Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Tilapia with Winterkill

I have read a thousand long-winded replies on Pond Boss that basically boiled down to, "It depends."

I chuckled out loud to read a reply that was just the opposite!

Bill (and all others),

Except for "swimming" ponds, I think most people have reducing the FA with tilapia as a secondary objective after their primary fish management objective.

So, for example, if a person has a LMB/BG pond, and small BG eat lots of tilapia fry, then there really isn't anything the pond manager could do to help the tilapia fry survive to adulthood.

However, can you list some "supplemental fish" that you think should be excluded from a pond if you suspect the pond will have significant FA problems?

I am thinking about things like Golden Shiners, or Crappie that might really hoover up the tilapia fry, and therefore you should NOT include those species in your pond stocking plan if you think tilapia are going to be an important part of the pond's management tools.

Definitely not a pro here but I'll chime in with my thoughts on why we moved forward with Tilapia at our place. Right, wrong or indifferent they are in the pond now and we'll see how it plays out for the year. The good news is that there's nearly a 100% chance that the Tilapia will die this fall as our temps for this area will likely have some amount of ice on the pond taking the water temps below critical for the Tilapia we stocked. I was hoping for Blues but settled for a Nile/Moz cross (availability).

Pros

1. The Tilapia will graze the FA we started to see on the riprap around the pond and provide an unplanned additional forage base for YP and LMB as I wasn't planning to have Tilapia until 2025.
2. My understanding is that the Tilapia in many cases take some of the pressure off of the BG/RES populations due to their prolific breeding which, in a bass overcrowded scenario, allows the BG/RES to repopulate balancing the pond population.
3. I have read that Tilapia become sluggish at lower water temps and in one article the swim in circles like a fish in distress. Predators gorge themselves on these fish which can only lead to potential weight gains.

Larry Harley - Texas Tilapia

Cons

1. The Tilapia may eat some of the pond plants we are trying to get established thus slowing down some of our work. Hopeful that our 1/4" wire mesh will help to prevent this.
2. Some of the Tilapia will likely outgrow the gape of our predators (LMB, and YP).

For my personal situation I looked at the pond as Quazi bass overcrowded as the forage base is new. We are seeing small fry in the 1,000's between 1/4 -1/2" in multiple areas of the pond. Assuming the BG will spawn this year as we stocked 3-5" - Hopeful we see 2-3 spawns but that's in Mother Nature's hands. Stocking the Tilapia was hedging our bets to hopefully allow full establishment of the BG/RES/YP/Shiner population with some or more limited predation on them over the winter by the LMB.

Would be a complete bonus if the LMB were able to gorge on some of the Tilapia going into the winter.

To your question on forage fish (BG and Golden Shiners) eating some of the Tilapia. My guess is that they won't have an impact overall. Both of them have mouth gapes that are small enough that the Tilapia will outgrow it. YP may be able to put a dent in them but that would likely help the BG/RES populations to get established. LMB will likely be the biggest player here as they can take the biggest bite but if the stocking quantities are right.....there's a buffet for them at the end of the year as water temps drop.

Looking forward to some other comments. Hopefully I didn't shoot myself in the foot.

Thanks Boondoggle.

I think watching the development of your pond will be a good test case. Your are roughly in the middle of the "use tilapia for a single year" zone.

I hope you and your family get great enjoyment from your pond this year!

Our typical Tilapia stocking is for FA control, not forage.

SRAC 0283: Tilapia: Life History and Biology
https://srac.tamu.edu/fact-sheets/serve/53

Reproduction In all Oreochromis species the male excavates a nest in the pond bottom (generally in water shallower than 3 feet) and mates with several females. After a short mating ritual the female spawns in the nest (about two to four eggs per gram of brood female), the male fertilizes the eggs, and she then holds and incubates the eggs in her mouth (buccal cavity) until they hatch. Fry remain in the females mouth through yolk sac absorption and often seek refuge in her mouth for several days after they begin to feed.
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Tilapia have a higher early survival rate than LMB, BG etc. because of above parental reproductive method.

