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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Originally posted by Bruce Condello: I guess I should ask--are you feeding? Yes, we feed. This is our third season with this pond, and we've been feeding since we bought this property. This year the bluegill started coming up for food about the 2nd week of April. Monday thru Thursday, we hand feed every evening just after the sun goes behind the mountain (about an hour before "real" sunset). Since about the middle of May, we've been feeding about 1/2 pound each time. On most Fridays through Sunday, we also put out another half-pound around 7:00 AM. This is a half-acre pond. We now have about four LMB joining the evening feeding frenzy. One is about 11 inches, and the other three are 8-9 inches. They are really a lot of fun to watch, because they act like the pellets are dragon flies above the water. One or two of the smaller ones likes to dance on his tail. Getting most of the big catfish out, starting the "Condello Monster Blugill Plan," dropping in a bunch of white pine around the shoreline, and seriously thinning the stunted bass, has resulted in huge numbers of forage bluegill and bass -- which I worry about a little bit. But, the formerly stunted and skinny bass have turned into fat eating machines that sure look healthy. It is a lot of fun to watch them in the evenings, as they just about beach themselves while chasing the forage. No trophy bass, but lots of really great looking 9 to 14 inchers, and one 18 incher who will become dinner next time he gets on a line. The pond had a lot of crappie, and a fair number of RES the first year we had the pond. We kept every crappie, and some of the RES. Somehow, all the RES and crappie completely disappeared. I am wondering what happened to them.
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Originally posted by Theo Gallus: Originally posted by george: AQMX 600 feed program – don’t want the small gills to get feed trained, thus the larger pellets. That sounds logical, george. I have noticed, however, that the smaller the BG I'm feeding, the bigger the pellet they try to eat. Anyone else notice this? Maybe my BG are completely illogical. theo, back in march before i started grinding up the AQMX 600, they would swarm the pellets and work on them until they saturated and broke up, but a couple would get the whole thing down their gullet. i think a couple of my smaller BG died from inhaling the entire pellets. now (June) the 6-inch GSF get them all before the smaller BG can work on them, i call em "my little fattys" all's fair in fishin.....as long as yer fishin.....to be sure George
GSF are people too!
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Research just for you BG lovers. Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 1979 Growth Rates and Temperature Selection of Bluegill, Lepomis macrochirus THOMAS L. BEITINGER 1 AND JOHN J. MAGNUSON Laboratory of Limnolog'y, University of Wisconsin Madison, Wisconsin 53706 Abstract Growth rates of individual juvenile bluegills fed 0.75, 2.0, 4.0, and 6.0% dry body weight day -t and ad libitum at constant temperatures were smaller above (34 C) than within (30 or 31 C) or below (25 and 28 C) this species' preferred temperature range. For each feeding regime growth rate did not differ significantly at temperatures below 34 C. Our experiment evaluated the growth of pond-reared hybrid bluegills fed equal amounts of food either once or four times per day. We were particularly interested in reducing the size variation and increasing the percentage of harvestable-size fish (110 g). After 194 d, there was no significant effect of feeding frequency on growth, food conversion efficiency, size variation, or percentage of harvestable-size fish.
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Very interesting on there being no difference in growth from feeding frequency. It is hard for me to (hand) feed my BG more than once a day; I've decided this year I'm not going to try. Looks like it may be a moot point.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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I'm glad this thread is active again. I have had this thought in my head but was reluctant to bring it up because I didn't know if it has been discussed before or if it is really worth mentioning. Anyhow here it goes. As I understand from Bruce (and some others) that by keeping some of the largest male BG in your pond you suppress the sexual maturation of the younger male BG and make them reach a larger size before they start burning energy spawning (locker room effect ). My question is could the young BG be fooled by a decoy of a big male BG. Decoys are used in hunting all the time and are able to fool animals smarter than fish. I was thinking of a plastic decoy attached to a weight by some clear mono. The decoy would be suspended over a weight and maintain a natural level stance. The decoy would be a big male in full breeding color and several could be placed in the spawning area. It would need some algae resistant coating. Do you think this could fool the fish? I would think it would be best in a new stocked pond or a pond where the harvest of eating size BG is high. Maybe a cage experiment with one group penned up with a few decoys and another cage as a control group could be done and you could see if there is any difference in maturation. Has this ever been done before? Am I all wet on this idea? Don't hold back I can take it. Cecil seems like the ideal guy to develop the decoy and make it realistic. I am willing to volunteer Cecil's time and money if this idea has potential :rolleyes: . Besides if it works it could be a neat little side business. All kidding to Cecil aside I would like to hear opinions on this pro and con. Also if I am spending my time thinking about putting fake fish in a pond to intimidate real fish so they will grow bigger do I have some serious issues :rolleyes: ?
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
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I got a sawbuck that says the best looking decoy won't do it - I strongly suspect the maturation suppression is more chemical (like pheromones) than anything else.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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I think any male bluegill will challenge any other bigger male bluegill at least once. In real life the smaller bluegill will get his butt kicked, then back off. If the case of the decoy--no butt kickin', so the smaller bluegill wins and takes over the area. Consequently, I don't think the decoy works.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Me either as I think Theo and Bruce are on the money. Plus even if effective you would need a lot of decoys to suppress all those little males trying to act big. An all male pond would be a better option. But it is a good question as it makes us think about why BG act as they do and justify or reasons. There are no bad questions on this forum only ones that need to be answered after some thought about the subject !!! Questions are the life blood of this forum -- so please ask them - all of them and often.
