Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain New pond middle TN: establishing food chain?

This is obviously really important. I'll talk with Jones Monday about their exact fish planting day- of- delivery procedure and see what they say. fwiw: I talked with someone from the local Univ. of TN agricultural college- recommended to me by TN fish& wildlife and he was very helpful; recommended a couple of fish farms that he says are quite reliable and they use them all the time. However, neither of these two fish farms have SBS, tilapia, YP; very limited selection. Essentially BG / LMB et al. Everybody has forage fish in abundance. For that matter, neither did Trophy Pond, a very large operation that serves ponds/lakes up to 20 acres+. Jones has everything. Interesting.

[My advice is know your fish supplier. Most all have their own methods of transporting and holding fish for resale that are the reasons why I utilize my homemade fish rinse system.[/quote]

I'll make sure I do my homework on this and act as necessary. And, I'll 100% act on your warnings to REMIND them at every juncture.

This is obviously really important. I'll talk with Jones Monday about their exact fish planting day- of- delivery procedure and see what they say. fwiw: I talked with someone from the local Univ. of TN agricultural college- recommended to me by TN fish& wildlife and he was very helpful; recommended a couple of fish farms that he says are quite reliable and they use them all the time. However, neither of these two fish farms have SBS, tilapia, YP; very limited selection. Essentially BG / LMB et al. Everybody has forage fish in abundance. For that matter, neither did Trophy Pond, a very large operation that serves ponds/lakes up to 20 acres+. Jones has everything. Interesting.


[1. Back on Feb 20 you said "”4) YP sound like great option, however not legal in Tennessee for stocking. If you have suggestions for acquiring them, that would be great.””
Yellow Perch
Not sure where you got that information about YP as illegal in TN......Page 8 for species recommended to not stock. Not recommended although not illegal.]


Guess I misunderstood the issue on this. Yes, YP are definitely "legal" in TN. But when I asked Jones about getting YP, they said they are not allowed to stock them in TN. So that might be more Ohio regulation-based. Regardless, I don't see that anyone else has them available....not sure where I'd get them, but in any case, you say below that it's probably not a good plan for me to stock them anyway.


[For your goals I would initially stay with the minnow, SBS and for the predator use HSB as the easiest species to manage and the best species to overall grow well in an all natural food based small TN pond. SBS are much better adapted to grow large compared to YP in TN. Claims are made that the SBS can grow up to 3 lbs which is a huge sunfish. If you can grow SBS to 12” and 2lbs you are doing very well for a ¼ ac pond. You will get praise. My test sample of SBS grew to 8” in just one year. The test is ongoing. I expect 10” at a full 2yrs old.]

Sounds good....definitely learning towards your suggestion of HSB as the big predator in the pond, and to your advice on which fish to focus on.


2. Added Water.
Outside water can be okay for adding to the pond IF it is filtered at the discharge through 500 um mesh also called a proper mesh sized filter sock. Creek water when running clear with low nutrient concentrations can be very okay if properly filtered......

Moot point, as I get what you're saying and I'm going to proceed on the assumption that ANY outside water contains an element of risk and it's better to avoid it entirely. I'll rely on the rains.


[Another important water to not add to the swimming pond is the fish transport water.........Do a water rinse for ALL added fish........


Gonna try to be rigorous in all of this.


[3. Vegetation.
Educate yourself to pros and cons of vegetation species that can be beneficial for a pond. And then ask questions on this forum........
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=440475#Post440475]

I've got quite the reading list going......important stuff. And I WILL ask questions.


[4. Tilapia –

Do your best to reduce amount of algae before getting tilapia. Try to find and buy a smelt dipping net........By reducing the amount of algae in spring pre-TP, the new stockers don't have to 'play a big catch up' to get the algae problem under control.]

Sounds logical. I do like the idea of Tilapia in the pond, depending on how things go w/the algae.....sounds like it would work out, but we'll see.



[5. Unwanted Fish.
’’””Unwanted fish: not sure how to avoid this risk, except to go with a respected/trustworthy vendor.”

Uninvited fish are IMO a major problem for those that have spent lots of careful effort planning the pond fishery. Reproducing unwanted fish can be a definite long term problem in a pond.......

