I would agree that they do look very similar to the larger ones minus the “red ear” but they are for sure not the same ones that I stocked unless those shrunk. There seems to be a lot of them as well. That trap was out for 4 min and caught those 3 and 2 fatheads. There were plenty of other minnows swimming around the trap but I couldn’t tell what they were
Do the pictured fish have a long slender pectoral fin like the one at the bottom of this post? Look at the pectoral fin on the fish's side near gill (see fish below). If it is long and pointed and goes back to the middle of the dorsal fin it is at least part RES. BG pectoral fins are shorter and more rounded.
Yes they do have that long pectoral fin on them so that is good news. I’m just trying to figure out how there is so many of them
Bill/cody you also mentioned they looked stunted- I don’t know if it makes a diff that they are only 1-1.5” vs 2-3” that you thought.. If so what can I do to to help that? Feed more pellets? I had been trying to hand feed but nothing was taking the pellets so I kind of stopped. I did soak some last week and threw a couple handfuls out and it looked like the minnows were nibbling but didn’t look like anything very big. I don’t have a dock built yet so I’m throwing from shore as far as I can into deeper water in hopes for res or yp to eat but I know they are more bottom feeders.
Down here RES in their 2nd Summer can spawn. How old would Michigan RES be at 3 to 4"? Possibly in their 2nd or 3rd Summer? So it looks like an RES spawn may have happened. There are so many, that the growth is slow for that cohort. I wouldn't think that would be a problem for SMB that are big enough to eat them. As the SMB thin them, their condition should improve and they should grow and still be food for the growing SMB. Maybe all this is good? Unless you do have BG and lets hope that didn't happen.
Its been a while but if IIRC, I once read a report by Michigan's DOW on RES. Seems like their recipe for producing fingerlings was only 5 or 6 pairs to the acre and the production was in the neighborhood of ... wait ... let me find it. Here is exactly what they report on producing fingerlings.
Quote
From 4 to 6 pairs of adults per surface acre of rearing pond has produced similar fingerling harvests as twice as many adults, therefore the lower density has been preferred. A rather high broodstock mortality rate has occurred in some cases, so fish handling has been kept to a minimum. Harvest of fingerlings has occurred in September through November at harvest rates of about 25,000 to 30,000 fingerlings per acre; however, annual production has been variable. Depending on the growing season and contamination of ponds by other fish species, the harvested redear sunfish fingerlings have ranged in size from 1.0 to 2.5 inches in total length.
Hopefully you don't have BG and if not it looks good for the predators when you add them?
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Thanks ewest and jps. Maybe they are just res spawn. I thought they looked similar was just shocked at the shear numbers of them. The plan was to get some 4-6” sm this fall from Ron christma. Would they be large enough to eat those now or should I be looking for bigger fish? My originals stockers of yp and res are all 5” plus. I didn’t want anything big enough to eat those yet but think I’ll want something to keep this hatch in check. Again thank you everyone for helping us newbies out!
I think it is important to get the stocking size and number correct for the SMB. I am just not the one to make the recommendation. But if you get the size right, the outcome will be best. Ron Crimson should be able to make a rec for that. Also Bill Cody would be able to make a recommendation. Whatever is recommended, please share with us if it isn't posted in this thread.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
IMO you are not going to get "real" good predation or thinning of the 1.5"-2" RES using SMB even when SMB are 10" long. Just my opinion. IMO I don't think SMB are nearly as aggressive sunfish predator compared to LMB. Smallies do eat sunfish but I think and I know that they are not a main item in their diet when other types of foods are available. Now if your panfish were YP then yes SMB would be VERY good at thinning 1"-2", 3"-4" YP or other easy to catch and swallow foods. If you were a fish and had to quickly swallow your food whole, what would you rather eat a hot dog or something shaped like a can lid?
Of coarse this all depends on the size of the smallies. For your case I hope I am wrong.
Depending on your end goals for the fishery these will determine how many and what size SMB that you stock. However --- you are probably going to be size limited as to what size of smallies you can even buy. Few if any are larger than 8" and most will be 2"-4" and some Ron (as noted above) now has are 5"-7" and maybe a very limited number around 8". A month ago all Ron's SMB were spoken for and no 2024 year class would be available. A few things changed with his buyer so now Ron does have some limited numbers of YOY smallies this fall. YOu better put your order in quickly.
