Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking Unwanted bluegill in SMB, yp pond

I have a post going in another thread but thought I’d start a new one here to see if I get anymore advice. have 0.4 acre pond dug last fall stocked with fhm. This spring I put in 100 perch 3-8”) and 50 res(3-4”). I put out a minnow trap last week in 3 different spots for no more than 10min in each location and caught 7what I believe to be standard bg. My plan was to have a yp, res, smb pond. Would it be wise to bite the bullet and start over now since it is unlikely SMB will keep up with the bg? How many years will I get before I have too many stunted bg and need to add lmb or start over then? My goals are to have a pond for the kids to swim in and do a little fishing. I’m not looking for trophy class sizes and would like to have enough to harvest for dinner a few times a year. Here is the pic of what is believed to be a bg. It may be a res I’m just thinking with the amount I caught in short period of time that it is unlikely the res spawned that much?

Looks like a BG to me.

In 0.4 acre, you might be able to control BG numbers through angling. I have a 0.5 acre SMB/YP/CC/RES/BGxRES pond and remove a few hundred BGxRES by fishing every year to keep their numbers reasonable. (1-2 hours every other week during the warm months.) Since I feed regularly (about 5 days a week), about a third of the BGxRES are eating size. The pond record is a 13 1/4" 2 1/2 pounder. YP are doing well, the CC are eating small fish and pellets and then getting turned into blackened catfish (yum), and I caught a 20" SMB last week. I am happy with the situation.

How much fishing do you want to do? How much would you be willing to spend to reset the pond? Can you be sure no more BG will get into it in the future?

I have a similar pond here in Missouri. Only my HBG mess was self inflicted. Unfortunately the HBG I stocked, have reproduced, or crossed with the RES. I keep traps set all the time for raccoons and possums to help our turkeys. I find the HBG are great for baiting the traps. As an added aggravation, they continue to nip at swimmers.
I did add golden shiners when I stocked the SMB. My golden shiners have continued to hang in there. The FHM disappeared very quickly. The SMB and YP made short work of them. The pond was actually loaded with them, as I stocked them alone a full year before I stocked anything else. My SMB have done well. Reproduced to a limited degree, but they cannot control the HBG/RES cross offspring. We have added YP a few times, as we enjoy eating them as much as we like catching them. I don’t think I would start over. Just catch and destroy all the BG that you can. If you haven’t added golden shiners, you might want to consider them.
Biggest SMB we’ve caught so far. My lovely wife has the pond record.

Sweet smallie, SetterGuy!!!

Agree with Theo. I have an acre pond in Nebraska with smallies, yellow perch, wiper, redears, golden shiners and hybrid bluegill. In the process of removing walleye as they're the only species not really looking healthy when caught. And bluegill somehow managed to get in at some point. We've only caught 2 in the last 2 years, so not overly worried about it. Just fish it regularly and remove all you catch. And trapping is good too.

That is a dandy smb setter! I don’t mind fishing them a few times a week I just know our summers get busy with sports and I don’t want fish nipping at swimmers as I would say that is our main use for the pond. I don’t know how much it cost to poison the pond but since I only have the yp and res in now I’d rather do it then after I get smb(they are not cheap!)

It's a good thought. Just try to figure out how those bluegill got in there in the first place, so you can prevent it from happening again.

Two "keepers" in one picture!

That fish in the picture has no evidence of any ear tab, so how can anyone say with confidence what specie it is. RES and BG look very much alike when they are small enough the ear tab is not even apparent yet. The fish also to me looks to be stunted and not growing well (food shortage &/or just runts) ) because of the enlarged eye. Eyes continue to grow when food is limited for body growth. I think that fish is one of the slow growers (1"-2") that you bought from Stoney Creek as RES this spring. If it turns out to be a BG then IMO their RES were contaminated with BG.

One thing that would help identify the specie is to get a good picture of the gill rakers. BG will have long rakers and RES have short rakers. Another character that I use to separate BG from RES is the pectoral fin is longer for the RES. However it requires a fair amount of experience and numerous comparisons to use this feature.

