Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Evaluating New Pond and New Fish

At what water temp (50-55?) would winter growth or lack thereof happen?

The "big" forage dump for TP will happen on what they can consume from hatch this year in the 50's.
100lbs of GSH is planned for Fall/Winter forage just to make sure there is no shortage of edibles in the pond. That will coincide with the cooler fall temps.

What would the growth rate slow to (25-50%)?

Boondoggle,

Your fish are outpacing the model. I have to increase consumption by 23% in order to get a match for your largest fish on 8.24. So it started out consuming 20% of its body weight of GAM equivalent forage. Pretty amazing. Does anyone want to venture a guess as to the weight of forage his 8.24 LMB at .36 lbs consumed (of GAM equivalent forage) from 5.31through 8.24? Hint. The GAM FCR was 1.33.

Hmmm....Only thing I can think of is to take the avg daily mm growth and apply it over X # of days. Then apply the avg RW to the new length as my milestone marker to check against.

What would be a fair estimated daily growth rate for winter as a percentage of the other seasons?

I don't know the answer to the question you asked. 1.33 x I would assume starting number?

I am not quite sure how to model the winter. One approach I have thought of is to take excess consumption and model it as a proportion of maintenance. For example, in modeling the consumption required of 9" growing to 13" I found LMB must have been consuming (IIRC) almost 4 times maintenance. On the coldest days this was in the neighborhood of 2% of body weight daily. At the edges of the 6 month period the water was warmer and they were estimated to consume 6% of body daily. Perhaps a good way to model winter should be based the excess consumption as a proportion of maintenance which is length dependent. Big Big fish do not consume large excesses over maintenance even in summer. A good rule of thumb? Consuming twice the maintenance ration for a year will double its weight. So imagine a 12 lbs bass doing that and growing to 24 lbs. Can't and won't happen because they will not eat that much. They get food drunk like after a thanksgiving dinner (you know where all the relatives are leaning back on the couch with mouths open and snoring). Or something like it. Big fish won't double in weight but a 2 lb LMB can and will if it consumes enough.


I have mentioned this before. I only have 1 winter anecdote. I did use that to make a maximum consumption estimate assuming your fish were 9" on September 30. So I do think the potential is there to have fish >2 lbs on May 31 next year. As long as there is plenty of forage in their optimum forage window ... I see that as a done deal. Your fish's performance over the 6 months beginning 9.30 will be another reference point for us. Just keep in mind that you have a greater number of them and they will be heavier than they were in my anecdote. It will take more forage for sure. If they feed to repletion we should gain knowledge of maximum rates of growth at your location. One way to be sure of that is to supplement a fair proportion of what I earlier estimated was necessary just to be sure that enough of the right sized forage is there.

Two test brackets based off of the "known data" that we should be able to modify as more results come in. Basically setting a band or range that I hope to test and prove. Quazi applying Bill Cody's - Trophy Bass Concepts growth rates that we seem to be lining up with 1.0 - 2.0mm per day. Technically, the TBC posts lists 1.26mm as the base but BC had responded to a post saying 1.0mm per day was still considered good growth and I expanded the range as a result.

8.24.24 - from the catch summary I posted above on the LMB

175mm (6.9") @ .22 lbs 153% RW and an avg growth rate per day of 1.47mm (May 31 - Aug 24).
205mm (8.1") @ .36 lbs 148% RW and an avg growth rate per day of 1.82mm (May 31 - Aug 24).

10.19.24 - Test Bracket - Assumes continued growth rate is the same.

257mm (10.1") @ .765 lbs 153% RW
300mm (11.8") @ 1.235 lbs @ 148% RW

Basically, testing for 10-12" fish on Oct 19. Water temps would need to remain in active growing season rates and forage would be critical.

What's driving it? Largemouth Bass Growth Rates Per Year

Honestly, a little shocked at the growth rates we are seeing. I don't think we have Super LMB growing at freakish rates, though they are good for sure. I think the information on the web either is outdated, or doesn't count what happens when low predators and high forage are applied - likely the later. As we currently don't have a supplemental forage pond available to dump "forage at will", the plan is to plan and project where the fish are going to be a season or two ahead and line up the resources ahead of it via forage bump stocking (TP, BG, GSH, maybe in the furture RBT...), and culling.