Obviously the larger the smallies at stocking the larger fish or foods that they will eat. The fewer the smallies you stock the faster they will grow toward big sizes. And the more smallies you stock, the more fish that will be eaten and the less their average sizes will be or eventually become. For optimum growth until they die, it is very important the fish are eating and growing the best they are able to grow each day. Less predation pressure vs more predation pressure influence number to stock. Then again how predatory are SMB on small RES vs SMB eating preference for FHM that are also quite abundant in the pond?? I recall you are feeding fish pellets. Remember Ron's smallies are pellet trained and some may trend toward eating welfare pellets because it is EASY food,,, no chasing needed. IMO predators are basically lazy wanting to fill their belly the quickest with the least amount of effort - aka Optimal Foraging Theory.
Again however, I think the smallies will trend to eat more FHM this fall compared to small RES. Thus the current YOY RES will continue to grow and need to be thinned with angling, traps, and some periodic seining. RES do enter traps well similar to BG especially when using the Z trap versions.
Goals - If you want eventually larger SMB then initially stock fewer SMB. If you want more predation of small fish effects then stock higher numbers of SMB/ac.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/27/2411:02 AM. Reason: Improvements
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Good news is RES are not known to overpopulate and stunt. Adult YP will feed on small BG and RES as it gets cooler.
Cody Note - The bad news is RES do not make very many youngsters for a decent contribution to the forage fish base. IMO RES are used mainly for snail control and reducing the numbers of snails that contribute to the life cycle of numerous fish parasites. I would never use RES as a good forage fish specie. Lots of pond owners that stock RES very rarely if ever see them unless the RES happened to be pellet trained.
RES IMO tend to be more of a deeper water fish and this feature makes them more or very vulnerable to predation compared to BG that frequent the shallows and more near shore areas with denser cover as better refuge and protection from predation. Thus the life style habit of RES is not conducive to long term survival of the YOY that generally have low density due to spawning habits of RES. .
Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/30/2408:51 PM. Reason: added note about RES
Ron said he should have more smb ready later this week or early next. I plan to get 20-25 of them. I’m not sure exactly what size but was expecting 4-6” range.
Just a quick question. Would it be harmful if Josh might acquire 3 or 4 larger SMB from a local lake for predation on the RES little ones? Maybe say 3 to 4 12"-15" SMB just to get a head start. Would his 4 to 6" SMB be threatened by the presence of 3 or 4 larger SMB?
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
I thought about that Jpsdad. Would smb from the river adapt to a pond? That is the best place near me to catch some. I have read on here that those can be hard to adapt them from moving water
Good idea jpsdad. I think if Josh can get a few stream SMB, I would try it. Worst case would be they lose weight and develop a low RW. However SMB are predators and stream living SMB normally have the very common everywhere green sunfish habit or maybe some other sunfish specie as prey items present in their stream so IMO stream smallies would eat appropriate sized RES when small RES are abundant . My adult SMB love eating GSF that has the general body shape of RES. Try moving some adult smallies and measure length of each and then try to monitor their relative growth rate either by visual observation or the occasional angler catches. If you move some larger smallies you should be able to easily tell original stream SMB from fish farm SMB due to noticeable size difference. There is some risk of the adult SMB eating a few of the fish farm small size smallies.
Please keep us in the information loop as the pond progresses year after year. WE like learning more about SMB. One good way to monitor relative numbers is to record how many and the sizes of RES that you are catching in traps and or are finding from seine beach area samples. Buy or build yourself one or two Z traps. They work well. See Z trap videos on YouTube.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/04/2407:53 PM. Reason: added bit of info
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
I’ve also considered putting one lmb in this fall. Not sure how much of a difference 1 would make but I’m not confident enough to sex them and would prefer to have a smb pond over lmb.
If SMB is your target fish, I would not introduce LMB of any sex.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
LMB can cross with SMB and you probably don't want that. If you conclude that you need more predation, I would add a few adult YP. Adult YP should be easier to find than large SMB.
I’ve also considered putting one lmb in this fall. Not sure how much of a difference 1 would make but I’m not confident enough to sex them and would prefer to have a smb pond over lmb.
Off the top of my head I don't know, but is stocking Hybrid Striped Bass not an option? Saugeye would be the best fish to stock to control panfish in a SMP top end predator pond but sourcing them may be tough. I should have some in a few weeks. "should" being the key word here.....
