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#572479 02/02/25 09:20 AM
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Brand new pond owner here. On 12-30-24 I had a 200’ x 85’ 15’ at the deepest part dug. While digging we found thick blue clay throughout the pond. When we quit digging although at a very slow rate water was coming up through the clay. That night of 12/30/24 we had a 24 hr very light rain. At the end of rain I had about 4ft of water at the deepest part of my pond. Since then all we have gotten was a few inches of snow and freezing temps. I have never lost any water since the first rain. My question is since we didn’t hit a spring and we will be relying mostly on snow and rain to fill it how long should it expect the filling process to take? Also what can I expect when the Michigan rainy season hits as far as ground water helping fill it? Be nice as I’m new please? [Linked Image][Linked Image]

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Is the pond a dug pond as basically a clay basin compacted hole with very little drainage watershed or does it have some water shed area that drains fallen surface rain water into the pond basin?


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Bill Cody #572486 02/02/25 07:57 PM
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All the spoils removed from the pond were placed on thee sides of the pond. In the spring the plan is to have a 10’ path final graded around three sides of the pond. The 4th side is in our yard and will be a beach.

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Ed R #572487 02/02/25 10:59 PM
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Welcome to the forum Ed. Not sure I have a good answer to your question but my experience in watching our pond fill was in a couple stages.

First, our pond was dug in the fall and once the ground was frozen any form of moisture was funneled in the pond off the watershed.
Spring, summer and fall work differently as the watershed will take some of the water until it's either saturated or it's a heavy enough downpour for the watershed to kick in.

Mother nature was kind to us in my case and we were 3/4 full coming out of the first winter. Spring topped it off a couple of times before heading into summer (which was pretty dry). Rains in the fall were light and the ground basically absorbed most of the rain. Winter freeze with some snow and rain topped the pond off again.

How fast you fill is all dependent on how much watershed feeds the pond and how wet the weather is vs how thirsty the soil is.

If there's no watershed and this is a ground water pond based on the water table, the pond will fill and empty based on the water level in the water table.

I'm not sure which version of a pond you have as it sounds like in your first post you were having water enter the pond slowly as you quit digging with no rain. This sounds like a water table filling event to me. On 12/30 with your light rain and 4' of water in the sounds like there is some watershed and if the ground was already frozen you like capitalized on nearly 100% of the run off.

Good luck on the new pond!


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Boondoggle #572489 02/03/25 08:13 AM
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Thank you for the reply. My ground was not froze at all when we dug my pond. Also how big was your pond?

Ed R #572491 02/03/25 11:36 AM
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Took three years to fill our last built 4 acre pond.

The answer is it various wildly.

Last edited by jludwig; 02/03/25 11:36 AM.
Ed R #572494 02/03/25 01:52 PM
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The best pond builders I know usually suggest to get the pond filled asap to minimize soil dry out and cracking of the side wall basin that tends to cause leaks or later leakage of water seeping through the dry cracked basin walls. Cracks in the clay layer is no longer compacted clay when it gets saturated or layered over with water.

Once the pond is full your narrow band of perimeter water shed and around 30" of precipitation should keep your pond well filled with water. Consider routing some roof water water into the pond. Well sealed ponds in NW Ohio similar to yours usually go down around 12"-14" during a summer dry period. Losing more water than that indicates to me too much leakage through the basin. 30" of precip is a lot of water onto the pond surface area each year.

My concern for your pond is the seepage of water into the deep part of the completed clay basin. When the pond is full this puts strong head pressure on those areas where water was seeping into the basin. Pressure from deep water can also cause water to seep out and produce as noted above something somewhat toward a ground water pond. An extended summer dry period in central MI will tell you how well all areas of that thick blue clay basin holds water under 15ft of water pressure.

What type of fishery are you planning for this 0.4ac central Michigan pond? You know that perch, smallmouth, and walleye are options? I have grown YP easily to 14"-16" long in small ponds but it needs to be done RIGHT.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/03/25 01:58 PM.

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Bill Cody #572498 02/03/25 04:50 PM
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Thank you for the reply. I am planning on Bluegills, yellow perch, and walleye. I plan to stock fat head minnows first , then after a few months bluegill and perch, then in 6 months walleye. I do have 4 ponds behind me that do very well.

