Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Dry Hydrants in ponds

I'm adding on to my house and my homeowners insurance for the new improved place jumped from $400 per year to over $1000, their reason being I'm so far from a fire hydrant any fire would likely totally destroy the place. I've read up on dry hydrants and since my house is within 200 feet of my pond a dry hydrant is a viable option for fire fighting. I would like to know if any of you have experience with insurance rates and what types of discounts are available if a dry hydrant is installed.

Pa,

I touched on this subject awhile back. The link is listed below.

Ponds and HO Insurance

Out of curiosity, I'm going to call my agent again to see if their policy has changed.

On the subject of dry hydrants, I offer the following comments. My neighborhood is located outside the town water district. I contacted the local fire department to see about having a dry hydrant installed to benefit not only my property, but the neighbors as well. They informed me that a hydrant was not necessary with the equipment they have. I thought a dry hydrant would be much easier to tap into, especially in the winter with ice cover, but they didn't see a need for one.

Russ

We don't have a dry hydrant but our local fire department uses our lake for practice and also as a water source for any fires in the neighborhood.

I don't get no steenking discount, however, I have told the fire chief to always consider my ponds as a source of pumpable firewater if need be. I always maintain a nice mown path to the water's edge on the first, and will probably do so on the second as well...or else my wife will know the reason why!

So, Norm, you are okay with your water possibly spreading unwanted fish, whirling desease, and/or other unwanted substances to contaminate someone else's water? That seems reasonable?

Just for the record, it also seems reasonable to me, but not perhaps consistent with your views expressed elsewhere. If I were your neighbor, maybe I would value my ponds' purity over a fire in an outbuilding or grass or whatever. Just checking.

We put in a dry hydrant when we built the pond, figuring doing it at the same time would cost a little less. We installed the recommended "bench" in front of the hydrant for hose support and situated gates in two fence rows to try and accomodate firetrucks. In (nearly) four years we have been unable to get the local FD to come out and test/try it - the dry hydrant clinic we attended said it should be back-flushed and test pumped once a year. No break on home insurance either; even though it's 200 yds from the house, it's not located "on an improved road."

When I think about it I wonder if (in our situation) we should have bothered - I guess it's something we did to try and mitigate fire risk, hope I never find out if it will help.

Matt,
You should at least get a Badge!

I like the idea of having something to start fighting the fire before the volunteer fire fighters in the area get to my house. The Fire Fighters in the area also use my pond as a source for pumpable water for fires in the neighborhood. I guess if the intake for the hydrant comes from deep water it would also be a means to recirculate water from below the thermocline. Just turn the thing on and spray the water back into the pond.? When I move up to Washington I plan on joining the volunteer force, Then I will have a better idea to response times. But I still like the idea of being able to fight the fire myself before help arrives.

Ric:

I spent about 9 years on our vol department and we hadda suck water out of ponds several times over those years to fight grass/timber fires.

It's not easy, but it works. We never relied on hydrants, but had a floating intake on 30 feet of hard hose that would reach beyond most "moss rings" to clean water. It only required 6 inches of water to work. Hadda be careful you didn't wind the pumpers up too high and suck in sand, sticks, or fish...

Only bad part was having to flush the trucks/tanks with potable water afterwards. If you didn't, man those trucks got to stinkin' after a week or so.

So, can we re-visit this thread for a moment...?
I spent 4 hours with my contractor at the pondsite a couple of weekends ago, discussing a host of ideas and changes I threw onto the table. One of them was discussing the drain at the dam...this lead to my desire for a dry hydrant. He stops, looks at me quizically and asks what I would want that for. I made the obvious response "for house fire protection". He dryly responded "if there's a fire that needs a hydrant to put it out, most folks just use a fan". I can't say I totally disagree.
Anyway, I told him that I was going to approach the fire fighting force for my district and ask them for the correct size fitting to put at the socket (based on websites offering 5" or 6", check your area). He thinks a moment and follows by saying that I better be careful or they will "put me on the list". (The list?) He continues to explain that suitable pond owners get on the list as a water source. Does anybody have experience with "the list"?
Later, I call a reputable, local insurance agent to ask the potential savings by having a dry hydrant/pond set up for firefighting...same thing as Theo: fuggedaboutit.
So, I am trapped by the decision and I gotta commit pretty soon. The building site is going to be right on top of the pond, and the homesite and out-structures will all be within 150 feet of the water. I plan the dry hydrant within this zone and about 30 feet off of my boat launch road (for truck access), directly adjacent to this building site.
.....or, should I buy a fan?
p.s. I am painfully aware of the horrible Lusk tragedy and in no way intend to minimize the risk of fire. I just want to make an advised and practical decision.

As I stated above, it can be a tough decision when you can't see a clear advantage.

I would not be worried about "the list" - it only makes sense that the local FD would want to know where dry hydrants were located so they could reach the closest one(s) to fill up when there's a fire. They're only going to use it to try and save someone's property - if it were mine, I'd want them to be able to.

