Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Evaluating New Pond and New Fish

I bring this up only to say it is a GOOD thing that you have other types of shiners in addition to having GSH. If you can arrange for your larger fish to eat the larger GSH (before they get too big) then some of the potential negatives go away. If the GSH get beyond the gape size of your predator fish then comes possible issues where the very large GSH eat a lot of young fry and other things and then they do not have their own predator anymore.

The emeralds and common shiners offer the advantage of diversity and perhaps they will also offer an advantage in continuing to reproduce for more years than the GSH.

I don't know if common and emerald shiners need crevices to spawn but if you can create the proper spawning conditions for the various kinds of shiners you can also encourage their survival.

If anyone can get emerald or common shiners spawning in a pond, it is publishable valuable information. Pond spawning for them is not reported anywhere in the literature nor in any of my experimental stockings for emeralds or common shiners. It has been tried in various ponds. Try it for your results.

There is a pondowner in Maine that has a good chance of getting the Eastern Silvery Minnow to reproduce in his pond. Time will soon tell the rest of this story. Another option for a pond reproducing alternative minnow/shiner for those in the mid-US is the Mississippi Silvery Minnow 3"-6" max. It is a broadcast spawner that egg hatching does not require current from stream conditions.

The Central Silvery Minnow is another candidate for pond spawning ability as it has non-adhesive eggs that are deposited over a silt bottom. If the eggs don't get eaten first they should hatch on the mud bottom to provide some fry. Do you know the chances with small sunfish present of what eggs surviving for lying on the pond bottom with sunfish present? End of first summer the hatchlings can be 3"-3.5" with adults as big a max of 6".

There is also a Western Silvery Minnow.

All I was trying to do is explain why I wouldn't use functions of gain (that depend on consumption and maintenance) to model length.

I am not sure what you are getting at. You think LMB that you see swimming with GC have higher metabolism than the LMB you see under your dock? You think LMB swimming with GC consume more than LMB under your dock but way less because of it? You think LMB which are of same age but weigh more are more efficient at conversion? It's really not clear and I am neither going to argue for or against whatever you may be thinking.

In the end, the reason I accept the laboratory results is because I have asked all those questions long ago. Most tend to agree that it takes 5 lbs BG to support 1 lbs of LMB for a year IN A POND. The laboratory results are consistent with that. So why should I argue against the laboratory with arguments like you mentioned above? If it takes 5 lbs according to the laboratory tests across a full climactic year, then maybe it makes no difference where the fish are. I am satisfied that for a population of fish I can apply the laboratory relationships to model average growth as a function of consumption.

We have seen similar questions on the forum before - and I believe it sure would be nice for a lot of our ponds to have a reproducing shiner species that is NOT a Golden Shiner.

Bill (and others),

There are multiple species of shiners in the creeks and rivers near my farm. (And I am near the geographic center of the U.S.)

Would an experiment where I try to get them to spawn in 20 or 40 gallon aquariums be valuable?

Is it easier to get (creek) fish like that to spawn in an aquarium or a pond?

If I did get a species to spawn, is there a DNA database for many of the shiners, such that we could identify the EXACT species?


P.S. If that experiment is above the pay grade of an amateur (like me), do any of our fish raisers want to try?

Only a limited number of creek minnow and shiner species will spawn in a pond. I worked with this for about 40 years
IMO it would be easier to get them to spawn in a pond compared to an aquarium, providing the aquarium was not mimicking stream conditions. One has to match the spawning condition requirements to the fish species. It is a whole easier to talk about spawning fish in an aquarium than actually doing it.

Numerous native fish can and have been spawned in an aquarium if it adequately mimics natural conditions for that species for spawning. If one wants the species to spawn in an aquarium, then IMO one would FIRST have to know the exact species and its requirements for spawning. Then imitate those conditions as it is done and reported on North American Native Fishes Association.

Adult fish species, but not usually hybrids, can be usually correctly identified to species by using the numerous taxonomic keys available for freshwater fishes of each region. Again easier said than accomplished. Taxonomic keys have their own language and jargon for specific body features.

Did a little checking on the Emerald Shiner on spawning needs. It sounds like a really good opportunity to get smashed by predators to me.

Reproductive strategy: Pelagophils (Simon 1999). Spawning occurs at night, as fish form large schools in the surface waters over a substratum of clean sand or hard mud. The shiners first appear about 1 to 2 feet below the surface milling and darting rapidly and erratically in a circular path. The smaller males appear to pursue larger females for a few seconds at a time. As these pairs swim about in a 10 to 20 foot circle, the male overtakes the females and presses closely on either the right or the left side in what appears to be an interlocking of pectoral fins. The pair gyrates briefly, and then slows down as female arches her side upward stops for an instant, rolling over further, eggs are released and fertilized at the instant of rolling (Flittner 1964).

I looked up the common shiner as well. Sounds like they need running water and like to deposit eggs in the creek chub beds. Probably not a good candidate for pond spawning unless you have a waterfall type application.

Fellow BP member DonoBBD if I recall has emerald shiners in a pond in Ontario, Canada (big province so not sure how far North or South he is compared to others here) But he did have large volume of waterfall water flowing into his pond all the time. He hasn't posted in quite some time so may not be around anymore but his setup may allow for the possibility of successful reproduction. There probably are other factors related to water quality, chemistry, soil or rock substrate and water temperature that need to be considered as well.