I read about smb/lmb crossing. Sounded fairly rare where most “meanmouths” were spotted bass/smb but it is possible. Esshup hbs are not legal to stock in MI as far as I can tell. I’m not sure on saugeye but would be very interested in stocking if you have some for sale and they are. I’ll have to do some looking into. I believe there are sauger in mi and for sure walleye so I would think saugeye would be ok?
Adding one LMB into a population of SMB is I think a doable thing HOWEVER I would do it as a last resort if it is discovered the SMB population is not effectively keeping the RES from becoming over crowded.
IMO the current concern of an over abundance of YOY RES is unnecessary because the RES parentage was from Arkansas and now living in winters of southern MI. It is very possible that the pond could lose 90% of the current number of RES after trying to endure the 2024-25 MI winter. More on this later.
For RES that survive overcrowding will be evidenced by their average slow grow rates of each year class. IMO this likely will not occur because of the limited fecundity of RES as they have basically one spawn per year especially northern regions. Carlander’ Fishery Biology says Average fecundity of RES is 16K to 25K for average mature females. Whereas fecundity of BG ranges from 33K to 73K per female. Generally fewer eggs laid to me means less egg hatch resulting fewer fry survival each year.
It is very possible that a lot of the YOY RES will not survive during the Odessa MI winter conditions. Evaluating the RES numbers and recording all the catch results from numerous Z-trap sets in Fall and then doing the same number of traps sets again in Spring will provide a good estimate of the year class and how well the RES overall will survive in a Michigan pond.
IMO I think the YOY RES will not survive the MI winter very well as their parentage gene pool and history was adapted to the mild winter of probably Arkansas. Plus RES are well adapted to eating small mollusks as a major food item although they will also survive and eat insect larvae. With a large YOY crop of the RES main food of snails are likely sparse due to their high number and their over harvesting the pond’s main RES snail food reserve. Winter is the hardest season for fish survival. Thus lots of YOY, especially if not in good body condition with adequate fat reserves, will have to endure a colder winter than their genetic make-up is adapted to enduring. Thus I expect a majority of the YOY and some of the mature RES going into winter will die during the normal conditions of southern MI winters. Even in northern and central Ohio numerous RES are stocked and we get most all RES are never to be seen again after enduring winter’s snow and ice cover conditions.
If the RES each Spring are very abundant (doubtful) as evidenced by trap sets then I would buy a long beach seine to remove what you think are excess RES. IMO and experience the fewer of one specie that is present the better they grow and the larger the size they become. Allow yor SMB to accomplish one spawn and produce a crop of new YOY smallies to prey on RES fry. If excess RES persist after the 3nd or 4rd year, then I would consider adding more SMB or one LMB 10”-12” long as a helper tool to remove more RES per year than the SMB are eating.
Comments have expressed a hybridization concern of adding one LMB into a pond with just SMB predators. Hybrid LMbass have been reported, however reports indicate this mainly happens as a cross of LMB with spotted bass. Very, very rarely have their been reports of a hybrid LMB X SMB occurring. The hybrid LMB bass have been called “mean mouth bass”. I have looked into this and IMO the hybrid bass has been over exaggerated and as I noted it most commonly occurs with LMB X Spots. If the “mean mouth” was a real doable thing some adventurous fish farm would be naturally hybridizing and producing these 'mean mouth' hybrids by crossing SMB with LMB. None exist and it is not done by fish growers I think for a very good reason. See next.
Let’s look at this from a perspective of biological and behavioral processes for the spawning of LMB and SMB. As you will see there are unique spawning behaviors that LMB and SMB use to recognize and utilize the same specie as a spawning partner. These behaviors are strongly engrained into each of the spawning species behavior. These specialized behaviors are different for very good evolutionary reasons for the keeping the specie reproductively isolated. IMO the chances are very slim or none for one LMB getting a SMB to naturally spawn with it. Thus IMO there is almost no chance that Josh will see any hybrid mean mouth bass in his pond. If Josh can produce any ‘mean mouth bass’, these will be highly valuable as an extremely rare fish to use for barter, sharing or exchange. I would pay high dollar for some of them. Note -- there may be no need for adding a LMB to his pond because IMO the RES survival of YOY will be minimal after each MI winter.
Pay attention of individual unique different spawning behaviors for each of the fishes of the pair of LMB and the SMB. Spawning behaviors of lots of animals especially birds are uniquely different that help dramatically to keep then as separate breeding species. Other wise mass hybridization would be commonplace.