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I would omit BG if walleye(WE) are the only predator. WE are very poor predators of BG and the BG will overpopulate and suppress YP growth and numbers. I never stock BG in with YP if YP are the main panfish. If it were me I would initially stock just minnows and YP fingerlings or 4"-6"ers and then in fall or the next year add the WE. If you have access to some smallmouth angling (river,pond or lake) I would after 12months of minnows & YP go catch 2-5 SMB any size and use them with YP for the first 3-5 yrs. Then if you need more predation in 4-6 yrs then add those WE. However I think if you use minnows, YP and a few SMB you will discover you do not need or want WE. YP and SMB with some fatheads/shiners are very compatible. My experience is BG are very problematic when used with YP and SMB or WE. If you could find some pumpkinseeds in local waters they could be used with YP-SMB as an experiment. If you really like YP at 12"-14" sizes, I would forget any sunfish types.

I have researched YP in ponds for over 38 years. My main pond has only perch with a big number of them 8"-15". I have a neighbor that has a 1/3 ac pellet fed YP only pond with just 1 LMBass that controls the excess numbers of small YP. We calculat4ed that one LMbass eats around 400-500 small perch per year as about 40 lbs of small YP. He harvests around 50 12"+ YP per year. I am working on an article for PBoss magazine about that pond when I get some more fishery data about it.

Are you getting your stocker fish from Imlay Fish Farm? I went to graduate school at CMU Mt Pleasant.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/03/25 08:00 PM.

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Ed R #572504 02/03/25 11:09 PM
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Agree strongly with Bill on the Walleye not controlling BG, in fact, I too have seen this become a problem.
I do like the idea of the lower production of Pumpkinseeds though.

Bill Cody #572505 02/04/25 04:50 AM
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Yes I plan on hitting Imlay city for all my fish. I really want walleye for fun table fare. If I do go this route what would you add to the walleye to control the BG?

Last edited by Ed R; 02/04/25 04:53 AM.
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In my experience I would leave the BG out at the very beginning. Once BG are in -- you are stuck with them basically forever unless you have access to economical full pond draining or using fish renovation chemicals. Believe me -- you don't want the results of too frequent BG reproduction and forage fish complications of the BG roundish shape unless you are using the LMB as main predator who have the evolutionary design and adaptation of eating lots of BG and other wide round bodied sunfish such as redear sunfish or pumpkinseeds. Most all high quality walleye and SMB of most northern lakes do not have BG as the main forage fish. There is very good reason for this. There are some exceptions where WE and SMB live successfully with some BG but these situations are special situations and I doubt very much your pond will be special in that regard to have high success with BG and WE as the main fishery. The Lord did not design those two fish to live successfully and thrive together. WE evolved in cooler far northern areas and BG evolved in areas more southern. Each has dramatically different habitat requirements for best success which are strong reasons why they have significantly different needs.

If I don't know anything and if you have to have your BG affection then IMO use hybrid bluegill. They grow well, are meaty bodied, taste like BG, fight better than BG, eat pellets well, anglers can actively and effectively catch them, and the HBG have limited reproduction . With limited reproduction WE and SMB when at common numbers and limited weed/algae growths could control the minimal reproduction produced from HBG. Without occasional restocking of more HBG, IMO the big negative to the HBG is after many years of the surviving of the reproduced individuals, their population numbers trend toward green sunfish body shape, characteristics and behavior patterns. However if you make an effort to maintain a strong density of WE and SMB some individuals of the recruitment of HBG can be minimized. But you need to be on "top of your game" for controlling recruitment of HBG when using just WE and SMB as predators - neither one thrives on eating BG.

In my experience and that of many other pond owners is -- the pond grown walleye (WE) will not get any or much bigger than 3 lbs as 19"-21". Plus when having to live and grow eating BG, those pond living WE will most often be thin bodied and not plump like the typical lake-run walleye you are used to catching. Been there,, done all this several times already. Walleye apparently do not like growing to big sizes in small ponds compared to how they perform in lake life. I had to renovate my entire pond after stocking high numbers (abt80/ac) of 8"-10" walleye did not control a problem green sunfish and YP population. Apparently WE are not the aggressive predator that many anglers think they are. No one has ever explained this WHY thing to my satisfaction. As you experience WE in your pond fishery balance, plan to have an alternative predator that will be able to control whatever forage panfish that have been constantly reproducing and has become ever-present. Plus these sunfish/panfish could easily be after 5-8 years, as the WE fail as being an adequate predator, the panfish could be over populated, small sizes and problematic numbers of them. Now you have a fishery mess to try and correct. You have been informed. I would like to see you prove me wrong about this.
Amen - End of Sermon

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/04/25 02:16 PM.

