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Hey all, per Mr. Lusk, I've been given permission to start this thread on Saugeye for sale and more importantly, what they should be used for and the variables that affect the outcome.
First off, let me explain that the research available has been from within state-agencies that raise this hybrid and the stockings conducted by me in the private sector have been modeled after state stocking methods and the results have been fairly uniform to expectations.
Saugeye originally were produced as an aggressive option to walleye, particular in areas WAE recruitment was historically low at best. In these cases, it didn't seem to matter what the stocking rates were-or the size of Walleye stocked.
The one thing these impoundments had in common was warmer water in mid summer, slightly less visibility and lower dissolved O2 profiles which also followed a total acreage size of less than 300 acres.
Along these lines, stocking of SAE began and many things changed that were somewhat unpredicted.
One item that became apparent fairly quickly was year-end zero recruitment. It took quite a few years of data to determine if this was widely variable, and as it has turned out, SAE fry stocking vs WAE stocking produces on average, about 11 times better return and nobody has an answer-specifically-why that is.
A secondary change that was noted was panfish species started increasing in size-dramatically-and more and more research continued on this and the pattern followed suit in 99% of the locations studied.
This was about the point a lot of heads came together and determined SAE are not shad dependent such as what is normally present in healthy WAE populations achieving good growth rates. There are other pelagic forage species that WAE do well on in more northern impoundments, but those species don't reproduce well-if at all-in smaller impoundments. The SAE were obviously keying in on sunfish species more common to littoral zone locations.
At this point, research began on concentrating stockings where BG, GSF, BCP, WCP and such species were uncontrolled and stunted in most conditions. This is about the time period I became involved with this program and have been able to observe for 18 years exactly how these impoundments were changing with my own eyes. The most recent program began 5 years ago in a 2 acre pond where BG blew up in a manner we started extracting fyke nets with 1000's of BG out of every net on a single night set. This pond was stocked with FHM, GSH, BG and later that fall, SMB of 10-12" and CC of varying sizes.
In 2022, we stocked 50 SAE of 5" size to get started. By fall of 2023 these had achieved 15" and the decision was made to put 100 more in at a smaller 4-5" size to work on the next year class of BG.
Spring 2024, original SAE were 19-20" and had thinned down BG numbers and allowed some good growth of remaining fish (BG).
At the size limit of 18", some of the original stockers were being harvested so the addition of 100 intermediates would be cropping from the bottom-up (most effective control of a species). No additional stockings in 2024. In 2025, 3,000 fry will be stocked following previously conducted research that shows 2-3% survival year end 2025 should be expected.
In the summer of this past year, good numbers of larger BG were being caught alongside good numbers of very nicely sized SMB.
This is 1 of 100's of impoundments that have continued to show very similar results using the same stocking principles.
I want to add that NE and other states are transitioning to SAE in many historically WAE impoundments based in large part to these findings.
Another point of interest is the SAE will do well outside of the normal range of WAE-especially in warmer, more turbid waters.
As far as what that range is... that's uncharted territory. We have some data on decent recruitment in northern TX, and due to this, we are anticipating acceptable numbers being possible across the northern-most parts of TX thru the northen half of AR, the northern 1/3 of MS, northern tier of GA across the western parts of NC and on up from there. I'm sure there are parts in the western U.S. where they will do fine but state approval could be tougher, but I will sure make the calls if requests come out of those western locations.
Reasons to stock or NOT to stock :
SAE are not for everyone, like anything we do here, 1 change affects many other areas in most cases.
Where I find SAE fit best are where LMB may not be desirable or are not getting the job done controlling certain panfish species.
Factors to consider are goals for your fishery, are you wanting WAE and they don't grow as they should, are BG or Crappie out of hand, or do you just want a fish that looks and tastes like a WAE but your small pond is not appropriate for Walleye-most are not and WAE tend to grow much slower in a pond of less than 35-50 acres. In most cases studied, SAE by end of year 2 were 25-30% larger than WAE in the same impoundment.
If your pond is pretty well balanced I would not recommend upsetting the basket by stocking SAE.
SAE can be utilized similar to HSB in low numbers as a bonus fish.
SAE are much more aggressive than WAE, typical of hybrid vigor in other species we see also.
SAE will frequent extremely shallow water at night after achieving a certain growth point. Early in life as fry, they primarily live in a pelagic manner where plankton densities are most abundant, and with their earlier hatch time, they are big enough that species such as B&WCP that also move to these areas shortly after hatch, become targets of the SAE.
Each case really requires an evaluation to understand what is expected and recommendations can vary slightly from one pond/lake to another.
There are cases where fingerlings are appropriate but in most cases, Fry are stocked at a rate specific to the condition of the ponds and have proven to return nearly identical numbers at 1 yr.
Stockings of fry for existing fisheries are from 1,000/ac to 1,500/ac and will be shipped via Fedex overnight services, day 3 post hatch to be stocked on day 4.
We are taking orders for fry NOW and I will be fertilizing "X" number of eggs based on our stocking needs and the number that we receive requests for. Shipping should begin around 4/10/25 until we are done hatching requested numbers. The entire process can only be stretched so far due to timing requirements, which may possibly be 10-12 days of total hatching.
As most understand, we have to get cleared to ship into most states and this requires some paperwork. All fish will be shipped with parent stock health certs and a copy of your states approval documents which most want pre-shipment approval 14 days prior to, so this leaves us about 60-70 days to accept orders for fry.
Intermediates of 4-6" will be available in limited numbers and are not required in most cases. Again, the fry stockings are from 22 years of collection data on different stocking rates and those numbers have proven adequate to achieve a fishable population or as predators without adding tremendous transportation fees.
I welcome any questions on the forum about this process and expectations you may have.
If you wish to discuss via phone, my number is listed in my business link below.
You can also contact TJ Hudson or myself via email.

