Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Breeding in holding tanks

It has been said many times in this forum that to get big fish, they must be able to eat! So, I was wondering that if one had a temperature controlled stock tank, would one be able to have a breeding pair (or two) of bluegill that could produce multiple offspring in a year, in cooler climates?
I am guessing that it would have to have some cover and certainly great bedding material. Since bluegill spawn in colonies, maybe even a few pairs.
If this happened, then with it being a controlled environment, what would you feed the fry to start the growing and orientation to pellets?

Several threads on the topic.

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=487276#Post487276

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428806&page=1

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=32676&Number=426353#Post426353

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=34701&Number=453449#Post453449

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=93071&page=1

Lots of great info on raising and growing fish to feeder size. I have a small pond around 20x20 where I can raise them up to feeding size. The way I see it, being in Ohio, I would probably only get 2 breeding’s if the temperature was not controlled. By controlling the temperature on a tank, I could start early and end later in the season. Once the eggs hatch, I could separate the fry from the pairs, grow them out while the breeders regenerate. Or replace the pairs with new ones to speed up the process. I am looking for options to supplement what Mother Nature can not provide. From what I have read, one of the most important parts to growing bigger fish is to make sure that predators don’t miss a meal.
So in essence, I am wondering if BG will breed in say a watering trough if it was made to resemble something natural.
Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Some of fish spawning has to do with the sun and moon cycles. Just a consideration for your project.

If you have never done this before, then you have a very steep and slippery slope learning curve to accomplish your goals for raising BG in tanks to feed your targeted predator fish. I assume your are wanting to grow BG fry to feed to another fish?. You never really explained in detail why you want to utilize the BG fry. Tell us more details why you want to grow / raise the BG fry in a tank/s? IMO having dealt with fish growing for over 45 years it will be much easier and quicker to get your predators eating pellets which will likely involve changing your fish growing methods. Even BG are considered a form of predator in that they normally eat live animal foods. In fisheries, predator does not always mean fish eating fish.

It is difficult but not impossible to train larger fish to eat pellets, but this takes creativity and quite a bit of effort and a significant amount of time. The easiest and simplest way in a pond system, but not the only way, to do this is start replacing your existing predators with pellet raised ones on a 1:1 or 2:1 basis or higher. Then you feed the target fish high protein pellets. This method is the most cost effective and most efficient way to grow big fish quickly compared to feeding them small fish. Many members here have proven this method many times. Feeding fish to fish is energy inefficient and more costly that pellet feeding fish. You are doing a form or animal husbandry we call aquaculture. Growing the feeder fish to feed to other fish is a very time consuming operation that often results in lots of fish deaths as one learns how and what to do and what not to do. Your home work, if done well, should have explained that live food to grow fish requires 10 lbs of wet food to grow 1 lb of fish whereas using the best quality fish pellets can achieve a 1.5 to 1 ratio of pellets to grow 1 lb of fish biomass. The best fish foods are designed to have a high food conversion ratio. IMO cheap fish good is not worth the money for growing the higher quality sport fish species.

My goal is to have bass that can be fished for in a natural way. I guess I am concerned that pellet feed bass would not react to lures in the same way that bass eating bg would. So I was thinking that if I could raise extra bg to add to the pond that I could raise quality bass that would act naturally. I am not wanting to raise trophy bass per se, just good ones with a touch of challenge.
I was thinking that if I could raise bg then I could probably raise golden shiners to take care of the bigger fish, at some point.
This is all sorta new to me so I am just trying to figure out what is possible, what is doable and what just needs to be forgotten.
I am very grateful for your advice and look forward to what I am going to be able to accomplish
Thank you

In all my years of dealing with and angling for pellet trained LMB that were in ponds with natural foods available, I have never had trouble catching those LMB. Now once you create hook smart LMB (aka hook shy LMB) then that becomes a problem catching LMB. At this point one has to be smarter than the hook smart LMB to catch them. I will look up an article about this Dr Dave Willis (fishery professor) and I wrote about this topic in a past article in PBoss magazine. Stay tuned.

Read more about hook smart LMB in the Common Q&A Archives section.

