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#567408 05/30/24 07:29 PM
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Was at the pond for a minute yesterday and there was TONS of tiny baby fish just under the surface. Huge schools of them. Length were probably 1/8 - 1/4 of inch. I didn't have time to try to catch any.

Any change a guy could possibly know what they are based on the date?
South Central KS. There's bass, crappie, bluegill, green sunfish, and golden shiners in there. We've had low water levels for 2 yrs and I've been afraid that the GS got gobbled up. I'm hopeful that's what these are.

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Seeing similar booms of fish a Northeast KS Cats. Ours are in the 1/2-3/4" range from what I could see today. I'm assuming these are FHM, in my case, as they are a slender sliver fish with what I think is a gray/black lateral line starting to form.

Bullfrogs have croaked (so LMB have spawned) and the full moon just passed so it could be BG too.

GS are close if they haven't spawned yet.

Not much help for you but it is exciting to see those babies in the pond. Keep watching to see how they develop and send a pic...I bet one of the pros can help identify.


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Are they jet black or light tan/grey?
BG don't generally show up on the surface and FHM start well before GSH. In the KS area, GSH can spawn as many as 3-4 times a year. Obviously this is not all on the same day so FHM and GSH are hatching nearly every day once they start.
I would say they are very likely FHM.

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The ones we saw were not jet black, more Grey than anything.
I've never seen a FHM in my pond and have never stocked them. But there certainly are other types of minnows in the pond. I presume they are natives (besides the GS's).

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I caught a few of the little guys this evening. The first Pic is one of the really small ones, the 2nd Pic is of a bigger one. They are everywhere! Any ideas on species?

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That second pic looks like a FHM to me - but I stink at fish IDs and defer to the experts.

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There is a little more "V" in the tail perhaps compared to FHMs?

In that case, it may be a bluntnose minnow. They are in the same genus (Pimephales) as FHMs.



I believe the naming conventions in that genus are to give the poor little minnows some vaguely insulting names based on their looks. grin

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I "think" it's a shiner of some sort. It's not a GSH or RSH but maybe a common shiner of some sort.

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catscratch,

If Snipe does not agree with my possible IDs, then ignore my comments. (I trust his ID skills 100x more than mine.)

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Lol, I hope you don't take this wrong... but I trust Snipe's id'ing skills about 100x more than yours too. (I really am joking).

FHM doesn't make a lot of sense to me as to my knowledge they've never been stocked, but stranger things have happened.

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Originally Posted by catscratch
Lol, I hope you don't take this wrong... but I trust Snipe's id'ing skills about 100x more than yours too. (I really am joking).

That is why I made the post above to ignore my IDs. New posters don't know all of the backgrounds of the various members, old members do! (I was pretty sure you knew, but didn't want you giving my ID any weight.)



However, you actually could have FHMs in your watershed pond. Any little pond with FHMs above you in the watershed could have had them wash out through their overflow during one of the big rains this spring. They might even spawn in the creek pools and then the next rain event moves some down to your pond/lake.

Did you ever use the FishMap.org info that I have posted a few times in the past to check your watershed?

It is an awesome resource. I don't know your exact watershed, but I have checked my buddy's creek that lives out your way. I believe there are TEN different shiners in his watershed! (Although, certainly fewer than that exist at his particular creek location.)

If you look up the watershed for your place, it will list all of the species. You then need to google good images for your subject species and compare to your photos. If you then post a link to the name and image of that fish species, and our resident experts confirm that matches your photo, then I would call that a positive identification!

P.S. There are tons of wrong images of minnow species in Google Images, etc., so make sure you confirm with multiple, trustworthy sources.

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I just tried fishmap.org and got an out of service message. Is it working for you?

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Originally Posted by catscratch
I just tried fishmap.org and got an out of service message. Is it working for you?

I guessed at your area and checked it this morning and it worked for me.

However, it is a little buggy sometimes and gives me an error message. Usually when I click on the map at a different scale, it works on that attempt.





I just clicked on the city of Winfield and it worked. I then clicked on the city of Dexter and it did NOT work.

Try clicking a little outside of your area if you can't get it to work and see if it will work on a nearby watershed. Perhaps there is a bug on YOUR watershed right now?

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I'm 99.9% sure it's a Sand shiner, which is very common throughout the entire state. Others may have another opinion.

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Snipe (and others),

Does it even matter if we get perfect identification in most situations?

I am not meaning to be flippant.

The watershed in that area contains:

Arkansas River Shiner
Bigeye Shiner
Blacknose Shiner
Emerald Shiner
Ghost Shiner
Mimic Shiner
River Shiner
Sand Shiner
Topeka Shiner

Bluntface Shiner
Cardinal Shiner
Carmine Shiner
Golden Shiner
Red Shiner
Redfin Shiner

The top nine are all from genus Notropis.

So for example, if some guy in Missouri got one of his local Notropis species shiners from his creek to establish a sustained population in his one-acre pond, would a different species of shiner in the same genus also have a similar chance of establishing in a similar Kansas pond? [Assuming some species in the genera would be equally happy in a calm pond as they were in a creek with some current.]

Or do you think there would still be significant lifestyle and habitat preferences within that genera, such that we would need species level information to make useful predictions?

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Fish that live in creeks and not in lakes will be hard pressed to establish themselves in a pond. Typically they need flowing water in their habitat. Now if they live in both then it's a different story.


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The very reason there are so many species of shiners is due to their different abilities. Each has a specific niche they are suited to fill, no two fill the same niche exactly the same way. One will always be the best at proliferation in a certain environment that the others aren't quite great at. So to answer the question... if the system is closed and only one species is introduced it may or may not be able to take over that niche. If all the possible species were introduced at the same time they'd fill all suitable niches with only the best suited one taking over any certain niche. Hope that made sense.


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