BD,

I think your growth being above what TWPD reports is because its a new pond with lots of minnow sized forage. New ponds grow lots of small forage. 6" and 10" to 12" is usually what I see here for Fall lengths in the late September time frame for the 0 and 1 year olds. In a new pond with minnows I would expect something very similar to what you are seeing.

High BG standing weights in water at carrying capacity compete with LMB YOY for the same forage. This delays growth.

I give +1 for what jusdad is saying. New LMB often grow very good in new ponds with excess forage and no competition from offspring. As soon as the offspring are 8months to 1 yr old, food availability becomes limited and growth rate slows down based on amount of food available. This is when FHM population experiences a big decline.

Makes sense. Thanks for the replies.

Was out messing around at/in the pond this evening pulling the fencing off of the pond plants, filling the feeder general cleanup around the water. Happened to be over at the West bank and witnessed the LMB actively feeding or trying to on the flavor of the day. I haven't sampled any of the fish recently but if the growth projections are holding the 9"+ is where I'm thinking they are now.

The flavor of the day was TP. This little fella either got knocked up on the bank or in its efforts to evade being eaten ended up almost 12" up on the bank. I did rescue the little fella successfully trimmed up his tail a tad and let him go back in the water. High hopes he or she doesn't make it back up on the shore again.

" I did rescue the little fella successfully trimmed up his tail a tad and let him go back in the water. High hopes he or she doesn't make it back up on the shore again."



....a little altruism mixed in with the brutality of Mother Nature???

That is a funny observation, Sunil.

Lots of talk on the forum of trying to take great care of our forage fish so they will happily multiply ... in the hopes that they will then be slaughtered by our predator fish!

We are certainly a strange group. Good thing the internet tucked all of us into this small, obscure corner.

My sister in town today with her son and stopped by the pond to let him get a few casts in, check on some fish at the same time. He had a ball with BG and TP by the feeder. Sister caught one of the YP in her mess of fish. Fish were definitely keyed in on the 0 size Mepps Silver Blade with a white skirt. Whoever was tossing that bait was catching fish 4:1 over the other baits. We thought it was best in my nephew's hands.

In total (3) LMB were caught.

230mm .44lbs 125% RW 113days from stocking @ 1.58mm per day
240mm .53lbs 131% RW 113days from stocking @ 1.68mm per day
250mm .61lbs 132% RW 113days from stocking @ 1.76mm per day

Tad on the warm side so the fish were returned without pics. I'll try to do better next time!

Really great growth BD. Just awesome. Almost 10" for the largest fish. You should be averaging around that length by the first of October.

It was bothering me that I didn't see a 10" the other day. Was out at the property to work on the orchard a little and had to throw a line for a bit. Overall fish looked like it was in decent shape but was a little thin in the belly.



255mm .61lbs 124% RW 115Days @ 1.78mm per day and looks like it needs to find a meal!

Seems as though all of the LMB I have caught on the peninsula have been a bit lighter and a bit longer than the others in the pond. This is the area that has the large rock outcroppings and some spiderblocks mixed in.

Good, Bad or Ugly...they all get posted.

TOAD 🐸

Nothing wrong with that one, nice fish.

When a person wraps their head around must how much that fish has grown since May 31st when it was just ~2 grams in weight ... well ... only well done comes to mind. More than 276 grams today. Its weight is 138 times what it was then. Or another way of saying the same thing? It has increased its weight by 13,700 %.

I still think it needs to eat a #4 value meal and wouldn't hurt to biggie size it with desert! Fun to watch the little guys grow though!

Indeed, maybe a baconator combo with a large chocolate frosty!

Forage bump 2024 started today! I was hoping to hold off on this for another couple of weeks but due to the recent drops in RW I decided to get a little early start.

Recent trapping was not very successful on locating good numbers of BG. I did see some here and there but nothing I could say I felt comfortable on numbers with. TP 1-4", and mosquito fish seemed to be pretty prevalent in at least a couple areas of the pond. Out deeper it looked like some 5-6" GSH, 5-6" TP were hitting pellets on the top of the water. I did find (4) rather large crays in one of the traps that are much larger than anything I've put in. I don't think they are the same species from the creek and they are likely out of the range of my current predator base consume. Next year however....I'd love to see that battle royal take place.