Curious about the stunted and large eye comment? Granted I stocked CNBG but all of them had large eyes like that and they are far from stunted

That lepomis is indeed stunted.

Bill I don’t remember any of the res being that small when I stocked from Stoney creek. Maybe they were and I’m just not realizing it. I was under the assumption that I had some bg or res spawn this spring and these are the offspring. Do you think that would be a possibility or is that to big to be this years? I’ll try to trap a few more and get some better pics. Here is a res my daughter caught last night. I think we caught 5 of them by rod/reel last night. Does this look stunted? I thought the ones we’ve caught have all looked pretty healthy

Here is the only other one I have a pic of. It’s the first one I had caught last week

The eyes are MUCH smaller wrt body size on the two RES you posted. I would say "Not stunted".

By comparison, the eye on the first fingerling you posted is much larger wrt body size = stunted.

I don't think the first fish is 100% BG. Check the gill rakers. Note that the bars on the side of the fish stop at the lateral line. That would be uncommon for a pure northern BG.

It sure seems like you did get some good redear, along with some amount of bluegill. I agree with others to just fish as many as you can out, along with maybe some other methods like traps and seines.

I've never tried this, but I wonder if you could use a cast need when feeding. I was under the assumption that redear tended to not be at the surface as much as regular bluegill. Of course, cast nets take practice, and I have no idea if the fish would get wise to it quick or not.

JoshMi You said The RES were 2-3” at stocking from Stoney creek fish farm in Grant,Mi. To me that fish in your first picture looked to be 2"-2.5" however there was no length gauge in the picture. Normally size class fish from a fish farm have a pretty wide variation of sizes esp those in the 2"-3" group. Those could have some 1.5" to 3.5".

ewest - do you have some pictures of the gill rakers for 3"-5" RES?

Bill the pic of the minnow bg/res is deceiving. I should have clarified- these are prob only 1” fish I’m trapping.. I’ll go out here in a few minutes and should be able to trap a couple more. Not sure I’ll be able to see much in the gills they are so small but what should I be looking for as far as the hill rakers are concerned

BG - There are 13-16 moderately long primary gill rakers on the 1st arch. See pic above.

Here are 3 more that I just trapped today along with a ruler for comparison. How big do bg typically need to be to pull off a spawn? Could these be this springs offspring? I’ll have to go back and open up the gills again.

Still looking for pic of RES gill rakers.

INSTITUTE FOR FISHERIES RESEARCH DIVISION OF' FISHERIES MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION COOPERATING WITH THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN GERALD P. COOPER PH.D. D1111:CTOII Report No. 1689 June 10, 1964 Fish Section Research and Development Education-Game Institute for Fisheries Res. K. G. Fukano Dingell-Johnson Region I - Fish Region II- Fish Rigg~J;f+0 J'=ij:\} ANNE:X ANN ARBOR. MICHIGAN INTRODUCTION OF EXOTIC FISH INTO MICHIGANV by K. G. Fukano, H. Gowing, M. J. Hansen, and L. N. Allison

Redear sunfish--Lepomis microlophus (Guinther) This is a southern fish that has occurred in Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio to some extent. It ranges southeastward to west Florida and south westward to the Rio Grande {Forbes and Richardson, 192,)). Lopinot (1961) states that the redear sunfish can now be found throughout most of Illinois. Gerking (1945) states that the original range of the redear sunfish in Indiana has been obscured by propagation and stocking by the state fish hatcheries since 1932. A1tho'..1gh this fish has been planted in both lakes and streams in Indiana, it has thrived only in the lakes. Trautman (1957) claims that the redear sunfish was not native to Ohio and that where it has been introduced J.orth of its original range,

The redear sunfish has three anal-fin spines and large scales (53 or fewer in lateral line); teeth are lacking on tongue; the pectoral fins are very long and pointed at tip; the gill-rakers are short, blunt, and often crooked; the opercle has a broad scarlet margin (Hubbs and Lagler, 194 7).

Ball (1952) moved redear sunfish to central Michigan where they apparently can withstand winter conditions and reproduce in ponds. They appear to be less prolific than bluegills, and have no-l: become overly abundant when stocked with largemouth bass.