In your opinion pellet trained bass act the same as non trained, in that they lurk around ambush points and cover and will take natural prey when it comes by? Having zero experience with pt fish I just figured that their natural instincts would be diminished and that most any splash would send the school over for a look. I guess I am not worried about the challenge being too hard, but too easy.
In one of the other ponds, I plan to have some work done on it to restore it back to good shape. Then I will stock it with hbg that are pellet trained for the entertainment of grandkids and new anglers to be. Am I wrong in thinking that the hbg will be easy to catch with live and artificial offerings ? Or, am I comparing apples to oranges?
These things I do not know and am thankful for people like yourself, who do know and are willing to help.
Thanks

If you're going to fish with live bluegill as the bait, most any LMB will hit that whether pellet fed or not. Thats more hard-wired into LMB than the pellet training.

B Bug,

I am sure we have some experts on the forum about breeding and raising fish in tanks. However, I do not typically see much discussion in that area on Pond Boss.

However, I do see a lot of discussions in the aquarium forums on those topics. I have read discussions on how to get the broodstock fish to successfully spawn, how to feed the fry, when to separate the parents (or other adults) from the fry, etc.

Perhaps, you might have more success if you tried to copy their methods and scaled UP to your tank operations, rather than trying to scale down the "pond" methods of raising forage fish?

Good luck on your project! Also, if you do mostly follow the "aquarium people", I believe many people on Pond Boss would still love to read about your results and offer suggestions, improvements, etc. And of course, learn from you.

IMO pellet trained bass still have the basic predator instincts although predatory behavior could be at times be somewhat diminished. One expert here to get more aggressive pellet fed LMB behavior for anglers, he just stopped feeding the fish for a day or two prior to angling to increase catch rates. All well experienced anglers know there are days when fish are harder to catch. As in all types of fishing one has to use creative angling methods when fish are not biting well.

The LMB angling article that I mentioned above is in back issue Pond Boss Magazine Mar-Apr 2006 pg 26-28: Largemouth Bass Angling and Catchability by Dr Dave Willis and Bill Cody. D.Willis & B.Cody look into how angler catches can monitor your LMB, and what affects angling has on their catchability.

I love to bass fish. In the past 50 years, I have used live bait maybe five times to fish for bass, always in FL for giants. I know live bait is a killer however I prefer artificial most of which I make. The only reason I am considering growing bg is just to make sure that I can fill the gaps with what the pond will have naturally.
I also “plan” to scuba with these fish, if the pond stays clear enough. I find it fascinating and informative watching fish go about their business. This pond is a new build that has been put on hold until a favorable forecast is predicted next year. The builder and I have been in regular communication in regards as to what I am wanting and how to keep it clear. But that’s off topic.
As for the aquarium people, great idea! I would never have thought of that. I will certainly look into that.
when it comes to moon phases, I know it plays a big role in bass for sure but it seems like the bg are more controlled by temperature. I have never seen Fall spawners but I have seen very tiny bg in the early Spring that had to be product of a late summer early Fall bedding activity. That and the things I have read here in regards to multiple spawns in TX, has led me down this path.
I will do some more research and probably start next spring. As I mentioned before, there are other ponds on the farm that could benefit from my attempts, if they were to be successful.
I will keep the forum updated on my successes and failures.
If there is any more thoughts or ideas, I would love to hear them.
Thanks

“Filling in the gaps” for raising high quality bass using all natural forage is a matter of maintaining the natural BALANCE of numbers of forage and numbers of predators. As predators become too abundant or have too much carrying capacity poundage the forage densities / amounts become limiting and their numbers decrease and thus bass lose standard weight (SW) and have lower relative weight(RW). Learn about these items. Monitoring RW is the way that most fishery managers monitor the amount of the PROPER SIZES and numbers of forage items that are present. As you know from angling for LMB in FL as bass grow they eat bigger and bigger foods. This is VERY important for continuing their growth. You didn't fish for the FL bass using fathead minnows. Thus growing bigger bass or getting them to continue growing well requires the Proper Sizes of foods they need to continuing good growth. BG fry feed only 1"-2" bass. PROPER HABITAT allows fry to grow to sizes needed that feed bigger fish. Proper Habitat promotes proper amount of spawning activity and fry survival. When a pond is not getting enough fry,,, Habitat is not correct for the GOALS of the pond and too many predators were probably present for the type and amount of Habitat present.

