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Hello everyone I was wondering what you guys thought about a yellow perch, small mouth and pumpkinseed pond? My pond is a .4 acre B shaped ground water pond, fluctuates in depth but is about 15' deep in one spot and 12' (has aeration). I had a couple of questions first was I planning on putting some FHM in there this fall. Then next spring stock the YP followed by the PS and SMB in the fall. My thought was I would like the YP to get some size on them to make sure they can take care of the PS when they spawn. Am I on the right tract?

My second concern is I have 3 young kids and this is supposed to be a swimming pond with some fish in it not a fishing pond that you can swim in. Will the PS become bitters like I have heard BG can be? I do have a decent amount so snails in my pond and was hoping these guys could fill the spot of RES as we can not have those in my state. I appreciate any input you guys have.

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I think it's a fine idea.

Look into spawning structures for the SMB and YP if you would like to ensure self-sustaining populations.

I don't think PS have a reputation as nibblers, but some folks will know for sure.


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Weird. Keystone Hatchery says that they are illegal to stock in Wisconsin, but according to the Wi. DNR they can be imported into the state.

"The Non-native Fish Importation application and general permit [PDF] is required to import fish or fish eggs of a species that is not native to this state for the purpose of rearing in a fish farm under s. 29.735, Wisconsin Statutes. This general permit only allows the import of fish species defined by s. NR 40.02 (30), Wis. Adm. Code, as “non-native fish species in the aquaculture industry,” which are arctic char, Atlantic salmon, brown trout, Chinook salmon, coho salmon, rainbow trout, pink salmon, redear sunfish, tiger trout, and tilapia. There is no fee for the general permit. You must request an individual permit if you intend to import a species of fish not listed here or for purposes other than rearing in a fish farm."


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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esshup,

Does the term "fish farm" mean the non-native species can only be imported by people pursuing commercial fish operations?

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Sound like a fun pond, Blest!

I am not sure how prolific the PS will be. We have them down here in some of the reservoirs I fish, but they seem to be out-competed by the BG and GSF for the most part.

If the PS do get overpopulated, you might be able to put in a few female-only LMB if you had confidence in correctly sexing them. Or maybe a few walleye or HSB. If you were forced to correct with a few of a larger top predator, that might also cull some of your desired YP, but I wouldn't think it would have too much effect on your SMB population if they were well established?

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If SMB are a desired species, then you might not want to add any LMB, however, as Rod suggests, sexing them could be a mitigating factor. Further, SMB and LMB can cross-breed.

Do we know if Pumpkinseed eat snails?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Pumpkinseed is a very common and native fish in WI. No problem for those in WI to buy them from a farm or harvest some from local lakes. Since PS will readily eat snails the adult PS "might" nibble on dark spots such as moles and nipples on an idle swimmer. The dark spots would be mistaken as a snail. PS should stay well away from constant physically active swimmers. Sunbathing and dangling appendages in the water on a floatie might be risky business with hungry PS around.

Several members here on PB have stocked YP, PS and SMB. No real negative feedback to my knowledge has occurred with this combination. In my experience do not expect adult YP to do a lot for controlling numbers of young PS. YP would prefer to eat small slender perch and minnows compared to can lid shaped PS. However at certain times during the year (winter) YP would eat some young of year PS.

I Suggest that you make a concerted effort to stock pellet trained YP who will grow faster and bigger than untrained perch. Feeding the YP pellets will reduce the chances of getting stunted Perch as they can always find food by eating pellets. As with your plan, I also suggest that you stock 2-4 lbs of fatheads this fall or next Spring with the perch. Pellet trained YP will eat more pellets than small FHM and this allows a strong minnow population to develop all summer before the SMB. As the pond ages monitor the SMB recruitment and adjust their numbers based on numbers of small perch and PS (both 1.5"-3") that are present each fall and Spring. You may need to periodically use some minnow or fish traps to help SMB control small PS & YP so they don't become over crowded and growth of each is good.

If the SMB need some help controlling smaller YP/PS you can add just ONE LMB that will eat around 300-400 small fish per year; probably eating more numbers of small YP than PS due to shape of prey. "They" say LMB will cross with a SMB however I have never seen this happen in a pond habitat. If you can produce a SMB X LMB hybrid cross called a 'mean mouth' bass, these will be very valuable fish that you could sell for several dollars each. Meanmouth bass are very rare and gather premium dollars when sold. No hatchery sells them which is a strong indication that these fish are very difficult to produce at a fish farm.

Please return periodically and keep us updated as to your pond's progress. We always want to learn more about the PS, YP, SMB stocking combination.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/27/23 08:44 AM.

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Very interesting info on Meanmouths, Bill. Hmmmmm.


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Theo says - "Very interesting info on Meanmouths, Bill. Hmmmmm." Yes it is obviously pretty difficult and challenging for the average Fish Farm to grow meanmouth bass. If it were relatively simple, one could buy them for pond stocking. IMO the demand is present, the supply is non-existent. F1 generation meanmouth bass are rare 'freaks' of nature.

Apparently a hybrid meanmouth produced by smallmouth and spotted bass are more common than a meanmouth from smallmouth X largemouth parents (see info in link). I think this is due to more similar habitat preferences and spawning behavior of spotted bass and smallmouth bass compared to that of largemouth and smallmouths. Spawning timing and behavior is enough different for LMB and SMB that causes reasons why they have more natural reproductive isolation compared to spots and smallies.

FYI - https://shopkarls.com/blog/meanmouth-bass

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/27/23 08:41 AM.

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I recall we had a forum member who was having SMB x LMB crosses in his pond, but this was quite some time ago. I can't remember who it was though. I also don't know if it was verified or just suspected.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Spotted bass and SMB are more closely related to each other (by DNA analysis) than either is to LMB (IIRC).