Those 3 fish look like the RES you posted that was larger. look at the bars on the side which are like the RES you posted. The difference is the small ones have not developed the red ocular flap (ear tab) margin yet. I wonder if they are hybrids of RES and BG. Do the pictured fish have a long slender pectoral fin like the one at the bottom of this post?

They do have the long slender pectoral fin. As far as gill rakers all I can see is a white line I can’t really see any of the spikes or anything coming off, they are too small

When I put on my phone with the light in the back I could see little tiny spikes but too small to count(I don’t have a magnifying glass or I may have been able to) and there was no way to tell of if short and blunt or long and pointy. I guess I would say short as they were barely visible but short is a relative word without something to compare it to. (I think there’s a joke in there somewhere but I’m not going there)

I would agree that they do look very similar to the larger ones minus the “red ear” but they are for sure not the same ones that I stocked unless those shrunk. There seems to be a lot of them as well. That trap was out for 4 min and caught those 3 and 2 fatheads. There were plenty of other minnows swimming around the trap but I couldn’t tell what they were

Do the pictured fish have a long slender pectoral fin like the one at the bottom of this post? Look at the pectoral fin on the fish's side near gill (see fish below). If it is long and pointed and goes back to the middle of the dorsal fin it is at least part RES. BG pectoral fins are shorter and more rounded.

Yes they do have that long pectoral fin on them so that is good news. I’m just trying to figure out how there is so many of them

Bill/cody you also mentioned they looked stunted- I don’t know if it makes a diff that they are only 1-1.5” vs 2-3” that you thought.. If so what can I do to to help that? Feed more pellets? I had been trying to hand feed but nothing was taking the pellets so I kind of stopped. I did soak some last week and threw a couple handfuls out and it looked like the minnows were nibbling but didn’t look like anything very big. I don’t have a dock built yet so I’m throwing from shore as far as I can into deeper water in hopes for res or yp to eat but I know they are more bottom feeders.

Great "teaching" pic, ewest!

Down here RES in their 2nd Summer can spawn. How old would Michigan RES be at 3 to 4"? Possibly in their 2nd or 3rd Summer? So it looks like an RES spawn may have happened. There are so many, that the growth is slow for that cohort. I wouldn't think that would be a problem for SMB that are big enough to eat them. As the SMB thin them, their condition should improve and they should grow and still be food for the growing SMB. Maybe all this is good? Unless you do have BG and lets hope that didn't happen.

Its been a while but if IIRC, I once read a report by Michigan's DOW on RES. Seems like their recipe for producing fingerlings was only 5 or 6 pairs to the acre and the production was in the neighborhood of ... wait ... let me find it. Here is exactly what they report on producing fingerlings.


Hopefully you don't have BG and if not it looks good for the predators when you add them?

Thanks ewest and jps. Maybe they are just res spawn. I thought they looked similar was just shocked at the shear numbers of them. The plan was to get some 4-6” sm this fall from Ron christma. Would they be large enough to eat those now or should I be looking for bigger fish? My originals stockers of yp and res are all 5” plus. I didn’t want anything big enough to eat those yet but think I’ll want something to keep this hatch in check. Again thank you everyone for helping us newbies out!

Josh,

I think it is important to get the stocking size and number correct for the SMB. I am just not the one to make the recommendation. But if you get the size right, the outcome will be best. Ron Crimson should be able to make a rec for that. Also Bill Cody would be able to make a recommendation. Whatever is recommended, please share with us if it isn't posted in this thread.

IMO you are not going to get "real" good predation or thinning of the 1.5"-2" RES using SMB even when SMB are 10" long. Just my opinion. IMO I don't think SMB are nearly as aggressive sunfish predator compared to LMB. Smallies do eat sunfish but I think and I know that they are not a main item in their diet when other types of foods are available. Now if your panfish were YP then yes SMB would be VERY good at thinning 1"-2", 3"-4" YP or other easy to catch and swallow foods. If you were a fish and had to quickly swallow your food whole, what would you rather eat a hot dog or something shaped like a can lid?

Of coarse this all depends on the size of the smallies. For your case I hope I am wrong.