TJ- tj@hudlandmgmt.com
Kenny- kenny@aquaticspecialties.info

Last edited by Snipe; 01/07/25 12:30 AM.
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Another point of interest is the SAE will do well outside of the normal range of WAE-especially in warmer, more turbid waters.
Saugeye do quite well near here in Buckeye Lake, a large, shallow (average depth might be 6') 200 year old BOW originally built to supply water for the Ohio-Erie Canal system. The lake gets a ton of pleasure boaters and water skiers in the Summer, when the churned-up water looks like a dirty Latte.


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Snipe,

Thanks for this long post. Also, thanks for this project!

There is one segment that I don't understand at all:

"One item that became apparent fairly quickly was year-end zero recruitment. It took quite a few years of data to determine if this was widely variable, and as it has turned out, SAE fry stocking vs WAE stocking produces on average, about 11 times better return and nobody has an answer-specifically-why that is."

Does the "zero recruitment" refer to stockings of walleye fry? Meaning there were many times in Kansas that walleye fry were stocked and subsequent sampling found zero older fish?

Otherwise, if stocking walleye fingerlings (or slightly larger) and getting zero recruitment to larger fish, that sounds to me like there are a lot of factors making walleye a very poor choice for stocking in this region.

Your saugeye project sounds very beneficial to me in many circumstances. Even more so, if the closest alternative is a truly terrible choice.

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Just to add, Indiana has given the green light for SAE stocking. I will have the state required paperwork to Snipe within 30 days.


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Great post Snipe! You and I talked several times last year about getting Saugeye in my pond, but we never made it happen. You thought it would help the crappie fishery. I'm glad to see you moving forward with this as I think it'll be a great thing for a lot of BOW.

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Man I wish we could get those here in Canada!

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Originally Posted by Tinylake
Man I wish we could get those here in Canada!
That's one thing I've never looked into but we have been "over-doing" health inspections to cover great lakes regions and I guess I could inquire. Pretty sure I know what the answer will be but I'll look into it.

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Originally Posted by FishinRod
Snipe,

Thanks for this long post. Also, thanks for this project!

There is one segment that I don't understand at all:

"One item that became apparent fairly quickly was year-end zero recruitment. It took quite a few years of data to determine if this was widely variable, and as it has turned out, SAE fry stocking vs WAE stocking produces on average, about 11 times better return and nobody has an answer-specifically-why that is."

Does the "zero recruitment" refer to stockings of walleye fry? Meaning there were many times in Kansas that walleye fry were stocked and subsequent sampling found zero older fish?

Otherwise, if stocking walleye fingerlings (or slightly larger) and getting zero recruitment to larger fish, that sounds to me like there are a lot of factors making walleye a very poor choice for stocking in this region.

