Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Base of the Food Chain

Have been reading a little on the site and looking at some research papers for the YP next spring. I had seen a couple of references and thought I would check for some opinions on "what to do" if anything.

My understanding is that the YP will be the first to spawn of the species of have in the pond (YP, LMB, FHM, BG, RES, GSH, GAMS). I think the order I listed them in is also the order they will spawn with some overlapping. In my reading on various sites there was a reference or two that YP can or will put a pretty big dent in the base of the food chain (daphnia - water flea) and that could impact how well the other fish are able to pass the bottleneck in food as they grow.

I'm curious. Is there anything that can be done to "bolster" the base of the chain?

Is "bolstering" needed or is this where the fertilizer kicks in as the water temps warm a little more to help the pond recover?

We did fertilize last year and plan to again in 2025 but I think the recommendation on that is starting the program at 60 degrees on water temps.
Continuing to feed with Optimal BG in 2025 as well.

Not sure of the answer, Boon, but I was under the impression that GSH (Golden Shiners) spawn earlier in the year, like maybe late March or early April.

I know if you order GSH fry from Andersons Fish Farms, they are delivered in the April/May time frame.

Very possible on the spawning not being in the exact order. Pretty confident that the YP go first followed by the LMB and then the rest. I was leaning more to the bottom of the chain with zooplankton / daphnia. It was interesting to see the daphnia specifically called out in a couple of studies being nearly depleted and before they could recover the next series of fish spawned which caused the bottleneck in forage as the bottom of the chain ultimately causing slower growth.

Haven't seen much here on that topic so I thought I would post to see "if it's a thing".

Because you have GSH and depending on their density of the 4"- 7" GSH brooders, they usually dominate or frequent the deeper open water areas - known as the pelagic zone or open waters vs the littoral near shore zone usually containing the rooted vegetation. For reference - GSH reproduction begins in the spring when the water temperature reaches around 68ºF and continues for several months until the water temperature exceeds 81ºF. One pound of golden shiners as abt 40-60 of 4” is capable to produce around 500,000 eggs in a season. What happens to all those eggs from just one pound of brood sizes of GSH???

GSH are considered omnivorous as young fish and later mainly planktivores eating lots of zooplankton, microcrustaceans and any small insect larvae (lots of hatching midges) that they usually cherry pick from what are the edible sizes wherever they are feeding. The groups roam throughout the pond and small lakes feeding at the surface, mid-water or anywhere in the littoral zone where they find the current best buffet. As many at PB forum know, larger GSH will readily eat 1/8”-3/16” even sometimes ¼”pellets and even fish fry. Thus numerous items are fair game for the bigger sizes of GSH.

Back to your question “In my reading on various sites there was a reference or two that YP can or will put a pretty big dent in the base of the food chain (daphnia - water flea) and that could impact how well the other fish are able to pass the bottleneck in food as they grow.”

Several things will influence the “bottleneck” situation in a pond. 1. Number of hatchling YP, 2. Number of adult GSH, 3. Size or amount of zooplankton, 4. Clarity of the water.
Basically the intensity of the YP spawn and numbers of eggs that hatch as active weakly swimming fry, about the length of 4-6mm and the I on this page, will move to the open water where they do feed on the edible sizes of zooplankton starting with mostly planktonic rotifers and immature crustaceans. With lots of zooplankton the YP fry grow fast possibly 1mm/day. However, if the pond has a decent GSH population the adult shiners that frequent the open water zone will devoir or crop lots of YP fry and edible zooplankton depending on the density and sizes of adult shiners. IMO the Adult GSH are much faster and better swimmers compared to YP fry. Thus the adult GSH can also act as a significant “bottleneck” by consuming lots of pelagic zooplankton and the YP fry. I suspect that each adult GSH could easily eat if present 50 to 100 YP fry per day. If each GSH of 400 adult GSH eats just 50 fry per day that is a total loss of 20,000 YP fry per day and they as a group can significantly limit the recruitment of YP. I am not sure how big of a perch fry the GSH is able to catch and eat. YP fry usually stay in the open water zone until they are around 1” long (often around 30 days old) and then move back into the littoral zone to continue growing as fingerlings.