This is what I would advise for those new small pond owners who do not want to get unwanted fish.......1. Be sure to tell the fish farm employee when ordering your fish that it is important to not get unwanted fish mixed into your order. Tell them their reputation is at stake here. Be present if fish are delivered......repeat your request of no mixed species.....tell them this is important to you..........fish net.....fish rinse.....]

GOT IT.


[Fish Sources]

I'll be doing lots of research on this, including their specific process in planting the fish.

Thanks Bill....as always.

Please keep us updated in this thread as to your pond conditions as they progress in the future. I am always interested in how well my advice works toward good pond management - Pros and Cons - learning is learning.

As far as Jones not delivering and stocking YP in TN this could be a TN state allowing only fish are properly state approved tested. Some states are particular about their regulations. Another option is YP as orders for TN ponds are so few it it just not profitable to haul so few of them to TN.

Hand painted BG are not hybrids and will reproduce same as BG. Offspring will be a mixture of BG and various versions of handpainted color pattern. IMO They are not the fish for a 1/4 ac swimming pond.

I agree. Just saying that because if the OP (original poster) wanted RES, like you said, they need to be sorted to make durn sure there are no regular BG in there.

I like the RES/HSB mix for a swimming pond, and I'd make sure there were forage fish in there - i.e. Fatheads and maybe Golden Shiners because if the fish are not fed pellets, I don't know if the RES will produce enough to feed the HSB, and also the HSB and RES typically utilize different areas of the pond. HSB/GSH swim in the same area of the pond, so the GSH would be utilized more as prey than the RES.

If "they're in a pond w/other fish," how does a customer make sure they're getting ONLY the HPB??? Doesn't inspire much confidence. They are a BIG operation; they do 20 acres+ ponds....my little podunk 1/4 acre job probably didn't interest them much. I talked to the owner, it would have been $1350 for a 1/2 hr. consult, $24K/week for construction. I'm sure they know what they're doing, expert at the work, but I looked elsewhere.

Yeah, they certainly don't sound like what I need. But point remains (unless I'm missing something): aren't fish farms supposed to be able to sell EXACTLY what the customer requests (though I'm guessing sometimes that is difficult to guarantee, especially w/fingerlings?)

That's stuff I need to know.....kind of thing I'll be observing/studying carefully once I'm at that stage. Advice here was that I should go for maybe 3-4" fingerlings, as they'll be easier to identify/differentiate in terms of not winding up w/regular BG....yes?

I bought 400 RES , drove 300 miles for them, to go in my SMB and YP pond . I was over run with snails. 2-3" stockers , a year later I was over run BG and GSF. Today, I wouldn't purchase RES under 5", just my 2 cents. Going to cost much more than 2 cents to correct.
I assumed, that they would deliver what I paid for.

Forum Question:

Is it proper forum etiquette to name the seller in this type of situation?


If so, would you (FA) care to name the seller considering that you are in this as a business?

(These are not rhetorical questions or commentary. I truly do not know the correct rules. However, it does suck to ruin a nice SMB-YP pond.)

I am not sure about proper etiquette of naming a seller. If words are the truth and not just a matter of opinion then what is wrong with the truth? True Facts remain the facts not opinion or an idea.

"If "they're in a pond w/other fish," how does a customer make sure they're getting ONLY the HPB?"

This is a difficult topic. As I know it there are no guarantees nor warranties in the fish delivery / selling business for pond stocking. This is why one has to be careful who one does business with and trust the seller to do the right thing. Mistakes can easily happen in the live fish selling business, I have had those types of mistakes happen to me which is why I mention or list precautions when buying your fish if it is important to you to not get unwanted fish.

We are dealing with live fish. Live fish can be moved around by 'Mother Nature'. If one has the wrong species soon show up in a pond, the seller can say a bird brought them into the pond or have some other excuse such as a neighbor added some free fish for you. Both are not impossible to happen. Many pond owners do not get too concerned if a couple of the wrong species show up in the pond after stocking. Proving the problem was with the seller is IMO pretty difficult. This is why I think it is IMPORTANT to let the seller know that you do not want unwanted fish in your order. Let the seller know his reputation is at stake on the national widely used Pond Boss Forum. Plus you have to pick a good fish seller and trust him especially for certain fish species and sizes that you are buying.