Your saugeye project sounds very beneficial to me in many circumstances. Even more so, if the closest alternative is a truly terrible choice.
Rod, what that should read is "year-end, year zero recruitment" as-in first fall prior to being 1 year old. The bottom line is they recruit much better than year zero WAE, again, we don't know why.
As for zero recruitment of WAE, yes, in fall net samples following spring fry stockings, fry have not proven to enhance the population much if any. It was "assumed" SAE fry stockings would show similar results but not the pattern that emerged.
As for your comment on getting very low recruitment from intermediate fish size stocking of WAE, yes, obviously they are not going to prosper there and as to why, some factors can be determined as a cause, other factors we may never know.

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Originally Posted by Snipe
Originally Posted by Tinylake
Man I wish we could get those here in Canada!
That's one thing I've never looked into but we have been "over-doing" health inspections to cover great lakes regions and I guess I could inquire. Pretty sure I know what the answer will be but I'll look into it.

FWIW a supplier here looked into getting SMB fry from Canada. The amount of paperwork required was so much/so bad that he gave up.


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"Road trip!!!" (-Animal House, 1978)


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted by Sunil
"Road trip!!!" (-Animal House, 1978)
We're taking your brother's car.


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Guys, need to clear a few things up on stocking strategies..
For the first stocking, recommendations are 1500/ac. For annual stockings thereafter 1000-1200/ac will give a good representation of year class recruits. If stocking biannually, the rate would be 1200-1500/ac. By the end of yr 2, an assessment needs to be made on progress for the SAE AND the forage structure, rates can then be adjusted to best suit the conditions.
I've received quite a few emails regarding follow-up stockings in which case we can address that in each situation.

Last edited by Snipe; 01/10/25 08:06 PM.
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OK, as expected, there are some that are not comfortable with fry stockings - I get that - but we have been taught a lot about fish species we all deal with regularly and have pretty much been able to have a certain "expectation" as to what survival rates will be.
Unfortunately, The data available proves survival of SAE fry - when stocked correctly - saugeye fry after many years of stocking studies are producing better recruitment than fingerling stockings of Saugeye (SAE). These stockings of SAE fry are proving to a unique type of fish.

I received some results of state recruitment saygeye in-depth studies yesterday of the 24 season fall sampling and the average recruits (survivals) for SAE were over 300% greater for SAE vs WAE(walleye) stocked at the same number per acre.
The state of Kansas DNR all have formulas for calculating potential numbers based on setting trap nets and gill nets in the same place in each impoundment every year for several days as close to the historical sampling dates as possible.

Average figures were 0.5 to 0.7 percent of year end-year zero recruitment for WAE versus for
Saugeye averages were 2.2 to 8.4% survival when stocked as fry. The highest numbers of recruits for SAE were found in exactly the opposite conditions where WAE have the highest recruitment.
Example - consistent visibility of less than 36" produced better SAE recruitment with water temps appearing to have little affect.
Visibilities of 4'+ showed higher numbers of WAE recruits compared to lower visibility.
Conclusions are Saugeye fry survival to adult stages show higher survival in lower water clarity compared to walleye who better survive in more clear water of 4 ft or more visibilities.

Higher water temps had a much greater affect on WAE than SAE but we already are aware of that.

One of our hatchery managers told me yesterday, 2025 will be the last year for stocking of fingerling SAE because recruitment of SAE has proven to be better when fry were stocked compared to using the fingerling sizes. DNR WAE stockings will go primarily to using fingerlings because the opposite occurs.

I have received comments of being skeptical about stocking fry..... that's Okay, then using the SAE fry are not for you then.

I strongly believe in selling a customer what they need... sometimes the customer has a "want" more than a need when there is very little data publicly available. I can only provide state in-depth fishery findings and the numbers they share with me that I ask for.
Return business is our goal and screwing someone over never works well for anyone.

I'm staking my reputation on my state fishery brothers that have for years worked with saugeye and what I've learned from them over many years of utilizing these hybrid saugeye.

If anyone has questions, please post and ask away. The questions and answers will benefit all who read it.

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Snipe,

I think I was the only one asking questions in this thread about the recruitment of fry.

I was NOT doubting your data, or the efficacy of stocking fry.

I was just asking questions to determine which conditions make stocking fry a good strategy. Particularly, since I have seen very few threads on Pond Boss about stocking fry compared to older fish.