Lower RW values of individuals generally indicates there are too many hogs feeding at the trough. For more good discussions of forage amounts and the RW of LMB study and learn during the winter all about this in LMB Management in PB Archives; see links. Growing quality bass or growing and managing for trophy bass usually requires different forms of management and available foods.
General LMB Management
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255372#Post255372
Trophy LMB Management
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=557289#Post557289

Most pond owners do not realize how much food a LMB needs to maintain its maintenance weight (standard wt) and then the amount of EXTRA need food consumption to grow it / them to the next pound. Well fed LMB are capable of growing 1 lb per year IF THEY ARE ABLE TO EAT ENOUGH OF THE RIGHT SIZES OF FORAGE FOODS. Learn all about this. LMB even in the central northern US that are not growing at least 1/2 to 1 lb per year are too crowded and not getting enough food. Thin out the LMB so remaining bass have more food. Just adding extra forage is almost always not the answer due to pond carrying capacity and standing crop.

IMO for how much food (fish) it takes to grow LMB and what little amount of BG fry that you can raise in an exterior tank/s this will have a VERY VERY little impact for helping to grow more bass in your pond. IMO your best way to raise additional forage items for “filling in the gaps” would be to do one or both of these ideas.
1. While the Builder is there working with equipment have him spend 4 to 10 hours building you a “proper” forage pond. Heavy on Proper Forage Pond. A good forage pond allows for easy harvest of fish/invertebrates. A good forage pond, when managed as productive, can grow thousands of times more of fry / fingerlings compared to the amount of your expense and efforts needed to mess with growing BG in outdoor tank/s. The forage pond could also be utilized for polyculture for additionally growing different species that you could not feasibly grow in an outdoor tank.
2. Reduce the size of your new pond by an appropriate amount of cubic yds of dirt moved and use those dirt moving hours spent building a forage pond. Research forage pond plans and construction for ideas about what makes a good forage ponds and their management. In the past Pond Boss magazine (back issues) had a regular feature called Tiny Pond discussed ideas of what to do with them. If really interested research our PB Archives for the annual PB magazine Contents and Indexes of all the Back Issues titled - POND BOSS ARTICLES AND INDEX–by Year



What is your definition and the Builder’s definition of the of clear pond water??? Know the details of his definition. Those clear water transparencies (turbidity) could be significantly different.

Clear pond water is a relative term. Your reading here on the Forum will indicate that the best water clarity for growing the best sport fishery is to promote water clarity of 2ft to 3ft (secchi disk) that responds to the proper balance of plankton both represented by phytoplankton and zooplankton. Water with lower amounts of plankton reduces the fish carrying capacity of the pond i.e. fewer pounds of fish. Water turbidity with its plankton is usually always heavily influenced by suspended silt, detritus and dirt and do not contribute to fish growth. It is good to know the difference when pond productivity is important. The fishery term of plankton is often called a bloom. The definition of a bloom is a very relative term just as clear water is a relative term. Clear water and bloom are compared to what?

For a reference of a clarity measurement (clear) in your or this current Pond Boss forum thread, What is the builder proposing to do for his part of pond construction to keep the pond clear???

I help mange many ponds that range from clear water (vis 8ft to 16ft) to turbid water (10” to 2ft). In my experience pond management and the fishes and animals present have a lot more to do with water clarity than how the pond was built. I am ‘nosey’ for what your builder proposes to do to promote “clear water” by his definition?.

To get us all on the same page give us what sizes and what the maximum depths are of all the ponds that are on the property and the fishes in them. Did you mention the proposed size of the planned new pond?