There is way more that we have to learn yet. Fellow PB member from Michigan has high density of SMB and closely packed spawning beds with very successful growth of the progeny. What unique air, soil, water quality, or chemistry factor makes the SMB in his ponds forget their 'evolution' and start behaving like they think they are bluegill?

it is a privilege that we have ponds to observe and freedom to think outside of the box and actually do our own testing without too much regulation or supervision. If you have access FishinRod to various shiner species and have test tanks or ponds what is the harm to try to set up some experiments? All you can do is learn what doesn't work or if something does work, try to repeat your success in a larger trial and share the results with others.

Speaking of diversity in shiners and other species, I found an old post from DonoBBD. He has pictures of some type of chub which he calls a 'creek chub' which reproduces in his pond and has taken to pellets. He indicates in this post his emerald shiners DO reproduce in his pond and he has other shiners reproducing as well.

In other posts he shows pictures of his healthy YP populations and also his rainbows.

He hasn't been by the forum much looking at his past posts but has a great pond setup with unique things happening. Hopefully he stops by again.

See pictures and info here:

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=40132&Number=521920#Post521920

Canyon - DonoBBD and I communicated a lot. He created special stream-like current conditions in his pond to get those shiners to reproduce. It was a unique situation and not just some regular pond were he stocked emeralds and common shiner and they reproduced.

Yes, I was aware he created a moving water situation to get this to happen. Did he do something unique to the soil or substrate in the area of the moving water as well? Perhaps his water quality and temperature also played a role in his success. Either way, if he could simulate conditions that allowed spawning I would think others could do it and that also would possibly include doing it on a smaller scale, perhaps even indoors.

Bill,

Thanks for the write up about my proposed experiment. I should have been more explicit - I wanted to test for creek shiners that might spawn in an aquarium environment that was set up to mimic POND conditions.

If you studied it for 40 years and there is not a body of literature that says these "creek" shiners can ALSO spawn in ponds, then that experiment is almost certainly above my pay grade (as I expected).

Further, these are the shiners in my creek:

Arkansas River Shiner
Emerald Shiner
Red Shiner
River Shiner
Sand Shiner

Except for the reds, the others look VERY similar!

My highest groundwater pond is currently dry due to the drought. The next time it gets a few feet of water, I might throw in some shiners and some of the other types of creek minnows and see if I can get any to spawn. That pond is too ephemeral for any higher value usage.

Fishin Rod - Those are all typical stream spawning species non pond spawning / egg hatch except the Red Shiner. There is a good reason why they are not found as abundant in ponds. They require the unique stream conditions for successful egg laying and hatching. I would try adding all of them into the ground water pond and report your results.

The red shiner has a unique spawning habit in that it belongs to a group of shiners that are crevice spawners same as Spotfin, Steelcolor and Satinfin shiners. Current helps and it is helpful however it is not necessary for good egg hatches. The lower the suspended silt, IMO the more success that will occur. The main thing is to provide crevices with the proper spacing of 1/8"-3/16" between plates for egg deposition. I often use CDs stacked on a eye bolt. Snipe reported here to good egg hatches in a pond using the Red Shiner.

I was out at the pond today. Had some strong winds (40ish mph) rolling through the last couple of days out of the South. Just general checks and hand feeding the BG as the wind is blowing right at the discharge of the feeder. Had a small bucket and a plastic cup and made my way around the to the South dam and started to sprinkle the food in the water.

It didn't take long before the minnows showed up, followed by some of the BG and before long as the wind drifted the food to the North across the pond there was a full blown feeding frenzy in the works at the vertical habitat and over the top of the rock ledges.

Ambient temps at 82 degrees, wind from the S/SW gusting to 50. Water temps in the lower 60's. I did see one of the 4-6" TP death spiraling in the SW corner of the pond. Wondering if there is some water mixing in the works with the wind or lower overnight temps causing the TP to start to fail.

Hoping the LMB get their fill of TP pushing one last growth spurt for the year.

Looking like 9-1/2" of rain scheduled in the next 10days. I'd be happy if we got at least half of that. Be nice to see the pond at full pool again.

Sounds like all is well Boon, hopefully you get the rain you need.

We're supposed to get some as well.

Weatherman is saying, 8.??" of rain this weekend for Clinton Okla. , oh, I hope so. No runoff from my 40 acre watershed since July of 2023 , 16 months. Last spring/early summer not a genuine Thunderstorm. My big pond is 7' down from full pool. Hope everyone gets whatever it takes to see full pool in your ponds and lakes. God bless , each and every one.

I saw 6" for the OKC area this morning.

First rain band this morning associated with the cold front, split and went right around our farm.

Rain band #2 is approaching soon - looks a little more solid.

I feel what you are saying Rod, it split my farm today as well. I'm very hopeful we will all get some of it.

Looking at my records, the most rain we've received here in 20 years was in Oct. 2018, with 7.5 inches. That was a record year with 51.45 inches for the year. Our average is just over 30 inches per year. Our average for October is 2.11 and we are at Zero for the month currently so anything will be an improvement.

10 day forecast was 5.62 inches over the next 10 days, that would fill the pond if it came right.

Storms , as far as rain, blew up about 15 miles east of our Ponds. 1 drop in rain gauge. Weatherman went from 8" to 6" , and on 10pm news/weather tonight , 2" for our area this weekend. Hoping he's way low on estimate. Working at farm this evening, watched the lightning all evening to our East.