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About six or seven years ago, perhaps around 1999, there was an excellent article on this "big bluegill keep little bluegill from maturing" issue in the State of Illinois conservation magazine. I have never subscribed to the magazine, don't even know it's name. Someone faxed me the article. The article seemed to have some very good research in it and I recall it was by a fishery biologist at the U Of I. If anyone has a way of checking that out it might be worthwhile. As I recall, the premise was that the smaller males were "impressed" at the larger ones selection of location, etc. and decided to hold off maturing until they got bigger. At the time I just laughed it off, but the more I read the more I believe larger ones keep the smaller ones from spawning. However I still have trouble believing it out of envy over the bigger fishes love nest. I remember making a copy of the story and sending it to Lusk, but that was many years ago.
Bing
"I love living. I have some problems with my life, but living is the best thing they've come up with so far." � Neil Simon,
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Ewest,
Sample sizes are awfully small in that study. Only five fish per sample?
What are actual starting sizes for the bluegills? Most of the studies I see for growth on bluegills are for small fish in small indoor tanks, which I question their relativity to larger fish in open waters.
Not trying trying to be adversarial as I always appreciate the data you post, but I'm naturally skeptical.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Cecil it is good to look with a skeptical eye. That is from 2 of several studies on the subject and they note many variables especially wrt ponds (such as natural food). I posted it because Bruce and or you ask about temp effects on growth rate. It covers that subject well. Even that I think would be subject to local genetic conditioning/variation. Looks like those samples were repeated and some were 12. Let me check the study on that point. I do think the growth rate at temp #s are right. It was not posted for the # of times and amounts of feed. That is better covered in the studies on compensatory feeding. Bing I have several studies on the subject you refer to. Not sure they are the exact same one. They are similar accross the board and state large male BG supress small male BG wrt spawning thus allowing the small ones to convert that energy to growth not early reproductive activity. Is this the one you were talking about? North American Journal of Fisheries Management 1997;17:516–524 Effect of Population Size Structure on Reproductive Investment of Male Bluegill MARTIN J. JENNINGS, JULIE E. CLAUSSEN, and DAVID P. PHILIPP Illionis Natural History Survey, Center for Aquatic Ecology, 607 East Peabody Drive, Champaign, Illinois 61820, USA Abstract.—Although a goal of fisheries management is to understand factors affecting the growth rate and size structure of exploited populations, the relation between growth rates and variation in reproductive behaviors in Lepomis species has received little attention. Allocation of energy to reproductive functions (e.g., gonadal maturation, gamete production, nesting and spawning activities, and brood defense) negatively affects growth rate and, ultimately, maximum body size. To assess how social factors influence energy allocation, we manipulated population size structure of male bluegills L. macrochirus in experimental ponds and evaluated individual reproductive behavior and testes development. We predicted that smaller parental males would invest less in reproduction in the presence of larger parental males than they would in their absence. Observations were consistent with this prediction; smaller parental males had smaller testes and nested less frequently in the presence of larger males than in their absence. Furthermore, when males of both size-groups occupied nests, larger males were more successful. Size-selective angling that removes larger males may, therefore, negatively affect the size structure of Lepomis populations by creating conditions under which smaller, and often younger fish, mature sexually and reproduce. Under those conditions, growth rates would slow at younger ages, and the maximum size attained by these fish would be reduced.
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Ewest: I don't think it is the same one. It really not matter much as I think most of the research that has been done documents the delay in maturity rather well, but does not have any proof for the reason. As I recall the study I referred to was conducted in waters around Charleston, IL, Coles County.
Bing
"I love living. I have some problems with my life, but living is the best thing they've come up with so far." � Neil Simon,
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I think that the reason is intuitive.
You can equate a bluegills big eartab and bright colors to a whitetail deer's rack. It's a demonstration of genetic fitness. It tells the female "Hey, look at me, I've got resources to spare. My genes are so good, and I'm so good at foraging that I can commit some of my extra energy into a pretty display. Mate with me and you'll have babies that have the same abundance of resources, and your genes will be carried on forever".
A smaller male bluegill doesn't have what it takes yet to make a nice display, or be a good fighter for nest space. Even if he finds a nice nest, the female probably won't choose him anyway because of the way he looks. Consequently he's going to take a chance, by not reproducing this year, and spend his time foraging heavily so he can have a better chance to pass on his genes next year.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Interestingly, interviews of human females lead one to believe that instead of eartabs and racks, women look at what car we drive, and what shoes we wear.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Whether its ear tabs , racks or possessions its all the same. Females are looking for providers and protectors for themselves and their offspring. Did I say that out loud?
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If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Here's what a CSBG looks like at 54 weeks. He's been in a lined pond and he's obviously matured a little bit. A little over 7 inches.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Here's another one.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Same fish (year class) from last fall.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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I caught a nice 7 1/2" male BG last night that looked a whole lot like that first CSBG out of the string pictured above, Bruce. He might be a tad older than 54 weeks - as I was putting him back in the pond, he mentioned he'd just applied for Social Security.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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I would sure like to see what would happen if those 2 male CSBG were put in a pond with about 8 adult female BG . No other fish just those. What do you think ?
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I'm already planning on taking the twenty best CSBG from this year class and placing them in a pond next April with thirty of the best female CSBG from the previous generation. Would you like to be there when I do it?
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Bruce, Can't wait to see how big the ones I got from you are this fall. If the way they eat is any indication... And the fact that they won't or can't reproduce in the cage could give me an advantage over the ones in your pond that are building nests. I'm really excited about producing my own bluegill and yellow perch from here on out with selective breeding. And of course not having to buy anymore fish is a definite plus!
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Originally posted by ewest: I would sure like to see what would happen if those 2 male CSBG were put in a pond with about 8 adult female BG . No other fish just those. What do you think ? I think the bottom one would color up in a hurry.
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Moderated by Bill Cody, Bruce Condello, catmandoo, Chris Steelman, Dave Davidson1, esshup, ewest, FireIsHot, Omaha, Sunil, teehjaeh57
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