I greatly appreciate you coming back to the thread and providing more information, especially on the water conditions where stocking fry has had very good results.

Keep up the good work. I can't wait to read the Pond Boss threads in a few years after you get saugeye into a lot of ponds and small lakes of the members!

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I suspect Snipe has gotten several messages about fry stocking and it's easier to make a post that covers it than it is to reply to everyone individually.

Kenny, we talked several times last year about stocking SAE fingerlings in my 19 acre watershed pond. Somehow we didn't make it happen. Would you send me a message or text with recommendations for a fry stocking on my place (number of fry, cost, and possible dates)?

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Catscratch-PM coming your way.

Rod- The issue has not been on the forum here, it's been on phone calls, texts, FB messenger, etc..
Where I run into issues is explaining what this hybrid is best at. People assume I am looking at this from an outside view-just like everyone else. People don't know how deeply I've been involved in this program at the hands-on level, which has allowed me to view this from the inside-out. Nobody else has ever had that view. The workings of the Saugeye are well understood within the agencies that build this fish, now I'm breaking new ground bringing it into a market where it has never before been available with knowledge of what this hybrid is good for.
One item of interest is the unexplainable high survival of fry for this species that is somewhat opposite of what we've been taught about most species. This high survival is well documented and very consistent in agency studies.
I have found one other producer that attempted SAE over 20 years ago and after a good 45 min conversation it became clear they did not understand the best use of the fish and marketed these as additional fishing opportunity along side current Walleye populations where walleye thrived. Wrong fit, I won't sell fish to those folks. 20+ years later, I believe I have a much more in-depth understanding of where these fit. Keep the questions coming if you have them.

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Enjoyed the post and several of the comments and questions. I did a little reading while trying to sort out our stocking for the pond and "everything" I read on ponds with WAE and SAE totally lines up with much in this post about the temps and turbidity for SAE being a better candidate for pond use. I hadn't read anywhere else about the sunfish appetite / control of SAE. The tough part was trying to find a SAE distributor (non-existent) from all of my calls to various hatcheries.

Very nice to see you guys take this on Snipe. At some point in the future I hope to add a few bonus fish in.

If the goal is truly bonus fish with SAE in a farm pond less than 3 acres would you apply the same stocking rate or lower it a tad knowing that some yearly stocking may be needed to get them to stick? I think your first post was fry at 1,000 / ac for existing fisheries.


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Steve, each case will require evaluation to do the best job we can. Some of the smaller impoundments do well with half-or even less-the original stocking. The point to remember is these-like most fish-control from the bottom-up. It's good to keep pressure on sunfish species in some-not all-situations, so keeping some smaller 6-12" fish going in will help get numbers in check if that's the goal.

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Thanks Snipe. I returned a message.

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I've got a question. What about for folks with a clean slate pond? What would the recommended stocking rate be for them? Seems like this may be a case where it is better to stock the fry and later introduce the forage species when the fry have grown into small fingerlings. What would be a good stocking plan for an initial stocking?

Second question is. What is the breakdown on cost for various quantities?

Last edited by jpsdad; 02/01/25 05:47 AM.

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I would not recommend any SAE in a new pond. Zero.
The exception to that would be after initial predator stocking, there becomes an issue with BG, GSF (sunfish in general) or Crappie.
SAE will out-grow everything else so stocking these would be to have a WAE-like fish in existing fisheries.
If you want them as a main predator, maybe stock for a target of 25 per acre on initial, 8-12 per acre every other year or 5-7 annually.
Cost of fry includes a consultation on every stocking request and a number of fry stocked will be recommended for the variables that are known.
Fry will be in the .33/each range PLUS overnight shipping.
I have edited this after realizing I said including shipping. It does not include shipping.
If your conditions are right for 1,000 per acre, or conditions are such that it requires 1,500 per acre, we are trying to price the initial stocking for a PER ACRE price as we can't control existing conditions of each pond, we are still looking for the same recruitment rate for each acre.


(Edit: to stock fry for grow out, with nothing else present, you could never stock enough prey to get ahead of it again.)-This comment is for grow out of high intensity numbers where nothing else would survive in any numbers.
The question has come up on starting the fry alone and adding a fishery around the fry stocking. This may be very possible if adult BG/BCP are stocked above 4" to attain a spawn shortly after stocking for the BG. I don't think it is possible for the crappie to spawn at what would be the required timing to have the Saugeye fry to the 2" size, which will be around the first of June.

