaeh57 , find his posts on SMB , and you'll learn much. Hoping the 3 LMB are all same sex , or dead . Last comment , just my opinion , no expert , but my experience , SMB will have a very difficult time controlling BG . When fish seller sold me RES , he decided I needed BG too. 80% BG and 20% RES , a disaster , been fighting BG ever since . Good Luck , May God Bless You and Yours .
If bluegill is most all of what there is to eat, then I believe SMB will eat them. We do know that the mouth size of SMB will eventually prohibit them from eating larger bluegill.
That's why I'm really wondering if larger trout can eat adult bluegill.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
TL ; I have a Clay pond in Western Oklahoma , Summer days 110F , No rock , I put down 3 12' X 20' areas of road way gravel separated enough to prevent SMB from seeing each other spawn , and SMB are spawning ( Geo textile under gravel to prevent sinking into silt and clay ) . No creek or stream incoming . Seems majority of creatures with Hormones ,find a way . Especially the Sunfishes. Now, to increase fry survival and maybe number of nests , adding large basket ball size rocks will help. Also read Dr. Cody's five part series on SMB , I have to google search to find them , everyone who loves SMB should read this series. Also pictures of nests for SMB , made by Teejaeh57 , find his posts on SMB , and you'll learn much. Hoping the 3 LMB are all same sex , or dead . Last comment , just my opinion , no expert , but my experience , SMB will have a very difficult time controlling BG . When fish seller sold me RES , he decided I needed BG too. 80% BG and 20% RES , a disaster , been fighting BG ever since . Good Luck , May God Bless You and Yours .
Thanks for the info!Quick question...why does everyone keep calling them bluegill lol, they are sunfish as far as I know and not quite as aggressive and dont lay as many eggs as bluegill, at least I think lol. And I know what you mean about it being a battle...when it boils down to it it is what it is I guess and it'll have to find a balance of some sort. Great ideas on the SMB beds I have the ability to do that.
Im surprised the trout made it at all with the 3 week solid stretch of blistering hot wx, the water temp was like bathwater at 78 to 82 degrees and not much different in the deeper spots, but they must have found an area of refuge that Im unaware of. There are cold springs coming in and would be nice to find them. When I did catch a trout in that wx they would fight for about 3 seconds and then go belly up when I let them go...i didnt let any go after that.
If bluegill is most all of what there is to eat, then I believe SMB will eat them. We do know that the mouth size of SMB will eventually prohibit them from eating larger bluegill.
That's why I'm really wondering if larger trout can eat adult bluegill.
Yes will be interesting to see, even if they took care of the wee ones we can take care of the large ones....we have an active fishing club that is determined and if I tell them to catch as many as they can they will lol.
I am putting 300 six inch Brookies in next week, then 2 to 3 pound rainbows in the spring. I wonder how long it takes the RBT to switch from bugs to minnows and sunfish - ill take samples throughout the summer.
Sorry about the confusion. As posts get more responses, they sometimes generate some confusion - especially regarding terminology! There are frequently new posters that refer to bluegill as a pond full of "sunfish", without any more information. I realize that does not apply to your posts, since you have said you have pumpkinseeds.
All of the sunfish species belong to Family Centrarchidae. This includes what most people call "sunfish" from Canada to S. Texas, but also includes all of the black bass (LMB, SMB, spotted), and even crappie!
The experts on the forum may refer to Genus Lepomis, which are sometimes called the "true sunfish". That covers bluegill, pumpkinseeds, red-ear sunfish, green sunfish, and most of the other less common sunfish.
If you call them "pumpkinseeds", or even PS, in your future posts, then everyone will be on the same page as you.
Now, after all of my long-winded typing, do you have any other Lepomis species of sunfish in your pond that came in through your marshes or other water connections? Or do you only have the PS that you introduced?
That information will definitely help people give good advice on your management plans.
Sorry about the confusion. As posts get more responses, they sometimes generate some confusion - especially regarding terminology! There are frequently new posters that refer to bluegill as a pond full of "sunfish", without any more information. I realize that does not apply to your posts, since you have said you have pumpkinseeds.