LMB spawn at 59F-75F with mostly actual egg laying at 62-65F. Males leave the nest to search for ripe females. Male attracts females to the nest using courtship displays and rapid changes of body color patterns. LMB Males use nudging, nipping, and parallel swimming. Then the male positions vertical and female 45deg. One detailed study found that LMB spawning usually happens around dusk. The LMB Male circled the female & bit her flank as she moved away. Then the female returned to the nest and turned with her head slanted & pointed downward and appeared to float in this position appearing motionless and half dead. Male LMB also assumed this position. Then both laid on the bottom side by side with tails parallel. Then one turned partly on its side as eggs were laid and fertilized. Shortly both moved out a short distance as the female stayed in the head down in the floating position fashion. For 30 minutes the two repeat the lying on the bottom with female in head down floating position and then with both lying close together on the bottom as movements are repeated as noted above as more eggs were laid and fertilized.
SMB egg deposition most often at 61-65F. Spawn behavior: Fishes of WI indicate that SMB will generally spawn a little sooner when both SMB & LMB are present. Thus there is often a temperature spawning difference and preference between these two species. Behaviors - As SMB female moves into nest the male turns on his side with dorsal spines fully distended toward her, male and female go through considerable pre-spawn activity of display rubbing & nipping. Eventually they rest side by side on the bottom very close to touching bottom with the male vertical and female tilts 45deg as male remains upright w/ head just back of her pectoral fin or opposite of it. When Female is “ready” for egg drop she has a marked color change as dark mottling becomes prominent while the background color fades as she also displays peculiar fin movements when eggs are released.
Spotted bass spawn behavior appears to be less complex compared to LMB & SMB. Spotted males actively court a receptive female by circling and guiding her around in the nest while biting at her gill cover and vent. This encourages her egg drop as the male releases milt to fertilize the eggs. This less complex spawning behavior of Spotted bass maybe suggests why the hybrid Spotted bass (aka as ‘mean mouth bass) are much more common in nature compared to LMB X SMB.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/04/2408:07 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
I read about smb/lmb crossing. Sounded fairly rare where most “meanmouths” were spotted bass/smb but it is possible. Esshup hbs are not legal to stock in MI as far as I can tell. I’m not sure on saugeye but would be very interested in stocking if you have some for sale and they are. I’ll have to do some looking into. I believe there are sauger in mi and for sure walleye so I would think saugeye would be ok?
Hi there, Josh. As a fellow Michigander, I have been following along with your posts.
I haven't seen anything official that says HSB are prohibited in Michigan. The only relevant specie to pondmeisters that is on the prohibited list is the grass carp. I assume this mean the white amur.
Bill that is a very good point that I hadn’t even thought of. When I stocked the res I wasn’t sure if they would make it thru winter but wanted to give it a shot. The people at Stoney creek said they have clients around them that had good success and they are further north than I am. I am a bit skeptical from what I’ve read on here about them overwintering and realize they are in the business of selling fish so who knows. I hadn’t even given that a thought. I was just concerned when I was trapping that many that quick. Like you said there is a good chance many don’t make it so the worry could be all for nothing.
Bill, I agree with your thoughts on winter survival. The pond being in Michigan especially so because of the long period where new forage for the RES will be lacking.
I would like to add that I would expect a lot of winter loss of that size of any lepomis when numbering as high as they do in Josh's pond. I would expect that even here in Texas. Especially considering the condition noted (They don't hae a lot of reserve energy to withstand the winter famine). An interesting thought however is whether and how much of these overabundant RES might be food for other pond fish this winter. So possibly there is a decent standing weight of RES (maybe 20 to 30 lbs) presently that could sustain and support modest gain of predators that can consume them at their current size. So if 4"-6" SMB could benefit from this resource then nothing would need to be done to put the resource to work. One reason I suggested the 3 or 4 12"-15" SMB was because I though they could benefit and possibly make good growth over winter consuming the winter weakened RES. How much growth? I don't know but say 6 lbs of fish would definitely grow on a ration of 20 lbs of RES across the cool months. Of course, this does presume consumption as the predators would have to eat them to benefit.
So here is my question. Knowing the RES population will be greatly reduced by spring due to winter conditions would adding 3 or 4 adult SMB be less of a good idea? Are there risks in your opinion that outweigh the potential benefit, if any?
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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