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Ed R #572520 02/04/25 02:52 PM
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WE ,SMB, some type of small prey fish and FH as well. Could try limited # of YP.
















Bill Cody #572523 02/04/25 03:23 PM
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Thanks for that knowledge. Looks like I’ll be doing YP and WE. 19 to 20 inch WE would be outstanding. How many would you stock in a .4 acre pond to start ? I was thinking 10-15 to see how they do. Also do pellets change the taste of fish? I really appreciate your replies.

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WE and YP very well complement each other as seen in many natural northern fisheries. They are naturals when together. I suggest that you start with some fathead minnows (FHM) with good habitat for them to reproduce and have adequate AMOUNT of habitat cover of small tree tops attached to the bank shoreline so you know where the tree habitat structures are and the older tree tops can be removed, replaced or more added so as to always maintain good or abundant numbers of the FHM. When FHM are not commonly seen around the pond edges THEN there is too much predation and not enough cover in ponds with your similar planned fishery of YP and minimal predator reproductions. It is the strong reproductions from predators that causes problems for FHM populations. FHM can survive predation when enough habitat affords them adequate refugia in ponds mainly with fisheries of YP and WE or SMB. Habitat allows them protection. Too many bass predators overcome protection of good habitat. In your case the fingerling YP will help take some WE predatory pressure off the FHM. A 2nd or 3rd optional forage fish (see below) will also help FHM maintain a population IF and IF there is adequate types and amounts of habitat. Naturalized plant populations both emergent and submerged enhance the structure habitat.

Numbers of YP & WE to stock depends on how much natural food is always available and if YP are eating pellets. When YP are eating pellets the numbers as total weight of perch can be 3X to 5X (times) more than if no pellets are used. No pellet feeding always results in fewer pounds of fish per acre. One can have big fish without pellet feeding however the fish poundages / ac are significantly less. Carrying capacity and food availability always govern total weight of fish in a pond. How one manages those fish capacity numbers as biomass weight determines how big those fish are able to become. Fewer fish numbers usually means bigger average sizes.

In my many years of eating fish, I and others have never noticed any difference in taste or texture of the fillets. IMO protein of any source is digested and basic digested proteins (amino acids) are rearranged by the consumer(fish) from the food item (pellets) into new proteins as fish flesh. Off flavor of fish is almost always caused by types of algae in the water and the quality of the water conditions the fish are living in.

Whenever fish are not growing well then they are:
1. too crowded - too abundant
2. not enough food is present for the number of wolves or pigs eating the food
The job of the pond manager is to keep and monitor the numbers of predators and prey fish for some sort of a prey - predator numbers balance. Note this balance is constantly and continually changing daily especially in Spring and early Summers during spawnings. Good records of the angling catch results as to the percentages of each size group caught, removed or returned will provide a good idea of the size structure of the panfish and predator populations. I have good success using larger fish traps (baited and unbaited) for removing excess numbers each year of small perch when not enough predation occurs. Very often too many panfish results in panfish sizes getting too stacked up in the smaller sizes. For my YP pond I try to keep about 50% or more of my YP angler catches to be of those 8" or longer. Use this as a basis going forward. For my one short 30 min of ice fishing attempt this winter, I caught and then harvested were 6 YP - smallest was 12.5" and 2 largest were 14.75"; those 6 female YP weighed 9.1 lbs.

