Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Forage Rankings

I've been scouring the internet and the forum on forage and came across on old post on PB that directed me to Lakework.com. Full disclosure, I am not affiliated with them, have never used their services, or talked directly to any other their staff. The opening statement made me think about forage rankings. There are lots of ways to look at it in my opinion. Seasonality, Cost per Unit, Regional Availability, Must be part of the food chain, Helpful if they are part of the food chain...

I wasn't expecting to see Crawfish over RBT. From memory, apologies for not being able to site the source, common carp were high on the list but never recommended due to other problems they can cause. Similarly, gizzard shad are less commonly recommended but if managed properly can be a really good source of food for Large LMB. So, lets assume that the basics are covered, the water is in good shape (not perfect), fertilizer optional.

Basics - LMB
BG or CNBG is a must have.
RES or PS are a helpful fish but wouldn't rank in the "need" to have.
Fish Feeder or Feeding program with Quality Food - While not a need, again helpful to grow more and/or bigger fish.

Basics on SMB
YP as a must have?
RES or PS are helpful no a need?
Fish Feeder or Feeding program with Quality Food - While not a need, again helpful to grow more and/or bigger fish.

Basics on BG or CNBG
LMG over abundance/stunted is a need
RES or PS are a helpful fish but wouldn't rank in the "need" to have.
Fish Feeder or Feeding program with Quality Food - While not a need, again helpful to grow more and/or bigger fish.

Is there a way to rank forage beyond the basics? If a pond owner said I have a few extra bucks and I want to push my fish a little bit further. What would your go to choice be? Which of the fish below or ones not listed provide the highest food value?

Crawfish?
Rainbow Trout?
Tilapia
Tadpoles?
Goldfish?
Shad?
Shimp?
Freshwater Prawns?
Boosting one of the Basic Fish or Pellets in the pond/lake?
Lake Chubsuckers?
Earthworms?
Golden Shiners?
YP addition to a LMB pond/lake?
Scuds?
???

Happy to hear thoughts from all members at PB. Maybe it was a pond you fished many moons ago that had some forage not as common but the fish in the pond were outstanding on quality. Perhaps it's a recommendation that the pros give to clients wanting to take the next step on quality of the fishery. Could be that you found some info on the net or in research paper.

There was a study reported in the (next to, I think) last issue of In Fisherman that stated that crayfish are of less nutritional value to bass than several forage species of fish.

Old saying: only bluegills can spawn enough to feed bass and only bass can eat enough bluegills to prevent a fish kill.

To me, the trick is feeding the bluegills all they can eat and culling small bass so they don’t eat all the small bluegills before they can spawn.

Thus, the best bass raiser is a bluegill farmer that assures that bluegills get all they can eat of food that is of the appropriate size.

Both need food that is 1/4 to 1/3 their body size or enough pellets to make a difference.

The goal is the right (balanced) nutrition at the right time.

Theo - do you have the In-Fisherman Month and /or Volume and #? I have heard the crayfish nutritional value both ways quite high as Lakework claims and as I have read from a journal publication and then again other reports say not so high. What are we to believe?

I think we should reserve judgment as to the nutritional value of crayfish. Northern Crayfish have been shown to have an energy density comparable to RBT but to date I have not seen anything regarding nutritional value for LMB. Below is a listing I posted in an earlier post with reported energy densities.


At first glance it may seem that northern crayfish are better than RBT but don't be quick to judge them to have more nutritional value than RBT for LMB. Here is why. Crayfish are invertebrates and their exoskeleton comprises a not so negligible proportion of their weight and energy content. The exoskeleton is primarily composed of chitin. Chitin is a complex carbohydrate that is not easily digested. Only fish with the appropriate chitinase enzymes for digestion could extract energy from the chitin of crayfish. Part of that listed energy is probably not accessible to LMB. Are crayfish good forage? Yes, I think so. But we aren't going to understand crayfish digestible energy until we determine how well they support and grow LMB. This needs to be done in a laboratory setting to be reliable and to date I am not aware of any such tests.

Crayfish offer some benefits. They are a seasonal crop that is perishable and so when in abundant supply they are very cheap to buy relative to other forages. In the spring after winter consumption reduces forage numbers and before new crops of YOY replace them there is a window where Crayfish could provide a much needed supplement either to maintain or to grow large LMB. Regardless of the actual digestible energy, Crayfish are probably easier to consume than fish. So the time rate at which crayfish can be consumed is probably higher than fish giving LMB a leg up on total daily energy consumption. They have a place. It seems like Lusk once said that LMB will finish off crayfish supplements before resuming consumption of BG. This truly makes a lot of sense to me.

As Dave mentioned, everyone should have BG as core food produced in situ. Where the production is less than needed to achieve goals, any highly available forage at affordable prices can fill gaps that are occurring. It would seem to be important to understand when forage gaps will be occurring. Everyday is day that an LMB's metabolism is running and it will burn energy no matter what. They will eat everyday to maintain that energy burning and if they get any extra ... they will gain.

Dave - Curious, do you do anything other than pellets to keep the BG at max production along with culling of the LMB?

Theo - thanks for the direction on the study I'm going to try to track it down.