Tilapia post from 2013

Rod,

I stand corrected and there was some really good info in this post from some of the more experienced guys here on the forum not to mention Mr Lusk chiming in too.

Wasn't trying to lead anybody off the right track and wanted to make sure I provided the right info...some of this has been talked through before...

Enjoy the read, hope it helps with your questions.

Boondoggle,

Thanks for posting that link into this thread! That is a good one.

I read that one a long time ago. I am pretty sure it was in the back of my brain somewhere when I was asking questions about helping the tilapia fry reach maturity.

I think that is an important step for increasing the forage value of tilapia to the other fish in the pond AND for increasing the ability of the tilapia to combat FA.

I know that process is very difficult to study and quantify. Just wanted to see how much our knowledge base has advanced in the last few years.

I've been watching the fish a little, reading the threads and searching the internet for a little info on Tilapia. Curious if the fans of these little fish have any opinions they can share. My question is on evasion from predation from LMB. I've seen posts about LMB teaming up on these guys only to fail on attempts to capture and TP sidestepping the attack from LMB. Other posts indicate that some of the benefits include additional forage to the pond/lake that helps to save the BG for later in the year after the TP have cycled out due to low water temps.

Are BG easier for the LMB to capture in warm water and then the tables turn as the water cools off in the fall? Any experience or opinions here?

I would be hesitant to say BG are easier than TP in warm water. Could be, however. Perhaps a good test of that would be where TP and BG prey of nearly identical weights are available for consumption to an appropriate sized LMB. If we can agree that the LMB will target the prey that requires the least investment of energy ... AND ... if one of the two species is much less resistant to predation then the weaker prey species will be eliminated whilst many of the other prey species still remain.

Another take on this would be to do each species separately and determine the time it takes to consume them all. The easier prey species should be eliminated in a shorter period of time.

Good question. I will check. A WAG in same sized BG and Tilapia the tilapia would be easier to eat. BG have less of a fusion form and have erect spines requiring a larger gap on the predator.

We often talk about the preferred SIZE of forage and SHAPE of forage for the predators to consume.

Does anybody know if fish "escape speed" or "pond habits" make a significant difference?

FHM are typically referred to as slow-swimming minnows, and we know that they are typically eliminated from a pond once the predator density is high enough.

I have seen many videos of BG slowly cruising around brush piles. If a bass was able to hide in the cover, it appears the BG would be an easy ambush meal.

Shad like to hang out in the open water in the middle of a pond. No cover for them to hide, but if they are fast swimmers, there is also no way for predators to approach unseen.

I assume the "escape speed" of tilapia goes down significantly when they start to get lethargic due to cold water.

Do "sleep" modes vary among or common pond forage species. Even I can catch a greyhound when it is snoozing in its dog bed!

Just throwing out more questions for discussion. I have no idea if it matters in the real world, or it is already basically accounted for in our "rules of thumb" for stocking forage.

P.S. I was just thinking about fish vision in the discussion above.

While predators certainly have a preferred size of forage, how good are they at measuring?

If I see four BG on video swimming in the same direction, I can easily pick out the largest BG and the smallest BG. (If there is much size differentiation.)

However, how does a bass measure the size of a solitary BG? A 2" BG that is two feet away would look awfully similar to me compared to a 4" BG that is four feet away. Especially in lower light conditions when bass like to hunt.

I would guess bass were pretty opportunistic and would take a BG over a large size variance if that BG wandered into the parameters of a "highly successful hunt" for the bass.

Further, it is difficult to gauge the RW of a BG when viewed only in the profile aspect. Likewise, if you only view a BG from straight in front, it is difficult to accurately assess its length.

Good thing bass are MUCH smarter than I am at catching BG!

Seems to be a bit of different behavior between the fish if I am observing them corrently.

BG at my place seem to relate more to habitat we have placed.