Another very good option is to hand sort the fish that you buy. Know what that species looks like and how it is recognized. Do your homework. Do not take the fish delivery for granted if pure species are required. Take some precautions. Buying lots of fish makes hand sorting more difficult and time consuming and often not practical. Again buy your fish form very reputable fish farms and even they can make a mistake. Risky business.

Another option as was already mentioned buy the larger sized fish that are more easily recognized by the fish seller and hopefully yourself. Common distinctly featured fish such as LMB, SMB, catfish, HSB, yellow perch, koi, crappie, golden shiner are all pretty easily recognizable. Difficult to recognize fish are the sunfishes and some minnow species. FHM are pretty easily recognizable after you see and compare body coloration and pattern from a few hundred of them. Most difficult to correctly identify even for many farm new type workers at the fish farm are the small sunfishes such as RES, BG, HBG, and now specklebelly hybrid bluegill (BGXRES). I know of some fish farms who grow their own hybrid bluegill (HBG). A HBG does not have to be the first generation of the bluegill X green sunfish cross called F1. HBG can reproduce in mom and pop fish ponds and the offspring as of F2 or F3 generation could be unethically sold as a HBG.

Bill:

I hand sorted HBG that were going into a pond and pulled 4 BG from the batch. I did the same with the RES that went into the pond and 3 years down the road the owner catches what looks to be pure Northern Bluegill from the pond that are over 8" long. If I let enough BG slip through the cracks to create a reproducing population in a pond then a person that doesn't see 10's of thousands of fish a year would have an even harder time.

These were 1"-2.5" sized RES and HBG. For me, a HBG is easy to tell from a BG, even at that size. A BG mixed in with RES at that size is WAY harder (for me) to tell for sure what is what.

If stocking the larger fish. Does that change your stocking plan?

Instead of stocking 500 fingerling BG would you change that to ??? of the 4-5" version?

I wouldn’t stock any one inch fish. I consider them too fragile. My personal preference is 2-3 inch.

esshup (and any other fish suppliers, or managers that frequently deal with fish suppliers),

I know you would only source fish from a supplier that you trusted. When you were sorting fish to get the right species, was the mixture of fish in a batch you got from a supplier, or were they from fish you collected yourself from a multi-species pond?

More general question: When members report getting some undesired fish species mixed in with their purchases, is that due to sloppy protocols by the fish supplier (at either their facilities or transport operations), or will fish get out of their designated spaces - at even the most diligent fish suppliers?

As far as I know there is no agency regulation of these farms regarding having the correct species in an order.
Some background info and history.
I am a small time fish supplier who usually buys fish from local small fish farms and not the big AK fish farms. My local suppliers usually buy fa lot of their fish from the big AR suppliers. Now there are some fish suppliers who have numerous ponds and one I know who farms 230 ac of water. Most all of your local fish farms even the 230 ac farmer get at least some of their fish such as CC and grass carp from Big AR farms. Some local farms will shop around and buy wild raised minnows from big WI/MN suppliers that often have contaminated fish such as sticklebacks or others in with the large minnow wholesale order. When they they run out of stock they also by fingerlings where ever they can get them.

Some farms with ponds owned or leased have fish they grow themselves or hold fish for a time in their own ponds. These instances are likely the most common way species such as the various sunfish varieties get mixed into customers orders. When harvesting fish for resale there are numerous ways different species can get mixed into an order. Numerous ways. And as I noted previously and mentioned, IMO this collecting, handling, and sorting is where the unwanted specie/s most often get mixed into an order. It is a prevalent ongoing problem in my experience mostly for the sunfish varieties due to when these sunfish are small, at times they all look very similar. And as I noted earlier IMO some or numerous fish farms do not think this is a big deal nor a big problem. Pond fish are pond fish correct? So what,,,, if you get a couple of the wrong fish in a large 200-1000 fish order?. Buying pond fish can be like buying expensive watches from a street vendor. KNOW YOUR SUPPLIER for the best results and even then there are no guarantees.

Thanks for the background Dr. Perca!

The fish came from a large fish supplier in AR and it was a direct trip from their facility to the pond. I had not had a problem with this particular supplier previously, and none since, but in ponds where not having a certain species is the goal, I normally do a check anyway when stocking fish in the pond. This particular pond had a BUNCH of fish going in it. I know we stocked 100# of FHM, and 100# GSH in the Fall, then the panfish in the Spring.