I think I remember this post from my early days on PB, and it's likely where I remember the common carp value I mentioned above. Was this by chance in a thread we were talking about Trophy LMB and RBT?

Common Carp and GS would both probably be off my list for anything other than fresh cut hand feeding due to trouble I would likely face in introduced into the pond.

Rainbows and Crays are very interesting to me. I wonder how one would rank a forage species if there was a chance one of them would potentially recruit year of year vs annual mortality due to water temps. TP not listed above also fit into this category I think with the annual mortality - and their need to die due to being more prolific than BG.

I have that table saved in a text file and have posted it here before. Not sure which post.

Did you mean Goldfish in instead of Golden Shiner as species to avoid? I do think hand cut carp or goldfish would be good food for your LMB.

Swingle tested a lot of species in combination with LMB. In the end he settled on BG. BG did not provide as much first year gains as other forages ... but they had staying power and developed a balance where both predator and prey reach sizes to harvest. All of the other species, lost staying power or just didn't produce enough forage for the LMB. Reasons for losing staying power.

1. Brooding adults consumed. So minnow species fit this category. They can't get big enough to avoid predation and as a consequence they are most often extirpated.

2. Brooding adults live too long and grow too large. Carp and goldfish fit this category. Once they fill the carry capacity they stop reproducing very well. The carry capacity is too full of big fish that cannot be eaten by even the largest of LMB. The water is forage locked.

IMO, when adding additional forage, they should interfere as little as possible with the production of BG. Their presence should increase recruitment of BG to juvenile sizes. Species that can be extirpated are great because the brood population can be controlled. Additional forage should augment BG ... or at least that is my opinion. Rather than ranking, I like an approach that understands the balance of energy needs of a dynamic, growing (by individual weight not by numbers) population of LMB. Such an approach would seek the most cost effective way to supply the energy consumption needed by supplementation when natural in-situ production is falling short.

BD, please, no more questions for me.

If you look at crawfish in the human diet (we don't eat the exoskeleton) they are considered a good diet food; low in calories but high in protein. So if you were a very creative thinker you might assume crawfish would be a valuable protein source for LMB but maybe the presence of an oily or fatty forage fish for calories (with the craws) would be beneficial? Also where do the craws get their protein... from plants. I'd think its probably nice to convert plants into fish wt as well as plankton and other fish.

My error here.....GS should have been GSD (Gizzard Shad).

I think GSD and common carp are a great way to add forage. The reproduction numbers are amazing

Boon, no; I don’t do much other than hope Mama Nature lends a hand.

A couple of considerations.

I live 70 miles from the land.

We have been in along term, 3 year, drought. I have one big pond and 4 small ones. All but one of the small ones were dry. Recent 4 inch rain, took 4 days so not as much runoff as I hoped for. That’s called a farmers rain. Smaller ponds, actually glorified puddles, came up about 6 inches. My big one came up about 10 inches. Previously, all but one were bone dry. Good thing I sold the cattle.

My 3 acre one is now one acre. Thus, my feeder can’t reach the water. When I or grandsons go there we toss in a bunch of feed. It all gets eaten. The topography(slope) of the pond precludes me from moving the feeder closer to the water. Generally, somebody is there once a week or more and tosses out a bunch of feed. A consideration is that bass and my remaining catfish that I call Nautilus also shows up with some bass so the sunfish are reluctant to feed.

I occasionally whiz away a bunch of money when a fish truck comes. I buy 10 to 15 pounds of fathead minnows to feed the bottom of the food chain.

As two interesting points mentioned above:


These are good points and interesting concepts.
1. When using small species such as minnows / shiners in a pond fishery as a purpose for long term success as forage fish, A. it is important to have have the correct amount of refuge habitat to protect some of the forage population until the next breeding cycle. When correct refuge habitat is not provided and or too many predators are present one has to periodically be purchasing more forage items such as those who are buying FHM each year. B. When using small forage species it is important to match the small size of adult forage species with the adult size of the main predator species.

2. Note - some but not all brooding adults live too long and grow too large, common fish in this group are common carp, goldfish, often gizzard shad and grass carp. Grass carp even though they do not reproduce they do IMO influence the pond's carry capacity. These are items to keep in mind when evaluating a fishery that involves carrying capacity.

Bill, your video links sent me on youtube surf and I think one speaks to and adds support to your comment on grass carp above. I suspect GC are too abundant both in numbers and biomass in the water this guy was fishing. He said a tributary of the Illinois River. Not sure, but I think he meant the Illinois River in OK which is tributary of the Arkansas River. Although these grass carp aren't the triploid variety this shows what grass carp will do when vegetation is in short supply. Anyways, for the viewing enjoyment of all:

[video:youtube][/video]

Good video. Those GC must be diploids and reproducing in the tributary of the Illinois Rv. IMO this guy should have taken one of those fish home and ate it. He might decide they are worth keeping and using some recipe to cook them. Smoked they ought to be tasty. Smoked white meat grass carp sounds pretty darn good. Maybe someone here will try that.

Good point. It's really great that he was fishing for them but would have been better if was removing them instead of releasing them.