TP at my place seem to continuously move in a pack of 50-100 like sized buddies. Have multiple packs of the TP that range in size from 1-4" Pretty evident that there are larger packs out there too in the 4-6" range. Our largest sized TP seem to be in a pod of 2-6 (guessing these are mating males/females).

Not uncommon to see the LMB to crash the shoreline in attempts to capture the roaving horde of TP..

The thing I think I am seeing is that the BG numbers are down (easier to catch?) and the TP numbers are the same (harder to catch?) and then the tables start to turn when the water cools off as the TP get slower or struggle?

I like your report that the BG and TP have two different modes of living in your pond.

Bass in a good hiding place oriented near cover have BG to eat.

Bass that like to bull rush a school of fish have TP to eat.

All of the bass go home happy at the end of the day!

I like all the thoughts presented but I keep returning to Eric's wise words, "same sized BG and Tilapia". This qualifier is essential to the comparison because size is the most important variable for either species with respect to their own resistance to predation. Size, by and large, is more important than species. Larger prey are more resistant to predation than smaller ones. It would be acceptable to ignore species and consider only size when projecting susceptibility to predation. Size has a lot to do with concepts like relative speed for example. There is a lot out there on the subject of the size of prey.

Yep, grocery size matters. A large bass or cat would lose weight trying to catch and eat minnows. They need prey that is 1/4 to 1/3 their size. That’s why we concentrate on feeding bluegills. And those prey fish need to be fed enough of the right groceries to meet the needs of the predators.

Well, I'm at a loss. Fish are in the 9"+ to 10"+ range. That would put the forage need between 2.25 - 3".

The water inlet and outlet are nearly the same on numbers of fish present and the section that is between them is the West bank where we feed from.

Water Inlet

I see packs of these guys in the inlet, along the west bank, and in the emergency overflow area(s). Looks like the right size to me.



I'll keep working on it. Thanks for the replies and thoughts.

The answer may be in what you are not seeing. For example, if the LMB are currently lower RW than 30 days ago, what was present then that isn't now? What were they eating, proportionate size wise, that helped them be RW 150s, that isn't available now because they were eaten. One possibility on your BG question may lie in which forage grows faster. For example, if BG grow slower (not saying they do), wouldn't they be more vulnerable to predation? Predation may be the culprit for seeing fewer of them as you suspected above. There are lots of ways to look at things like this but it is always good to flip the coin and examine the other side. In the end, LMB eat what they can and all they can. Its probably a matter of can at the moment. When the TP begin declining due to colder water. This will redefine what can be eaten on the TP side of things. Should be a buffet going on if they stay pretty much the length they are now.

I have ask this before, How much confidence can you put in RW anyway ? It's just a suggestion, Is any RW chart for a LMB under 10" really skewed in the lower weight direction ?
Are there other outlying factors in fish growth in this particular pond ? Newish pond, lower nutrient load ?
Is a 10" - .61# LMB really is a great size with great growth (YES)
What is better for a 12 month old LMB ? 12" - 1.30# ( 144%) or 13.5" - 1.53# ( 117%) , You have all shapes and sizes
Is the forage really there, you just can't see it ? When i eradicated my pond we thought there were very few fish in it, There happened to be over 4000# of fish
I totally disagree with "a LMB will eat what they can and all they can" Every day I observe my LMB and my BG swimming together. The LMB sit there and look at the forage and don't mess with it.
Is there some sort of transition that goes on at 6 months (10") where the fish gains length more than weight ?
I'm only typing this because I am seeing the same REAL WORLD results that Boon is. LMB and SMB had stupid big RW numbers up to a certain size then that number went way down when they hit a certain age and length. Maybe the sample size isn't large enough. Boon is doing a great job and I have learned a lot from his venture

I agree 100% with this.

Just a thought. Lots of good questions. May be able to answer some questions - in a vacuum. Problem is we don't live in a vacuum. Often, we just have to say we really don't know the answers in a particular situation due to the many factors at work. Some of lake management is science, some is experience with a particular water and some is art.