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What does fishing for saugeye in a pond look like? Are they a weedline fish or middle of the pond fish? Will they bite in the daytime or are they an early morning/late evening fish? Generally easy to catch or difficult to catch? Survival rates if you catch and release?

The way I read the previous post my 19 acre pond would need 400-500 fry on the initial stocking?

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Catscratch, Saugeye act more like a bass than a walleye.. I've caught them throwing spinnerbaits up in the trash, they will smash a chatterbait, we catch them trolling cranks on the flats just like we would walleye. You'll cross them more frequently in shallow water where you'd expect to catch LMB and I have caught them throughout the day, but like most species, low-light periods are when they have the advantage.

As for stocking rates, for 19 acres, 19,000 fry would be the general rule in an existing fishery to get the same year 1 recruitment you would have stocking 6" fish. We're looking for 2-4% on initial stocking.

If we try to stock 6" fish in this situation, 2 things occur,
1, we miss predation of the high number of YOY fish we may be trying to control at an early stage.
2, by stocking intermediates at the same recommended density, we are at 400 bucks an acre plus delivery, where shipping fry for -say a 19 acre lake- equates to 375-475/acre plus 150 for overnight shipping, depending on the density we decide is best for each impoundment. For your water, Cat, we will probably be less per acre based on species and conditions present.. your survival is going to be higher scale based on the info you sent me.
I'm looking at total cost to the customer to get "X" result.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/02/25 02:01 PM. Reason: for easier to read, less congestion
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Thanks for the info Snipe.
Message sent...

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Originally Posted by Snipe
I would not recommend any SAE in a new pond. Zero.
The exception to that would be after initial predator stocking, there becomes an issue with BG, GSF (sunfish in general) or Crappie.
SAE will out-grow everything else so stocking these would be to have a WAE-like fish in existing fisheries.
If you want them as a main predator, maybe stock for a target of 25 per acre on initial, 8-12 per acre every other year or 5-7 annually.
Cost of fry includes a consultation on every stocking request and a number of fry stocked will be recommended for the variables that are known.
Fry will be in the .33/each range PLUS overnight shipping.
I have edited this after realizing I said including shipping. It does not include shipping.
If your conditions are right for 1,000 per acre, or conditions are such that it requires 1,500 per acre, we are trying to price the initial stocking for a PER ACRE price as we can't control existing conditions of each pond, we are still looking for the same recruitment rate for each acre.


(Edit: to stock fry for grow out, with nothing else present, you could never stock enough prey to get ahead of it again.)-This comment is for grow out of high intensity numbers where nothing else would survive in any numbers.
The question has come up on starting the fry alone and adding a fishery around the fry stocking. This may be very possible if adult BG/BCP are stocked above 4" to attain a spawn shortly after stocking for the BG. I don't think it is possible for the crappie to spawn at what would be the required timing to have the Saugeye fry to the 2" size, which will be around the first of June.

I'm bumping this to reflect changes made for clarification.
Thanks guys for reaching out.

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by BJ Nick - 02/09/25 02:23 PM
Recommendations for Saugeye stocking
by Snipe - 02/09/25 02:22 PM
Dock and Overflow questions.
by esshup - 02/09/25 01:29 PM
Boom Boat Rev2
by esshup - 02/09/25 01:26 PM
What did you do at your pond today?
by esshup - 02/09/25 01:24 PM
How steep can I make a clay bank?
by esshup - 02/09/25 12:54 PM
New pond
by esshup - 02/09/25 11:51 AM
New Pond Water Want Clear Up
by esshup - 02/09/25 11:05 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Koi
Koi
by PAfarmPondPGH69, October 22
2 1/4 pound BGxRES
2 1/4 pound BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, October 12
What you can do with an inch of nightcrawler
What you can do with an inch of nightcrawler
by Theo Gallus, September 21
How to Out Condello Bruce Condello ...
How to Out Condello Bruce Condello ...
by Theo Gallus, August 3
Major change since 2009
Major change since 2009
by SENKOSAM, July 3
Fishing with my Best Buddy
Fishing with my Best Buddy
by Theo Gallus, June 29

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