Thank you Bill, I appreciate the great thought and knowledge that always comes with your replies.
Starting with the size. Initially the pond we are considering to build is going to be around 2 acres and 20 to 25 feet in depth. The surrounding runoff areas consist of slightly graded pasture fields that will become more hayfields then pasture because of the extra nutrients the cows produce. The contractors main thought was that even though silt runoff would be minimal based on grade and vegetation, building a small sediment pond at the head would add an extra layer in keeping the suspended particles lower. I was thinking that it would be a grow out pond for the fingerling bg.
I have kicked around the idea of putting in an underwater rock structure, something like a wing dam where the overflow from the sediment pond enters to help as well. Your thoughts on that are very welcome.
Desired clarity, if we are able to be in the eight to ten foot range and still be fertile enough to maintain balance, I will be elated. I am considering vegetation and feel that when kept under control can aide to the overall health of the pond. My concern there is keeping it where I want it and the compost left behind. Weeds are easier to add later then to eradicate so that’s a hold for now.
Habitat. For starters, the plan is to have 4 to 6 bg spawning areas with proper cover/protection nearby. As for what type of cover, there will be small chunk rocks that will transition into larger(fist size) rocks up to rocks about 8 to 10 inches across. Laced throughout the rocks will be pvc structures to help protect the offspring. We will incorporate depth changes during excavation like leaving mounds of dirt that will have stumps secured to the bottom with more rocks and fish shelters. There will also be some abrupt drops located just off of the shoreline. I plan to have an area around 15 yards long that runs parallel with the shore that goes from 18 inches to 4 feet. The ledge will run out around 3 feet prior to the initial straight drop. Lmb spawning areas will have 55 gallon barrels cut down and buried in depths from 18 inches to 3’. The barrels will look like a chair, leaving a third of it taller to help the buck in protecting the eggs. The barrels will be buried around a foot deep with the lower lip being 2 to 3 inches off the bottom and filled with fine pea gravel. The dam will be rip rap from just above the water line to around ten feet with irregular features underwater starting at five feet. I will have a plan made for aeration drawn up once the pond is closed up and we know exactly what we will need.
One of the other ponds really opened my eyes in regards to what you have said about the food supply. When my in-laws were living on the farm, very very little was done to help the ponds. They were built 25 years ago and other than removing most of the cattails and splashing blue dye in them, they were on their own. There were bass and bg placed on the initial stocking and they were self regulated. You could always get a bass or ten every time you fished. Just nothing of size and in today’s terms, poor rw. Four years ago a family of otters came thru and killed an extremely large number of adults. I didn’t fish there for the next two years because every time I would go look, there would be thousands of bg from 1 to 3 inches long swimming everywhere. On top of that were the tiny bullfrogs that swam freely about. At the time I lived in MN and figured this was not the best pond to fish, when I was in town. Move to year three. When I approached the pond, the number of bg he diminished and the frogs were all but gone. Time to make a lap around the pond. You know the rest of the story. Lower numbers but elevated rw, really elevated. I had an okay understanding onthis part of the game I just didn’t have the green light to do anything to make it happen. Now I do.
I will try to add pictures of the existing ponds. Pond 1 is directly below the house and the one I mentioned above. It is 3/4 acre with around 3’ visibility in the Spring and Fall and 18” or less in the Summer. Currently does not have air but will next Spring. Started using Muckaway in July and saw water clarity improve. Maybe it was the drought or the treatment but obviously more clear. Max depth right now is 10’ and down 3’ do to lack of rain. Three obvious year classes, this years hatch, last year and the ones that survived to breed again.
Pond 2 is located as you approach the house and is a bit smaller and what I have discovered is in need of a dredging. This pond has several large pine trees around it, contributing to the massive amount of organic matter and its sludge issue. The last time I fished it, there were few bass and only one year class from what I could find. Did not see any bg or small bass. The pond is currently in poor shape, imho.
Pond 3 is tiny, maybe 40’ across in a circle. Completely lined with cattails, pretty much smashed into a large mud hole by the cattle. I know at one point it had bass in it however I think it’s void of any fish. This pond is going to have the dam removed, scooped out and a new one rebuilt. This will be the hbg pond where pellet feed fish will be raised for the grandchildren.
Pond 4 is a secluded 1acre pond that has the cleanest looking water with 5’ visibility pretty much year round. At one point it had an abundance of milfoil in it and I think my father in law had grass carp added. There is some kind of mussel that was randomly introduced, thus the clear water. This pond has several small bass with slightly lower rw.
The bottom is fairly firm and the dam is in great shape. Best guess on depth is between 10 and 15 feet. I feel that this one can be brought back to a higher quality with some management applied. I have not seen any big fish at this pond in a while but it is where I caught my pb in OH, 25” and pushing 8lbs real hard.
I will definitely look into how to build a forage and see if the sediment pond could be used or if I just have one built.
I will attempt to ad some photos

Gradually working on responses to your pond descriptions.