In deciding on a dry hydrant, perhaps it could be useful to ask yourself what kind of person you are wrt risk mitigation. Do you wear seatbelts? Signal for turns? (If yes, you probably don't live in Ohio) Pay more for insurance than the law requires? If you do most of those (and I do not mean to disparage you if you don't), you would probably feel better if you spend a few hundred to a thousand and put in a dry hydrant.

Just my $.02

I had thought about installing a dry hydrant in my pond next to the the house. I talked to a buddy of mine who is the district fire chief. He told me that most dept's don't use them anymore, they use floating rings because they always work.

In our case, having a dry hydrant made it possible to get insurance at a reasonable rate. It was not a matter of how much a given company would charge, but of which companies would even consider us. The local volunteer fire dept. comes every year to test and back-flush the hydrant, a fun thing to watch.

Since I fertilize very heavily in the warm months, I especially hope that we don’t have a fire at that time. The pea-soup in the pond would really stink up any part of the house it gets into.

I also put in a lawn pump and ran a line well back to a hose bib in the woods in case any brush fires get too close to the house.
Lou

Brettski,

Like h2ofwlkillr stated, the fire department in my area told me a dry hydrant is not necessary. I like Theo's $.02 on hydrant installation.

I don't know if this is still relavent or not but when my dad, many years ago, was on the volunteer fire department, they used to use the tanker truck to get water and take it to the fires. The tanker truck got its water from any source available, whether that was a pond, lake, county drain, etc... In other words they didn't need a dry hydrant. They just ran a hose from the tanker truck to the water source and sucked the water out. The end of the hose did have a screen on it but that was it. No Hydrant needed.

It would be nice if we had a current expert from a (semi)rural FD to chirp in. But things could still differ from place to place around the country - probably do.

Thanx for checkin' in...
The "no hydrant required" idea works good until you have ice. As much as I think that I should be able to limit my house fires to warmer temps, that's not the way my life usually goes (thank you, Murphy).
I do know that some of the finer points of installation limit pipe bends to the use of 45 degree max elbows. This way, if the fitting jams, is frozen, or whatever, they can cut it off and still slip a suction hose down thru the 6" PVC piping to reach the water level.
Until further notice, I see myself adding this feature to my project. If it's going to be done, now is the time.

Well, things have changed for me in this regard. Fire chief (close friend of mine) asked if I would install one. Fed's will pay half, and district will pay half...no cost to me as long as I allow them access. Easy money for me.

Insurance agent says it will now drop my fire rating at least one step. I was at a 3 for years, and they raised me to a nine this past year. It was thier mistake, but a 3 basically had my property directly adjacent to a fully paid department. My house sits a mile outside city limits, and the FD is about 3 miles away...this may save me about $150/year.

Gotta download those forms right now...

Good for you, Matt!
So, what are the limits of "access"? We all want to help a neighbor in need, so emergency water access is a good reason. What are the other definitions of access? They may be looking for a nice place to have the Firemen's picnic... :p

Just a quick note from a pond owner and a Fire Chief. Theo said it best. You have to have a road to the hydrant strong enough to handle a heavy truck. Fires happen in bad weather. Dry hydrants are nice only if they are installed right and maintained. My department has used them and they worked fine. In my area, we have city water now and only have a small area that does not. Its up to you. Yes, some insurance companies do give deductions. My rule of thumb is if you can not get a house fire out with about 2000-4000 gallons of water, you will not be saving much. Most department carry that much on their first assignment. Last week we had a fire in 30 mph wind. We worked very hard to save a small end of the house. This saved the family alot of old family memories.

so Tom...
your message is (?): yes, a dry hydrant is a good idea in an area without public water, provided it is accessible on a very firm road and the hydrant is maintained.

I also installed a dry hydrant at the urging of the local fire chief. Their trucks only hold 1000 gallons and I understand that is pretty standard for fire trucks. He told me the 1000 gallons won't put out a camp fire, so if you value your home, better put one in. I had to make sure the fittings were consistent with the townships machinery, and the end in the pond had to be screened to prevent stuff from getting in. Ironically, the 1000 gallons isn't used for the fire, they back flush the hydrant with this water to blow any growth on the screen off, before they draw the water off for use. The only problems I've had so far is the hydrant is about 30 feet higher than the pond. It takes all the power the truck has to draw it up the 30 feet. If you have any pressure head to deal with, be forewarned.

When I put the hydrant in, I contacted my house insurance company and my premium went down about $200.

Why type of pipe do you have to use from the pond to the dry hydrant? Is there any chance they could suck hard enough to collapse the pipe?

Schedule 40 PVC. Most dry hydrants around here are 6", but some of the longer (horizontal) runs are put in with 8" to have less flow loss.

I don't think there's any chance of this collapsing, as it is what the local rural FD's recommend.

ditto Theo's response, based on all I have read and researched. 6" sched 40 seems to be the norm/avg. Take heed of the 45 degree fitting thought if you haven't already...it makes good sense.