Depending on your end goals for the fishery these will determine how many and what size SMB that you stock. However --- you are probably going to be size limited as to what size of smallies you can even buy. Few if any are larger than 8" and most will be 2"-4" and some Ron (as noted above) now has are 5"-7" and maybe a very limited number around 8". A month ago all Ron's SMB were spoken for and no 2024 year class would be available. A few things changed with his buyer so now Ron does have some limited numbers of YOY smallies this fall. YOu better put your order in quickly.

Obviously the larger the smallies at stocking the larger fish or foods that they will eat. The fewer the smallies you stock the faster they will grow toward big sizes. And the more smallies you stock, the more fish that will be eaten and the less their average sizes will be or eventually become. For optimum growth until they die, it is very important the fish are eating and growing the best they are able to grow each day. Less predation pressure vs more predation pressure influence number to stock. Then again how predatory are SMB on small RES vs SMB eating preference for FHM that are also quite abundant in the pond?? I recall you are feeding fish pellets. Remember Ron's smallies are pellet trained and some may trend toward eating welfare pellets because it is EASY food,,, no chasing needed. IMO predators are basically lazy wanting to fill their belly the quickest with the least amount of effort - aka Optimal Foraging Theory.

Again however, I think the smallies will trend to eat more FHM this fall compared to small RES. Thus the current YOY RES will continue to grow and need to be thinned with angling, traps, and some periodic seining. RES do enter traps well similar to BG especially when using the Z trap versions.

Goals - If you want eventually larger SMB then initially stock fewer SMB. If you want more predation of small fish effects then stock higher numbers of SMB/ac.

Good news is RES are not known to overpopulate and stunt. Adult YP will feed on small BG and RES as it gets cooler.

Cody Note - The bad news is RES do not make very many youngsters for a decent contribution to the forage fish base. IMO RES are used mainly for snail control and reducing the numbers of snails that contribute to the life cycle of numerous fish parasites. I would never use RES as a good forage fish specie. Lots of pond owners that stock RES very rarely if ever see them unless the RES happened to be pellet trained.

RES IMO tend to be more of a deeper water fish and this feature makes them more or very vulnerable to predation compared to BG that frequent the shallows and more near shore areas with denser cover as better refuge and protection from predation. Thus the life style habit of RES is not conducive to long term survival of the YOY that generally have low density due to spawning habits of RES. .

Ron said he should have more smb ready later this week or early next. I plan to get 20-25 of them. I’m not sure exactly what size but was expecting 4-6” range.

A few SMB/RES + threads with Dave Willis thoughts included. I know Dave did a pond in SD with SMB, RES and FH.

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=1333&Number=14349#Post14349

Redear sunfish question - Pond Boss Forum
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=360169&page=1

Late Summer RES Spawn - multiple spawn? - Pond Boss Forum
Northern Red Ear survival - Pond Boss Forum
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=277040&page=1

smallmouth question - Pond Boss Forum
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=160753&page=1

Just a quick question. Would it be harmful if Josh might acquire 3 or 4 larger SMB from a local lake for predation on the RES little ones? Maybe say 3 to 4 12"-15" SMB just to get a head start. Would his 4 to 6" SMB be threatened by the presence of 3 or 4 larger SMB?

I thought about that Jpsdad. Would smb from the river adapt to a pond? That is the best place near me to catch some. I have read on here that those can be hard to adapt them from moving water

Good idea jpsdad. I think if Josh can get a few stream SMB, I would try it. Worst case would be they lose weight and develop a low RW. However SMB are predators and stream living SMB normally have the very common everywhere green sunfish habit or maybe some other sunfish specie as prey items present in their stream so IMO stream smallies would eat appropriate sized RES when small RES are abundant . My adult SMB love eating GSF that has the general body shape of RES.
Try moving some adult smallies and measure length of each and then try to monitor their relative growth rate either by visual observation or the occasional angler catches. If you move some larger smallies you should be able to easily tell original stream SMB from fish farm SMB due to noticeable size difference. There is some risk of the adult SMB eating a few of the fish farm small size smallies.