If you are really interested in this topic, then this spring hatch some YP fry in a bucket of aerated water and put a significant number (several 100 -1000) of the fry in a aquarium with a few GSH and watch what happens and report back here with your results. YP eggs will hatch in 7-12 days depending on temperature. To make the whole process easier and not have to deal with egg fungus problems allow an egg ribbon moved and draped onto a tree branch to continue developing naturally in the pond. All very white eggs are unfertilized and decaying. As the ribbon ages the yellow-cream colored eggs will darken (eyed stage) about 6-8 days after the spawn (50-55F). Then bring a portion of the ribbon into your aerated bucket of water and slowly raise the temperature to around 60-65F. Hatch should then occur quickly 1-2 days. Fry at hatching will first lay on the bottom for about 16-24 hrs then become active swimmers. Move lots of them (estimated number) into the aquarium with one or a couple GSH. Watch and learn and please report back with your results. This would be a good project to do with the kids - educational quality time.

Boondoggle,

I bet Bill's project would definitely win a blue ribbon as a 4-H project, if you had a kid/grandkid to take the lead.

(Plus I know YOU would have fun!)

Very interesting BC! I wasn't aware of the movement of the YP out to open water. This could absolutely be why I felt like we didn't get a spawn off this year. It's possible it occurred, though I never saw a ribbon, and they were out in the open water. To date I still haven't seen any YoY that I could identify as YP. Hoping 2025 will have better results.

Best chances for survival sound like making sure the shallow water weed zone is full of complex habitat and pond weeds?

Is there really any benefit to fertilizing pre 60 degree to get the algae and zooplankton off to a good start?

As to the test you mentioned, we might be able to pull this off. I have a little spot out in the garage that would be great for an aquarium set up. Should work great in the same area with the grow light for the garden and seeds that will be coming up. Might skip on the GSH part of the test though.....If I could figure out the travel with egg ribbons from the pond, back to the house successfully, get a hatch, transplant them into the aquarium I'd hate to see what happens as those numbers dwindle to GSH predation.

Would still have to figure out how to feed the little guys (Azteca had some great vids in his previous posts), and return them to swim in the pond should there be some success. What happens in the pond however....out of my control.

The shallow water habitat will help all small fish to survive including the YP when they move into the shallows. IMO lots of early YP fry can be lost due to predation especially if GSH are common to abundant when fry hatch. Unguarded early season fry are probably delicious treats for all 2"-6" fish coming out of winter. If after a couple more years and you are not seeing much if any YP recruitment, and to have a harvestable YP fishery you will probably every year or two have buy some 4"-6" YP and ladder stock them. Another good option would be to build a small 0.1 ac shallow forage pond and grow minnows and YP fry. People are usually surprised how many fish can be grown in a 0.1 ac pond with no predators.

I’m not sure how much help the fertilizing will be for the YP fry. If you are able to get a bloom from fertilization it will not be a negative. However if the fertilization does not happen until the water is 60F it might be a week or two late for the best benefit to YP fry. Homework may help here with this info.
NOTE - When fertilizing a pond to get a phytoplankton bloom the zooplankton development is at least 1 week to 10+days for the zooplankton population to significantly increase to where it has a lot of zooplankton for the fry. As the zooplankton community develops the smallest species develop first and then the medium sized ones and the largest individuals such as Cladocerans develop near the end of the early growth phase that might be 10 to 15 days later after the water turns to its green hue.

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Moving the YP ribbons is easy. Just locate the ribbon dip it out and dump the ribbon in a bucket of water. Ribbons can be transferred as fresh laid or allowed to develop for several days and then transferred. Lengthy egg development time in a tank or bucket can result in fungus on eggs. Best success for full lengthy 10-12 day development of eggs in a container usually requires regular water exchanges and or using a daily disinfectant to minimize fungal growth.

Prespawn - I cut twiggy saplings (6ft-9ft) and lay them along the pond banks with tops 6"-3ft deep. . Some have used old or new spruce branches. I think an old Xmas tree with all branches on one side cut off so it lays flat on the bottom could work well for females to drape ribbons on the topside of the tree so eggs are more visible. I use bricks or flat thin cement /tile pieces to hold the sapling top down in the water & butts firmly on the bank for later sapling removal after the spawn. YP of each pond have preferred sides where the females like to best place their egg ribbons. Most of my YP prefer the south-east side but will put some eggs on all sides except north. My neighbor's YP like the north side. Place a couple saplings on each bank to learn what side your YP prefer most for egg drop.

I don’t have much experience feeding new YP fry. A lot of the growers, who I know much about, allow the fry to grow to 1” long then use one of several methods of feed training the small fingerlings. When the fry develop the full complement of fins at about ½” – ¾” long they are technically called a fingerling.