This particular pond was renovated over a 2 year period and the owner had us come in and rotenone the pond because he was worried that he had some unwanted fish in it. He did. I can't tell you how many Green Sunfish and Yellow Bullheads were in the remaining 24"-36" of water that was in the pond. He had pumped the pond dry to work on it and it was barely wet for almost 2 years. How did they survive? Your guess is as good as mine.

I will have to go back in my records to see how many fish we stocked and will make another post. But from memory, the 4 BG that were found in the HBG batch of fish was at the most 1/10th of 1 percent of the HBG that were stocked, and it could have even been a much smaller percentage.

It could be either of the two things that you listed, if a huge rain event happens and one pond overflows to another things will happen. Sometimes the overflow might be short lived and it wasn't noticed. Bill talked about a place that has 230 acres of water. The supplier that I got the fish from is a very large supplier and I really don't know how many acres of water they have to grow fish in. The smaller place that I go to has 1,500 acres of water that they grow fish in if that gives you an idea of the scope of the size of the operations in Arkansas.......

The ponds aren't ALL side by side, they lease or own property scattered all over and while they try to visit the ponds frequently, there aren't enough bodies to visit all the ponds on a daily basis. These ponds are anywhere from 1 to 20 acres in size.

My bad order of RES came from a well known supplier in the Ok,Ar.Tx. Area. I could have thrown a fit, but when I figured out the SNAFU , through this forum and at same time scratching my head as to why my RES didn't have red ears , it was a year down the road. I knew they could blame, ducks, herons, bucket stockers, fish swimming up stream and jumping a twenty foot water fall, etc,etc.
I won't sully their name, starting a Pxxxxxg contest, especially one that can't be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yes it sucks, I share my experience with other newbies as I am, and I was really was. I also forgive their mistake, but I learned not to do business with them again. I offer my experience to other Newbies, so they can learn from my mistake.

I'm trapping out all GSF and BG under 9" that I can, asking my customers to remove all of the same when caught, hoping to grow some really nice BG and GSF for my fly fisherman, and looking forward to Saugeye , as soon as available . Proverbial Lemonade from Lemons. Replace my Walleye with better growing Saugeye , hopefully big BG and GSF . With heavy cover, SF minimized best I can, hopefully YP can go ahead and do well.

To finish, IDK how long it would have taken to understand what had happened without this forum. 1) Others relating issues with contaminated fish orders and 2) All of the images of SF, requesting help with ID. Wow, what a lesson. Thank you, everyone for knowledge and experience shared. God Bless each of you.

[quote=Fishingadventure] Yes it sucks, I share my experience with other newbies as I am, and I was really was. I also forgive their mistake, but I learned not to do business with them again. I offer my experience to other Newbies, so they can learn from my mistake.

Yes, and one of those newbies would be MYSELF, so it's appreciated. To me, the overall take-away is that one cannot be too careful in the process....thus Bill's admonitions to use the most reputable supplier you can find, remind them repeatedly that the sorting is VERY important to you- and second: try to be hands-on as possible during the process to verify you're getting just what you asked for.

And along w/all the rest of you, about 1000 other things....such as opting for larger-sized forage fish, not 1-2" fingerlings......

And the realistic take-away that even w/the best of intentions/effort, some wily rascals will still probably slip by....all one can do is try to minimize these as much as possible.

BJNick and those interested in this thread. I would like to put some of those people that work for fish farms in perspective of their fishery knowledge.
One of my clients went to a nearby Home & Garden show in Indiana last weekend. My client who has a 1/2 ac pond and a GSF problem with YP stopped and talked to someone at the Jones 'booth'. Maybe the someone was a "biologist"?. My client explained his fish problem and my client told the guy I (BCody) arranged to get and stock one 14" SMB into the pond to hopefully help reduce numbers of GSF. Our plan is to if needed stock 1 LMB and then gradually add HSB as we monitor numbers of GSF and YP over the next few years. I have a 0.1ac test pond with a shore line containing large rock. This pond had lots of invader GSF with my perch as the test fish. I added some SMB, and did regular trapping and removal of GSF as I fed them to the SMB and after a year this has significantly reduced the GSF. Coincidence? Maybe. Note for later - the SMB stockers reproduced in 2nd yr as 2023 when I saw a few new SMB fingerlings.