Please keep us in the information loop as the pond progresses year after year. WE like learning more about SMB. One good way to monitor relative numbers is to record how many and the sizes of RES that you are catching in traps and or are finding from seine beach area samples. Buy or build yourself one or two Z traps. They work well. See Z trap videos on YouTube.

I’ve also considered putting one lmb in this fall. Not sure how much of a difference 1 would make but I’m not confident enough to sex them and would prefer to have a smb pond over lmb.

If SMB is your target fish, I would not introduce LMB of any sex.

LMB can cross with SMB and you probably don't want that. If you conclude that you need more predation, I would add a few adult YP. Adult YP should be easier to find than large SMB.

Off the top of my head I don't know, but is stocking Hybrid Striped Bass not an option? Saugeye would be the best fish to stock to control panfish in a SMP top end predator pond but sourcing them may be tough. I should have some in a few weeks. "should" being the key word here.....

I read about smb/lmb crossing. Sounded fairly rare where most “meanmouths” were spotted bass/smb but it is possible. Esshup hbs are not legal to stock in MI as far as I can tell. I’m not sure on saugeye but would be very interested in stocking if you have some for sale and they are. I’ll have to do some looking into. I believe there are sauger in mi and for sure walleye so I would think saugeye would be ok?

Adding one LMB into a population of SMB is I think a doable thing HOWEVER I would do it as a last resort if it is discovered the SMB population is not effectively keeping the RES from becoming over crowded.

IMO the current concern of an over abundance of YOY RES is unnecessary because the RES parentage was from Arkansas and now living in winters of southern MI. It is very possible that the pond could lose 90% of the current number of RES after trying to endure the 2024-25 MI winter. More on this later.

For RES that survive overcrowding will be evidenced by their average slow grow rates of each year class. IMO this likely will not occur because of the limited fecundity of RES as they have basically one spawn per year especially northern regions. Carlander’ Fishery Biology says Average fecundity of RES is 16K to 25K for average mature females. Whereas fecundity of BG ranges from 33K to 73K per female. Generally fewer eggs laid to me means less egg hatch resulting fewer fry survival each year.

It is very possible that a lot of the YOY RES will not survive during the Odessa MI winter conditions. Evaluating the RES numbers and recording all the catch results from numerous Z-trap sets in Fall and then doing the same number of traps sets again in Spring will provide a good estimate of the year class and how well the RES overall will survive in a Michigan pond.

IMO I think the YOY RES will not survive the MI winter very well as their parentage gene pool and history was adapted to the mild winter of probably Arkansas. Plus RES are well adapted to eating small mollusks as a major food item although they will also survive and eat insect larvae. With a large YOY crop of the RES main food of snails are likely sparse due to their high number and their over harvesting the pond’s main RES snail food reserve. Winter is the hardest season for fish survival. Thus lots of YOY, especially if not in good body condition with adequate fat reserves, will have to endure a colder winter than their genetic make-up is adapted to enduring. Thus I expect a majority of the YOY and some of the mature RES going into winter will die during the normal conditions of southern MI winters. Even in northern and central Ohio numerous RES are stocked and we get most all RES are never to be seen again after enduring winter’s snow and ice cover conditions.

If the RES each Spring are very abundant (doubtful) as evidenced by trap sets then I would buy a long beach seine to remove what you think are excess RES. IMO and experience the fewer of one specie that is present the better they grow and the larger the size they become. Allow yor SMB to accomplish one spawn and produce a crop of new YOY smallies to prey on RES fry. If excess RES persist after the 3nd or 4rd year, then I would consider adding more SMB or one LMB 10”-12” long as a helper tool to remove more RES per year than the SMB are eating.

Comments have expressed a hybridization concern of adding one LMB into a pond with just SMB predators. Hybrid LMbass have been reported, however reports indicate this mainly happens as a cross of LMB with spotted bass. Very, very rarely have their been reports of a hybrid LMB X SMB occurring. The hybrid LMB bass have been called “mean mouth bass”. I have looked into this and IMO the hybrid bass has been over exaggerated and as I noted it most commonly occurs with LMB X Spots. If the “mean mouth” was a real doable thing some adventurous fish farm would be naturally hybridizing and producing these 'mean mouth' hybrids by crossing SMB with LMB. None exist and it is not done by fish growers I think for a very good reason. See next.