All of the sunfish species belong to Family Centrarchidae. This includes what most people call "sunfish" from Canada to S. Texas, but also includes all of the black bass (LMB, SMB, spotted), and even crappie!
The experts on the forum may refer to Genus Lepomis, which are sometimes called the "true sunfish". That covers bluegill, pumpkinseeds, red-ear sunfish, green sunfish, and most of the other less common sunfish.
If you call them "pumpkinseeds", or even PS, in your future posts, then everyone will be on the same page as you.
Now, after all of my long-winded typing, do you have any other Lepomis species of sunfish in your pond that came in through your marshes or other water connections? Or do you only have the PS that you introduced?
That information will definitely help people give good advice on your management plans.
Ok yes that makes great sense! All of the sunfish in the BOW are introduced, just PS.
I know some of the members in the northern U.S. have talked about PS in their ponds, but I am not sure we have anyone that has only PS as their sunfish forage.
Do you ever have grubs on the bass or trout that you catch in the area? I only ask, because that is a parasite that usually passes through snails. The most common solution is to add some redear sunfish to the lake to eat the snails. They live a little different lifestyle than the PS, and also are not too prolific.
If you have no snails (or can't get RES in your area), then I would post questions about your pond balance and mention PS as the only sunfish forage. That should get you some expert advice from the members that are really good at that stuff!
I was planning on adding bluegill but glad I held off! There are some grubs on fish in our area, I think the snail related grub comes is passed via the feces of the herons - which cant really use my lake because of the steep shoreline, and I dont see many snails - if any. I'll be checking for parasites this spring/summer just to see how things are coming along.
I dont have RES in this area - mainly just sunfish. Fun little things, I have some 9 inchers in the lake and they are pretty nice to watch. When Im snorkelling they follow me - I look behind and there can be hundreds of them.
So, just to be clear, Tinylake, the "bluegill" that you have are actually pumpkinseeds?
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
My pond's snails get eaten by my yellow perch YP, and by my rainbow trout. I don't have any RES, have few snails, and have not seen a grub in any of my fish, LMB, YP, GSF, HBG, BG, trout, BCP, in the 15 years I've been eating them.
The very large gape of tiger trout TT and their brown trout/brook trout parentage lends me to think that this hybrid species will consume many sunfish. A possible added bonus is the TT are not reproducing predators, so you can easily control their numbers. They are beautiful fish, much more so than internet photos can show. If you can source TT. I'd highly recommend your trying some of them. My 20+ inch TT will thrash and swallow filleted carcasses of any sized GSF and BG right off the dock. That's a thrilling sight.
That you have 9" PS for the table seems to me that things are going well at this point. I'd like to have any sized PS!
My pond's snails get eaten by my yellow perch YP, and by my rainbow trout. I don't have any RES, have few snails, and have not seen a grub in any of my fish, LMB, YP, GSF, HBG, BG, trout, BCP, in the 15 years I've been eating them.
The very large gape of tiger trout TT and their brown trout/brook trout parentage lends me to think that this hybrid species will consume many sunfish. A possible added bonus is the TT are not reproducing predators, so you can easily control their numbers. They are beautiful fish, much more so than internet photos can show. If you can source TT. I'd highly recommend your trying some of them. My 20+ inch TT will thrash and swallow filleted carcasses of any sized GSF and BG right off the dock. That's a thrilling sight.
That you have 9" PS for the table seems to me that things are going well at this point. I'd like to have any sized PS!
Id love to try the TT but I cant get them here! Unfortunately the construction of ponds, lakes and wetlands is not that popular in Ontario. The 9 inchers and bigger are pretty much record sized PS in this area - they are monsters.
The late Dave Willis had ponds in I believe North Dakota that overpopulated and stunted with PS and SMB. That may not be a bad thing with the RBT because the PS will stay smaller and be food for the RBT. The SMB spawn at a lower water temp than LMB, and the SMB spawning temp is within the range that RBT will live so I think you can have the best of both worlds. SMB don't "have to have" clear flowing water and rocky areas, but they DO need rocky areas between pea gravel and golf ball/tennis ball sizes to pull off a successful spawn that are in 1'-4' water depth (possibly deeper depending on water clarity).