Background: at this point in time my client and I do not want same sex predators that are reproducing in his pond to over eat the YP offspring, yet hopefully just gradually reduce numbers of GSF and YP. Note the pond has 8 pellet raised walleye in it with a good reproducing minnow population inhabiting the pond containing a moderate amount of hybrid water lilies and some red tipped eelgrass.

Back to Home & Garden Show and Jones representative. Jones rep said to put in more smallmouth bass from them because they would not reproduce.

Every pond where I have stocked SMB they have reproduced each year. I even had SMB reproduce in my own clay bottom pond as my first stocking experience back in 1991 with SMB -YP- FHM, GSH, BNM management. I pellet trained my own SMB who then grew to 5 lbs in this 0.3ac test pond. It is pretty difficult to stop SMB from reproducing in a pond even a small 1/4ac pond that has good habitat. Dr. Willis fish professor at SDSU regularly noted that SMB will often over populate in a pond.

Story take away - be careful to not believe everything that a fish farm worker tells you. IMO get a second or third opinion before going to the "bank" with your new pond management information.

Yeah, I get it. In fact a few days ago I called SEPOND and asked for their take on what I should get. I said specifically: I want a SWIMMING/FISHING pond....the best balance/compromise I can get. Immediately he suggested BG. That kind of made me doubt anything else he said, since everyone who "knows" the issues w/swimming ponds, has told me STAY AWAY FROM BG for the obvious reason that they tend to be nippers.

Jones: the problem is, there aren't that many fish farms "around" that have exactly what I need/want; many have very restricted fish breeds; just the "standard" that everyone else has: FHM, GSH, BG, RES, LMB, GC. Jones has the widest selection (at very reasonable prices, it seems) of anyone. So at this point, my strategy would be to consult with all you on the forum, know exactly what I want, and get exactly that from them.....along with following Bill's (and others') guidelines/tips on getting your order RIGHT.

However....and this is a BIG however....it's mid-March right now, and chances are I won't be stocking for at least a few months....so there's time. Time for me to locate other farms/opportunities/suppliers, and time for me to increase my knowledge of the whole process.

BJNick - Are you planning on having Jones deliver or are you going to pick the fish up at their Branch facility during their fish sales days? If they have what you want the first stocking could be just minnow species and or some (several or 1/2) specklebelly and next year add the other fish and rest of speckebellies. Lot of options are available. For your new pond I would at least plan on at stocking several Tilapia (2-3lbs) to keep the algae and early growth submerged vegetation controlled for good swimming. New ponds almost always gets noticeable filamentous algae the first summer season. Tilapia stocked in May will be big enough to get some fun angling done in the Fall of September early Oct before the water temps drop below 70F; watch the water temperatures for fishing timing.

Well, the order comes directly from Ohio (not from their Nashville outlet), they've told me that- so they'd deliver it. I just talked to them yesterday about some of the issues you and others have raised: primarily, making sure no unwanted fish get included in the order. He said all fish are raised in their own specific ponds, not combined w/any other fish, and checked again when delivering. He stressed that they never have issues w/people complaining of unwanted fish; take that for what it's worth.


They are out of SBS for this year. Don't know any other suppliers who have them, but again: I have time....I think....gonna be a few months till I'm ready to stock; aiming for fall....we'll see.

Stocking: Sounds like a good plan, but probably for the following year, I'd imagine, as I won't be stocking till at least fall.....pond at this point is only about 3/4 of the way constructed.

Question: the pond construction process is fascinating....and quite involved, as my particular location requires intensive blasting through solid rock. Is it okay/productive to post images on the PB Forum of the pond as it's being constructed?

Jones IS good about not having unwanted fish in their mix. But the "All fish are raised in their own specific ponds" may or may not be 100% true. If you consider buying fish, putting them in your pond, feeding them for a length of time (short or long) "raising fish", then the statement is correct.

Next time you talk to them, bring up the "all fish are raised in their own specific ponds" and ask them if all the fish that they sell are hatched and raised from eggs in their ponds. If they say no, then you could ask for clarification on their "all fish are raised in their own specific ponds" statement. If the guy says yes, that is interesting because they buy fish from some of the same suppliers that I do.

It may mean that they don't mix species in their ponds, which is how they are supposed to be raised.