Let’s look at this from a perspective of biological and behavioral processes for the spawning of LMB and SMB. As you will see there are unique spawning behaviors that LMB and SMB use to recognize and utilize the same specie as a spawning partner. These behaviors are strongly engrained into each of the spawning species behavior. These specialized behaviors are different for very good evolutionary reasons for the keeping the specie reproductively isolated. IMO the chances are very slim or none for one LMB getting a SMB to naturally spawn with it. Thus IMO there is almost no chance that Josh will see any hybrid mean mouth bass in his pond. If Josh can produce any ‘mean mouth bass’, these will be highly valuable as an extremely rare fish to use for barter, sharing or exchange. I would pay high dollar for some of them. Note -- there may be no need for adding a LMB to his pond because IMO the RES survival of YOY will be minimal after each MI winter.

Pay attention of individual unique different spawning behaviors for each of the fishes of the pair of LMB and the SMB. Spawning behaviors of lots of animals especially birds are uniquely different that help dramatically to keep then as separate breeding species. Other wise mass hybridization would be commonplace.

LMB spawn at 59F-75F with mostly actual egg laying at 62-65F. Males leave the nest to search for ripe females. Male attracts females to the nest using courtship displays and rapid changes of body color patterns. LMB Males use nudging, nipping, and parallel swimming. Then the male positions vertical and female 45deg.
One detailed study found that LMB spawning usually happens around dusk. The LMB Male circled the female & bit her flank as she moved away. Then the female returned to the nest and turned with her head slanted & pointed downward and appeared to float in this position appearing motionless and half dead. Male LMB also assumed this position. Then both laid on the bottom side by side with tails parallel. Then one turned partly on its side as eggs were laid and fertilized. Shortly both moved out a short distance as the female stayed in the head down in the floating position fashion. For 30 minutes the two repeat the lying on the bottom with female in head down floating position and then with both lying close together on the bottom as movements are repeated as noted above as more eggs were laid and fertilized.

SMB egg deposition most often at 61-65F. Spawn behavior: Fishes of WI indicate that SMB will generally spawn a little sooner when both SMB & LMB are present. Thus there is often a temperature spawning difference and preference between these two species.
Behaviors - As SMB female moves into nest the male turns on his side with dorsal spines fully distended toward her, male and female go through considerable pre-spawn activity of display rubbing & nipping. Eventually they rest side by side on the bottom very close to touching bottom with the male vertical and female tilts 45deg as male remains upright w/ head just back of her pectoral fin or opposite of it. When Female is “ready” for egg drop she has a marked color change as dark mottling becomes prominent while the background color fades as she also displays peculiar fin movements when eggs are released.

Spotted bass spawn behavior appears to be less complex compared to LMB & SMB. Spotted males actively court a receptive female by circling and guiding her around in the nest while biting at her gill cover and vent. This encourages her egg drop as the male releases milt to fertilize the eggs. This less complex spawning behavior of Spotted bass maybe suggests why the hybrid Spotted bass (aka as ‘mean mouth bass) are much more common in nature compared to LMB X SMB.

Hi there, Josh. As a fellow Michigander, I have been following along with your posts.

I haven't seen anything official that says HSB are prohibited in Michigan. The only relevant specie to pondmeisters that is on the prohibited list is the grass carp. I assume this mean the white amur.

https://www.michigan.gov/invasives/id-report/prohibitedrestricted#:~:text=Michigan's%20Natural%20Resources%20Environmental%20Protection%20Act%20(Part%20413%20of%20Act

Do you have other info?

Bill,

Thanks for typing up all of that good info!

Never heard of Meanmouth. Learned a little something new today. Very informative.

Bill that is a very good point that I hadn’t even thought of. When I stocked the res I wasn’t sure if they would make it thru winter but wanted to give it a shot. The people at Stoney creek said they have clients around them that had good success and they are further north than I am. I am a bit skeptical from what I’ve read on here about them overwintering and realize they are in the business of selling fish so who knows. I hadn’t even given that a thought. I was just concerned when I was trapping that many that quick. Like you said there is a good chance many don’t make it so the worry could be all for nothing.