I ended up stocking 44lbs of Shiners in the 3" avg range and 8lbs of shiners in the 4" range just in case one of the LMB or YP feels adventurous.

Still have an additional round of forage bump to go for another 100lbs of GSH and 1,000 BG in the 3-4" range.

How to eat an elephant!


Couple of pics from the adventures.

Love the dollar bill reference...!!!

Boondoggle - If you are having to add all that additional forage to keep the bass growing for their first full year in the pond, what will you be needing to add each year when the LMB and YP are 3 and 4 yrs old to keep them growing with RWs of 100+?

That is a great question Mr Cody. I'd be the first to admit I don't understand the reasoning behind not seeing many BG with all of the vids that's I've shot of forage in the pond but with the RW dropping the only thing I can lean toward is a hole in the food chain.

Did the YP and LMB blow through all of it? The Fry and TP numbers say no but the LMB RW's say yes (Novice Opinion).
YP were also a net negative on forage as I have not seen a single small YP to date. The goal with stocking them in March was to try to get a spawn off of them but it seems like it didn't happen.

This was shot Tuesday: Feeder / West Bank

This was 3 weeks ago: Feeder / West Bank

Nothing has changed at that location. While on site today it looks virtually the same.

We will likely do TP again next year. I might change how I do it however. In my opinion we fed a lot of male TP that we didn't need to. Considering sexing the TP so that we stock an initial set of males that is smaller.

Sexing TP

Praying that the small stocking of Crays takes off (250 of them total from my trapping). I went limited here because I am still trying to get some plants going. If I go full bore and denude the pond I'm working backwards I think.

I'd be happy to hear thoughts or suggestions for sure. Only thing I know to do is pump additional forage in to fill what seems to be an apparent hole in the chain and hope things even back out next year with the BG numbers. Should there be some underperforming LMB in the pond come spring.....well.....I'm not opposed to practicing my filleting skills...

Worse case BD, this forage will be consumed sooner or later. I applaud this decision and I think you will get good results from it. I like the size range for the Shiners. I think they match the LMB at their current stage very well. This boost could have the bonus of growing your LMB significantly before the TP die. This can only help them at the time of the TP die off to consume more. So I do like the "build it and they will come" that you are doing.

Things change rapidly in a pond. All the fish are growing and interacting and all this interaction along with the seasonal impetus affects forage production and populations dynamicly. We are completing a season right now and in your judgment the population of consumable forage was lacking to support growth into the next growing season. I find it very difficult to disagree with you and I think your arguments are sound even if someone might argue they are incorrect.

Bill mentioned if you are having to do this this year, what about next year and so on. I would like to say this. Next year is a different year. Instead of starting with 50 grams of LMB, you are going to have something between 35 to 50 lbs of LMB. There will not be nearly so many TP growing to 4-6 inches as there are this year. Many more of your TP will be consumed and this consumption will drive growth resulting from consumption that was not realized this year because your LMB were just too small and weighed too little to fully utilize them. So don't think that you wlll have supplement like this all the time, particularly with your very limited LMB population posture. Probably, a combination of factors stemming from stocking rates of different fish species culminated in the current status you now observe that you are now responding to with a supplement of forage.

Thanks JPS. Just going off of what the fish are presenting, and the traps are showing and some useful info here on PB. I had planned on doing some supplemental forage this year but ramped it up over 50% and moved it ahead on date due to what I was seeing on site in the traps and drops in RW of the LMB. I'm hopeful that forage will fire on all cylinders next year with spawns and this will just be a hiccup that I got to learn from.

Not counting on having anything on the FHM left.
I am hopeful that the GAMs will remain in the pond. I think they will be good for the YP and BG.
YP should have no reason not to as they have been in the pond for a full year and were stocked at 4-7".
Hopefully some of the GSH are remaining and will fire off next year as well.
I know the BG are in the 6-7" range from original stocking so no doubt they will be banging out babies as well.
Add of the TP trying to purposely hold back some of the males.

LMB with lower performance will likely get brought home for supper which I hope helps with the forage pops overall. Much easier in my opinion to cull the LMB than do an emergency stocking of forage to get things back on track. Not that I wouldn't do it again if "needed".

If there's one I'm still trying to figure out it is Crays vs RBT but I'll work on that another day. Be good to have some winter reading!