Perfect, I am not in a hurry since we are about to enter Winter and I will soon have plenty of time to research more.
And, Fishinrod, I did find someone with the same idea on a aquaculture site. I think it was dated but still very interesting information. Their biggest issue was feeding the fry. They didn’t have a good idea about what to feed them and was thinking that a pellet that has been smashed in water may work. I will have the parents and fry separated directly after hatching to prevent the babies becoming food for the parents and will hopefully have something for them that is small enough for them to eat.

Optimal brand of foods have available smaller quantities of high quality specialty fry and small fingerling goods that users give it excellent reviews. . Note - technically as soon as the fry develops a full complement of fins and scales it is considered a fingerling. Most Yolk fry are hatched with only the pectoral and caudal fins and no scales. Full finage and scales soon develop as the individual grows. I fed newly hatched tropical fish a solution of egg yolk. Do your homework on the web for more foods for swim-up fry. .

B BUG
This past summer I bought 100 tilapia fingerlings, labeled as "fry" from the hatchery. They were 1/2" to 3/4" long.
To feed them I blenderized dry Optimal BG, as I had no finely processed feed from that manufacturer.
The fish seemed to take to the powder well, grew rapidly, and are eating partially crushed BG now.
Possibly the higher nutrient value of the proper Optimal fingerling sized feed would give even better results. All this was just part of an experiment to raise some aquarium tilapia.

I read some of those types of threads on the aquaculture sites many years back, just out of scientific curiosity.

I vaguely remember people getting "green water" from local ponds and nurturing that supply to feed fry that eat tiny plants. There were also people that kept daphnia or brine shrimp in their own tanks to be able to feed the fry at their earliest stages.

Someone on Pond Boss even had a very slow conveyer belt type of feeder that they used for fry. I think they ground typical fish pellets into a very fine powder, and a tiny bit was periodically dumped into the tank every few hours without direct human supervision.

I am sure I am wrong on many of the specifics I typed above, but you should have lots of avenues to pursue from the aquaculture people.

4Corners, thanks for the reply. That was what I was considering and like Fishinrod said another option was to raise brine shrimp. Both of those options and the green water option were talked about for feeding fry on a site that may not still be active but was very much in line with what I was thinking.
If I can grind pellets to feed the fry, that would be my best option.
When it gets closer to Spring, I will gather up what I need and try to make this happen.
Thank you all for the support

A few items to make not of:
Remember that the TP "fry" 1/2"-3/4" received by 4Corners were actually early fingerlings and were capable of eating significantly larger particles compared to late stage BG yolk fry. Also smallest TP fingerlings IMO would not need as high of protein as BG fry. FYI - BG fry 48 hrs post hatch are tiny 3.7-4.2mm when they start looking for food items. In nature this is almost always rotifer size particles 0.05 to 0.1 mm (0.0039in). FYI - Newly hatched brine shrimp are 0.45 mm and 4X to 8X bigger than small rotifers. Ground food to feed newly hatch BG should be a liquid suspension of dust particle sizes. Adding artificial food to feed fry involves high quality filtration to maintain "happy water". Decompositional byproducts of excess fry powder can lower water quality to kill delicate fry. Do good home work so you don't kill several thousand BG fry on your first attempt. As I noted earlier IMO having BG spawning and raising fry in tank containers is probably not your best and least efforts way to fed larger fish.

I totally understand what your are saying and agree that it may well be completely beyond my capabilities. The information on food size is something I have been looking for and am glad that you brought it into the conversation. If I determine that I am unable to make this a doable project, I will pull the plug before I get too deep into it.
If I determine that it is just not worth the effort, I will be completely satisfied with what Mother Nature will give to the resident bass and the size that they will achieve, naturally.
I realize that it’s not totally about food but I figured that if they had it and the proper habitat they would have the opportunity to grow bigger,faster. I live on the Ohio River and you can almost walk across the river on the backs of the shad, this time of the year so I get it that it’s not totally about food. There seems to always be some size of food source available however the fishing/catching and the rw are extremely low on the river. Has been for years, just google lightest Bassmaster Classic, ever.
As always, thank you for your insight.