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Originally Posted by Sunil
I recall we had a forum member who was having SMB x LMB crosses in his pond, but this was quite some time ago. I can't remember who it was though. I also don't know if it was verified or just suspected.

I asked about meanmouth bass in someone else's SMB post.

SMB Thread - Pond Boss

Snipe responded that he had seen both types of meanmouth bass (LMBxSMB and Spotted bassxSMB) in a large Kansas reservoir near his location.

(I believe he may help the state fishery biologists perform shock surveys on the state reservoirs, so he gets to observe LOTS of fish.)

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Rod, the 'meanmouth' mention I was referring to was probably over 10 years ago, maybe more.

But as the thread you posted echoes, if SMB are a desired species, it's probably best to leave out LMB.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
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BlestFarm - I sent you a Private Message with some optional stocking information.


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FishinRod mentioned WE. They should be good at controlling perch numbers and are native to WI, and loved for eating. They also will not reproduce in a small pond. Would adding a few be a practical approach?

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See this short discussion series from 2016 about meanmouth bass.
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436550

If Bill D. sees this he might give us an update about having both LMB and SMB in his pond? Does anyone have contact information for Bill D? Is he seeing any hybrid meanmouths???

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I find this interesting in that our KS guys refer to both LMBxSMB and SPBxSMB as "Meanmouth". It has been said to me that the spot/smallie is very common compared to LMB/SMB. 3 years ago I extracted an unknown individual that we could not confirm, Bio had me haul it home and "see how it turned out".. We know after many pics and a fin clip, it's a SPBxSMB.
I see good and bad with these, SPBxSMB will never be anything more than either parent but LMBxSMB could be an issue if out-breeding depression occurs to any degree, I don't know for sure. It would be interesting to see some confirmed crosses and then keep records of the ratios of fish and what happens over a 5-6 yr period.

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Dr. Perca. Check the Mod's thread.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Thanks for the information guys will most defiantly come back and update after stocking the pond. This forum is a great place.

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I contacted Bill D who has a 0.5 ac pond where he stocked SMB and LMB. Bill said he has not caught a smallie in two years and no evidence of meanmouth bass hybrids. I think the reproductive behavior of these two species is the main factors that keep them from creating hybrids. Meanmouths of SMB X LMB are apparently a very rare occurrence and with a very slim chance of it to happen in a small pond. However I never say never when dealing with fish and other pond critters.

ewest posted this genetic association of the the sunfish family. Note the closeness or genetic similarity of the SMB (M. dolomieu) and spotted bass (M.punctulatus) and the genetic material of largemouth (Micropterus salmoides) was distant and genetically remote from the SMB and Spotted bass.
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=450411

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/01/23 07:26 PM.

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Originally Posted by Bill Cody
I contacted Bill D who has a 0.5 ac pond where he stocked SMB and LMB. Bill said he has not caught a smallie in two years and no evidence of meanmouth bass hybrids. I think the reproductive behavior of these two species is the main factors that keep them from creating hybrids. Meanmouths of SMB X LMB are apparently a very rare occurrence and with a very slim chance of it to happen in a small pond. However I never say never when dealing with fish and other pond critters.


A customer has a pond where we stocked 50 LMB in it and nobody was supposed to have fished in it for about 4 years. I saw 2 LMB follow a lure to the shore that were about 4# each. Then the owner decided to stock SMB in there. No visible signs of any hybridization, there are just SMB in there now.


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Thanks for the link, Dr. Perca!

I did not know that SMB and spotted bass were more closely related to each other than to LMB.

I know many long-time bass fisherman that cannot distinguish between LMB and spotted bass.

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Originally Posted by esshup
A customer has a pond where we stocked 50 LMB in it and nobody was supposed to have fished in it for about 4 years. I saw 2 LMB follow a lure to the shore that were about 4# each. Then the owner decided to stock SMB in there. No visible signs of any hybridization, there are just SMB in there now.

What happened to the LMB? The more typical story on Pond Boss is that after stocking LMB, the SMB in the pond slowly disappear.

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Originally Posted by FishinRod
Originally Posted by esshup
A customer has a pond where we stocked 50 LMB in it and nobody was supposed to have fished in it for about 4 years. I saw 2 LMB follow a lure to the shore that were about 4# each. Then the owner decided to stock SMB in there. No visible signs of any hybridization, there are just SMB in there now.

What happened to the LMB? The more typical story on Pond Boss is that after stocking LMB, the SMB in the pond slowly disappear.

We think someone snuck in there and fished them out. I also saw a CC about 24" swimming in there and I personally had every single fish in my hand that was stocked (and looked closely at). Another pond on the property had 2 LMB show up suddenly, each 14" long which just happens to be the minimum size that one can keep from a public BOW. So, bucket stocking is/was going on. HBG also showed up at all ponds when none were stocked, and in the case of 2 of the ponds, no BG were stocked either. Just RES and YP, along with SMB. It's a good 1/2 mile walk to any house in the area through the woods.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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Originally Posted by esshup
We think someone snuck in there and fished them out. I also saw a CC about 24" swimming in there and I personally had every single fish in my hand that was stocked (and looked closely at). Another pond on the property had 2 LMB show up suddenly, each 14" long which just happens to be the minimum size that one can keep from a public BOW. So, bucket stocking is/was going on. HBG also showed up at all ponds when none were stocked, and in the case of 2 of the ponds, no BG were stocked either. Just RES and YP, along with SMB. It's a good 1/2 mile walk to any house in the area through the woods.


Dang it, I thought you were giving out some information about cross-species competition. Instead, it was another post about a$$hole trespassers!

Reading your description of the pond management efforts on the property, your client has spent tens of thousands of dollars on his fish, only to have miscreants thwart his goals. mad


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