Bill, I agree with your thoughts on winter survival. The pond being in Michigan especially so because of the long period where new forage for the RES will be lacking.

I would like to add that I would expect a lot of winter loss of that size of any lepomis when numbering as high as they do in Josh's pond. I would expect that even here in Texas. Especially considering the condition noted (They don't hae a lot of reserve energy to withstand the winter famine). An interesting thought however is whether and how much of these overabundant RES might be food for other pond fish this winter. So possibly there is a decent standing weight of RES (maybe 20 to 30 lbs) presently that could sustain and support modest gain of predators that can consume them at their current size. So if 4"-6" SMB could benefit from this resource then nothing would need to be done to put the resource to work. One reason I suggested the 3 or 4 12"-15" SMB was because I though they could benefit and possibly make good growth over winter consuming the winter weakened RES. How much growth? I don't know but say 6 lbs of fish would definitely grow on a ration of 20 lbs of RES across the cool months. Of course, this does presume consumption as the predators would have to eat them to benefit.

So here is my question. Knowing the RES population will be greatly reduced by spring due to winter conditions would adding 3 or 4 adult SMB be less of a good idea? Are there risks in your opinion that outweigh the potential benefit, if any?

The communications I had with the DNR/DEQ in MI about HSB was that if your pond had no connection inbound or outbound to another water trail leading to another body of water then HSB are OK. They are not on the prohibited list. It doesn't make sense to me to have this gray area of fish that are not necessary mentioned as allowed or recommended and at the same time not prohibited either. Tilapia fall in that same category where it seems they want their official policy on Tilapia to be purposely suppressed but yet keep them off the prohibited list as well.

I would love to see how your RES do. If you can overwinter I may try again (and now I know where I can get some too My initial stockers did not survive long. I think I had one winter and 2 summers with them but by the 2nd winter they didn't make it. My pond isn't as deep and the last winter had much more snow cover and less sunshine.

Without our more mild winters lately they might do well.

Post more pictures if you happen to catch any larger 'bluegill' and we can see what they are

If it were my pond that had the apparent high number of YOY RES AND I had access to a nearby mature SMB fishery, I would definitely make an attempt to get a few 8"-14" SMB for transport to my pond as tools for consuming small sunfish be they RES or possibility those unwanted BG. Temperature Stressed YOY RES would be very easy catch food for predators big enough to eat them. The main negative of doing this IMO would be the larger SMB might eat a few of the 4"-6" stocker smallies.

When holding and transporting a few mature SMB be sure to have ample water for hauling to minimize stress as mostly low dissolved oxygen on the smallies that had already been stressed due to the angling and physical handling. One does not want to go to all the trouble of going and catching a few smaller bass and then have them die after restocking. IMO one cannot have too much water for hauling mature fish. IMO 10 gallons of bubbler aerated water minimum for EACH fish would be adequate IMO for holding and hauling them for 1 to maybe 3 hrs. Adding one pound of non-iodized salt to the hauling water of around 40 gallons will help reduce hauling stress. A plastic barrel with the top cut off or a large plastic garbage can would be good transport containers. You can put a garbage bag liner in the container & tie it shut to keep the water from sloshing out of the container.

I went and got smb and a few more perch from Ron today. 20smb and another 25yp. I met esshup while I was there as he was getting smb as well. They were a bit smaller than I had anticipated so I’m worried about bucket stocking bigger smb right now and losing some that I just stocked. I think I will wait till next year to see what it’s looking like. If true res I may lose some over winter and may not have an issue.

JoshMI You mentioned They were a bit smaller than I anticipated so I am worried.... " Are you saying they being smaller was referring the to YP? What sizes were both of the species that you stocked on Saturday?

Good to meet you JoshMi!!

Bill he's talking about the YP. They were 21/2"-3" Max (I measured them).. I was giving Ron a hand bagging fish for the customers to take home. JoshMi. did they all make it O.K.? I finally pulled in the door tonight just as it was getting dark out and my 7am Delivery tomorrow morning called and wants me to get there by 6. And he's 90 miles away.........