I have thought about and worked for several days for providing my opinions and ideas for this new pond project . Below are my evaluations if they were my four older ponds with plans for building a new pond around 2 acres and 20 to 25 feet in depth and water input from hay and pasture fields. If you want some more advice, ideas, and opinions do not hesitate to ask about them. Other members are always willing to help with comments.

Author’s New Pond Plan – “Desired clarity in the eight to ten foot range and still be fertile enough to maintain balance, I will be elated.” for a 2 ac pond having runoff form a cow pasture and a hay field.

Maintaining Balance is a relative condition. Here is some background about water clarity in new and older ponds especially in Ohio and the midwest.
About all natural waters with alkalinity above 40 will be able to maintain a productive increased ecological balance. Actually the planned new 2 ac pond could easily have too much surface runoff fertility for a water clarity of 8-10 ft. Many NEWLY built ponds in Ohio have water clarity of 2-4ft due to fresh soil nutrient leaching from a fresh clay /dirt basin and natural water alkalinity above 60-80mg/L(ppm). Wind and wave exposed clay/dirt shorelines usually allow frequent silt resuspensions that significantly contribute to water turbidity. The concentration of alkalinity stimulates both planktonic and attached algal photosynthesis. Low alkalinity water of 10-20ppm results in low fish production because adequate alkalinity is necessary for increased plankton production that boosts all higher forms of organisms that result in total pond productivity and decreased water clarity. Low alkalinity water even when fertilized will not normally produce a large abundance of phytoplankton to create higher standing crops of fish.

Summary - A balance of plankton and larger organisms can or will be present in basically all water types, however even those waters with very low productivities and low alkalinity CAN and will have a "balance" of predator / prey. Balance of numbers in ponds is constantly changing due to recruitments and deaths. Low nutrient and low alkalinity fisheries will have a low or very low carrying capacity i.e. very few fish pounds per acre and it is basically determined by the availability of alkalinity and associated abundance of water borne nutrients.

Almost always the clearer the water becomes the fewer pounds of fish that will be present. Same as with producing and maintaining ALL long term higher quality fisheries, it becomes very important to have careful management of the game fish numbers and total fish weights that are ultimately based on the amount of fertility present. Pellet feeding increases fish biomass and increases pond fertility (nutrient accumulation). Water shed runoff always carries some concentration of nutrients. Learn more about carrying capacity from this in depth discussion Pond Boss Forum Archives.
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92440#Post92440

But Always Remember This - The higher the carrying capacity becomes the more stressed the system becomes and the more vulnerable it is to some sort of failure that usually results as a fish kill. All waters have limits as to how much they will grow. And the amount grown is based on the fertility of the pond. Generally the more nutrients that are available in the water column the less clarity that is present.

Usually in a good fishery the forage base should be at least 10 times the poundage of game fish. Clear balanced water of 8ft to10ft will IMO and that of other fishery studies will only produce per acre around 4 to 6 total lbs of gamefish (LMB), that are supported by 40lbs of forage fish and around 400lbs of invertebrates per acre of the very clear water such as 8-16ft. . This is not a lot of fish and forage, because very clear water is not a productive gamefish environment. This is one reason the current consensus of the fish pros is that the best water clarity for producing a high quality fishery is said to be around 2ft to 3ft of transparency and one that is dominated by "adequate" planktons and one not due to mainly of suspended silt where the water is mainly the color of the local sediment – brownish – gray.

Fish can be grown to large sizes in real clear water 8-10ft, HOWEVER one cannot have very many of them per acre for them to be always thriving and growing. In high water clarity the total predator weight per acre could only be 4 to 6 pounds. In most cases with clear water there are too many thin body or too small game fish where each year more are being produced (reproduction- recruitment). Too many fish usually results in slow or slower growing fish. Carefully managing numbers based on a pond or lake’s productivity is a critical part of producing a CONSISTANT high quality fishery; be it high or low numbers of sportfish. However most everyone wants lots of big sportfish regardless of the water clarity. It is relatively easy with a new water body to produce a high quality fishery. However as the pond becomes old, this is when the quality of fish usually declines as evidenced in your descriptions for the fisheries of your older ponds. Often the decline is caused by lack of good management or mismanagement. Often the pond maintains a fairly consistent fertility over time however the fertility is incorporated into different forms. Often one of these forms is bound fertility in too many small fish that are out of balance.