If I was adamant about growing high quality YP, I would not stock any YP that were not pre-pellet trained. Pellet feeding increases pond productivity which translates into growing more perch pounds per acre. Non-pellet YP will thrive when managed well,,,,, but those YP not grow as fast and you will not have as many as when they regularly eat high protein pellets. Trout food pellets will work GOOD for growing YP. I would start with in 0.4 ac around 150-200 4"-6" pellet eating YP in spring with the initial 4-6 lbs of FHM. No pellet eating YP, then make the YP stocking number 80-120/ac. Make sure ample flat surface habitat is available for FHM spawning. Then in Fall of pond year 1 or 2 add 8-12 of the 6"-10" WE. The fewer WE present the better they will grow. When YP are reproducing IMO it will be good to then have 1 SMB in the pond - just one. You can always add more as WE are harvested as a put and take predator. Plan on each WE to be eating up to 400 small fish minnows &/or YP per year be it FHM or YP. Do the math.

If it were my pond I would go locally and trap capture at least some bluntnose minnows from streams, or lakes. Bluntnose (BNM) are a very common or abundant minnow in about every MI natural water type. BNM in lakes with normal habitats are well able to long term sustain a viable population. If they do not survive in ponds the pond does not have adequate habitats and probably TOO many predators per acre. You can't buy BNM from any fish farms; they usually don't even know what they are. Some mom & pop live bait shops may know the BNM. MY every experience with BNM show they are a better, larger growing and faster swimming forage fish compared to the slow easy catch FHM. After 3-5 years and if you have FHM spawning habitats, there will be many more BNM compared to FHM. As a third less popular option you could see if Imlay has some golden shiners and stock 1-3 lbs of them 1.5"-4".

There is another pond owner near you east of Saginaw that came to OH and got some specially grown spotfin shiners for his YP pond. If needed I can get you his name and address so you could maybe get some spotfin shiners from his MI growing pond population.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/07/25 09:27 AM. Reason: Information Improvements

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Ed R #572566 02/06/25 09:35 PM
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Hi Ed, I'm on the other side of MI just south of GR. I have a smaller pond but have learned a lot from this forum in the past 13 years. I'm happy to help where I can. I never stocked BG or HBG and am very glad I made that decision early on. I've experimented with several types of forage and I prefer spotfin shiners although lately I'm having a harder time keeping recruitment going so I may need to find some new breeders to keep things going. I agree that I need to find a source for Blunthead minnows or other local forage options. I started my pond with a large stocking of golden shiners but would not do that again either. I have some 7 or 8" shiners left that are a nuisance and can't wait till they 'age out' of the picture.

My YP and forage alone was a great combination for me. Kids love catching perch and contrary to rumor, perch do fine in small ponds, even if the ponds aren't that deep and in our pond they pellet trained very easily and do not become hook shy. So far the spotfins have been able to reproduce and keep up.

I've learned a lot about aeration, the methods that work and don't work for sealing leaks, and also how it can be a lot of work when you are hand raking algae piles that are endless. Since this is basically in your yard, be careful to avoid phosphorous fertilizer or any type of runoff of yard fertilizer if possible. It will create tremendous algae blooms and increase the nutrient load which then makes you have an explosion of algae and more work pulling it out.

A 'healthy' bloom is OK, but to really know what your water will do you will want at some point to do a water test to learn about your water quality characteristics. My pond is a dug groundwater pond with really no regular runoff but has a 'vein' that allows the levels to fluctuate up and down with the water table. I can minimize the flow with sealant but it still goes up and down to some degree. I also have mature hardwoods on two sides that suck water like crazy in the summer plus the traditional evaporation.

After 13 years I had my first fish kill. Still trying to understand the how and why but the good news is that my perch population was getting pretty low and I have not had perch egg survival that past 2 years. I had planned to restock perch this spring and had hoped to catch them through the ice in a fellow PondBoss member's pond if we can find time and sufficient ice to do that yet.

Anyway, feel free to ask questions and Bill (Dr. Perch) is guiding you in all the right ways.

I had a few walleye in my pond for fun and I also tried lake chubsuckers, redear sunfish (didn't survive the first winter), longear sunfish (same result i believe) and I have bucket stocked some pumpkinseed but have never seen them successfully make a nesting circle.

Your journey is off to a good start!

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Ditto to what was said above. YP egg survival depends on the proper habitat being in the pond for them to drape their egg skeins over, NOT lay them on the bottom of the pond. Dense brush with the top of the brush 2'-4' below the surface of the water, or use tumbleweeds and they will swim through them and drape their eggs through them.


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