'night ya'll!!!!

Bill/esshup I did get mostly smaller smb as well. 3-4” range I’d say. The ones he netted ranged in size prob 3-8” but most of what he had left for me were the smaller size. I’m going to say 6-8 we’re 5”+ and the rest were 3-5”. He was netting the pond again as I was leaving, I’m kicking myself now for not staying and buying 10 more of the larger ones out of that net.

Eshupp- I had 2 perch that were not doing real well when I released them but they either eventually swam away or sank. one was really struggling to keep itself upright the other was just kind of hovering near the surface of the pond. Everything else seemed to swim off fine. All the smb seemed good

JoshMI - Please be sure to keep us updated about the pond's progress, especially next spring. Also it would be very helpful to let us know when first ice arrives and last ice leaves i.e. number of days ice covered. Make a note as to how much snow cover the pond receives this winter season. IMO those AK redear brood stock are not adapted to nor used to a significant winter which is why I think a lot of southern purchased RES do not survive well in states above the Ohio River especially if they have to undergo significant winter conditions.

Caught 2 more 6” res last night. All of the ones I’ve caught hook and line were for sure res and had the red ear tab. I fed a few handfuls of pellets and had a bigger fish splash around the food so I’m thinking I had a smb come up to the feed. Not sure if it was eating pellets or the minnows that we’re feeding. I haven’t noticed any larger fish feeding when I throw out pellets just minnows nibbling. Will res or yp feed on surface or do they typically wait for the pellets to sink? What about smb?

SMB definitely hit feed on the surface.

RES and YP are probably less prone to hitting floating feed, but I have observed both doing it.

In my observation my LMB and SMB hit the surface hard feeding on the minnows and CNBG that are feeding on the pellets. I have seen the bass sitting below the surface eating the sinking pellets but they never eat the floating stuff.
The SMB will bounce off the dock, jump on the bank, fly threw the air to eat a baby fish.

Getting non pellet trained RES and YP to eat pellets at the surface is a challenge that requires diligence and patience. The best success reported here and by others of getting RES to eat pellet food on the surface is to use Optimal bluegill food (2 sizes available) that is composed of a large percentage of short worm like pellets. The pellet flavor shape reportedly appeals to RES feeding habits. Bruce Condello swears by the food for getting RES to eat pellets. If the YP were feed trained when purchased they and many other species will often be attracted to the feeding area by the minnows working on the pellets. I have found that YP are much more likely to eat pellets at the surface from when the sun hits the horizon until darkness (the crepuscular period) . The closer to darkness the better the YP will feed at the surface.

One trick to get RES, YP & bass to eat pellets is to make the pellets moist and moldable as rolled / oval shaped pellets that sink. This type of food has the excellent flavor and texture of live food and is very readily accepted by most any fish. It takes extra time to do all this,, but the benefits of creating pellet eating fish far out weigh the time involved. I regularly hand feed moist food to all my fish. It does not take long each night to soak food for the next day's hand feeding. Another BIG benefit to the moist food is you can mold it onto a hook whenever you want to catch a fish. My prior posts have talked about softening food and there was my article in PB mag about doing it,

May June 1998 special pellet feeding issue.
The Softer Side of Feeding Fish By Bill Cody

Thanks all, I have tried soaking them but have never rolled them. I will have to try that. I do typically try to feed closer to dark. I get a lot of minnow activity but not much for bigger fish. IM hoping these smb I just put in come up for feed or minnows on the surface as it’s always fun to watch!

For molding the pellets, they have to have just the right amount of moisture for the correct soaking time to get them to shape and roll well like modeling clay. Too much moisture and they are mushy and not enough moisture they will not mold well into shapes that hold together well. Practice makes perfect. For the moistened pellets that are too firm, they will grind real up real quickly and well in a blender to make ground feed for the minnows.

Cheap fish pellets from box stores will not soften properly for softening and shaping, However they as low cost damp pellets will work well for grinding to feed minnows. Pellets for shaping need to have the higher protein content to form a relatively firm texture.