When managing for very clear water the more fish and fish foods (nutrients) that are added to the system the more fertile it becomes and the more bottom muck that is accumulated. Increased fertility produces plankton that causes or stimulates reduced water clarity. Incoming nutrients of any type decreases water clarity by generally allowing more plankton to grow. This assumes the reduced clarity is not caused primarily by suspended silt (evidenced by more brown soil color rather than shades of green).

Pond 2 As an older pond ages,,,,, it requires more effort to keep it in good user friendly, high, quality condition. For these old deep sludge laden, over grown ponds that have had many years of organic accumulations, usually all areas are too shallow and often leaks occur and embankments are compromised with various shoreline problems, IMO it is best to rebuild these aging ponds and start anew with the current best available management ideas and methods to give the pond new life and produce a new bottom basin with a high quality more useable pond. Before building a new pond, I would first rebuild and maybe enlarge or reduce the size of this No 2 pond and restart it anew with good basin shapes, proper depths and improved habitat conditions and maybe adequate aeration to lengthen it life span. This rebuilt pond fishery could serve the purpose of the proposed tiny HBG Pond describes next as number 3. Also see later fishery ideas.

Pond 3 I agree. I would rebuild and convert this tiny pond into some sort of multi-purpose forage pond where you could raise several different species of sport fish or use it for various types of forage fish production/s depending on needs of the other ponds. It should be designed and shaped to easily concentrate and harvest the annual crop of fish for restocking into the other ponds.

Pond 4 “is a secluded 1ac with cleanest looking water 5’ visibility pretty much year round. At one point an abundance of milfoil in it and I think grass carp & some kind of mussel added that was randomly introduced, thus the clear water. Has several small bass with slightly lower rw. Bottom fairly firm and the dam is in great shape. Best guess on depth is between 10 and 15 feet. Feel this one can be brought back to a higher quality with management. Not seen any big fish at this pond recently but it is where I caught my pb in OH, 25” and pushing 8lbs.”

Before building any new pond, while the construction equipment is present working on other pond projects, I would have this pond pumped to a draw down or completely drained and have sides steepened and the bottom deepened so the deep area is 25% or more of the total area; preferably 16-18ft deep. One option is when at low water level, kill off the fishery and restart it with a new stocking to properly manage it to produce those 4 to 8 lb LMB of the original days.

If these ponds were mine and before building a new pond I would spend the money to put them all in a better more user friendly, higher quality condition. Do this all at one time or gradually renew each one over the next few years. Once renewed these ponds could be used to grow different types of fishery combinations such as BG-LMB, regular Hyb.BG(HBG) , redear sunfish(RES) or specklebelly sunfish (SBS as a hybrid RES) with appropriate predators, a combo of yellow perch(YP) with SMB and/or hybrid striped bass, crappie – hyb crappie with LMB/hybrid striped bass(HSB) combo, or a Walleye(WE) & yellow perch, or a SMB &YP, or WE-SMB-YP, a pond with general fishing having catfish, and a put and take fall stockings of trout. There are numerous possibilities with each of these renewed ponds.

If you are not familiar with SBS they are a HBG of BGXRES. They are known or professed to grow large up to 3 lbs and larger than std HBG. IMO this SBS is a better type of HBG compared to the std HBG of BGXGSF. With using regular HBG, successive generations(Fx) over time trend toward having more green sunfish features. I help manage an old pond that was originally stocked with HBG and now all sunfish average small size and look identical to GSF. With the SBS, later generations the offspring will revert toward either BG or RES and not the lower usable quality GSF. IMO GSF are a prolific, aggressive, large mouth, problematic, predatory type of specie that function as a lower quality of sunfish.

With your current pond situations, I would not spend $30,000 to $40,000 building a new 2 ac pond. I would use a big portion of that money to renew the existing ponds. In these fully renewed ponds, I would then stock some of the suggested interesting fish combos that I mentioned above and then learn about their benefits to you. With some trial and error in the smaller renewed ponds, learn how to best manage those fish combinations. Then after learning what these fisheries can do for your goals, then build your new planned pond and stock the new larger pond from the best fish combos and things that you learned managing the different fish combos in the smaller ponds. For my clients with various goals I use the various types of specialty fish combos noted above and the pond owners are very happy with those unique fisheries. Good management is key for all forms of quality fisheries.