Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Bass and Bluegill pond up in Smoke

I have a newly rejuvenated 3 1/2 acre pond that I stocked with 4500 Copper nose bluegill and 40 lbs of fathead minnows and planed to stock with bass after minnows had a chance to spawn. I had hopes to manage for bass and CNBG but with 2 ponds above me feeding into my pond when a heavy rain event I now have bass and catfish already established. When feeding the brim a 2lb bass flashed thru them so the next day I rigged up a 2" long brim and caught the bass. Since then I have seen several more bass and a huge spawn of catfish with two catfish about 14" long guarding them haven't got a close enough look to tell if there Flat Head or Channel cats. I thought about throwing a net and catching the adults and as many of the minnows as possible but I'm now thinking its probably a lost cause and I may as well just let the pond develop naturally and just enjoy what ever it gives me. The CNBG are doing great the supplier gave me a bag of Triton that they loved and have not found a supplier close enough to avoid a huge shipping charge, Tried a bag of feed from the co-op and tractor supply but the nuggets were to large. Ordered a bag of optimal and they are feeding good on it but would still like to find something local. I transported the fish from the supplier myself and used a couple of 55 gal drums with aeration to make sure the drums were safe I bought a pound of gambusia minnows and left them in overnight they did great so decided they were safe to use. I still see quite a few of these around the pond but not a single one of the 40lbs of fatheads that I bought. They were doing great for awhile and then a little cold front and gone. Asked the supplier and he said they went deep but would be back, they did come back and was seeing the majority of them in the upper end of the pond. Now a month later and no sign of them don't know if they were all eaten or went over the spillway either way gone before having a chance to spawn. Should I buy another 40lbs now and if I do will they spawn?
Just reaching out to get any of your thoughts.

I doubt if they have all been eaten or went downstream. They will probably show back up but if you purchase more they will have plenty of time to spawn

It will be very hard to get FHM established with existing LMB present, especially if the invader LMB spawned in late April. IMO at this point in your fishery quit wasting your good money on buying FHM. Consider using and spending money on prey fish that grow big enough the LMB will not eat the breeder adults. If catfish CC are not in your pond goals then focus your angler efforts of harvesting them. Look on youtube for best ways to catch CC. Determine if the CC have rounded or forked tails; this separates catfish from bullheads,

The FH minnows are Rosy reds so pretty easy to spot, hopefully they will show back up. I need to add more brush around the bank that will give them some protection and hold them where they can be seen. I have log jams and brush piles in shallow water on the upper end that are only a couple feet deep but 100 ft from shore so hopefully they are there. I'm just curious why I'm still seeing numerous gambusia minnows it seems they would be easy prey. I don't think I have a lot of LMB but maybe it doesn't take many to wreck havoc on the FH's.

Arkie,

I'll +1 Bill's advice not to spend more on FHM. We might be able to ID the catfish fry if you can net some. Walmart has a bait bucket net that would work for that (has a 1.5 ft or so wooden handle a fair sized net. I have collected BH for the aquarium with it and lots of GAM. I wrapped a broom handle to extend the reach.

Its cool that you were able to buy GAM by the pound. Can you say where they were purchased? or point me to its website?

I am hoping you are not dealing with FH or BH for the catfish. I will say I was just looking for BH spawn just yesterday and I have yet to find any in the DFW area. Not sure how your location in AR compares (earlier or later than here) but I usually do not see BH fry until late June or early July here. That there were two fish were caring for the young sounds like BH though.

FHM are very vulnerable to small LMB. But everything eats FHM including CNBG. FHM males are VERY VERY vulnerable due to their nest tending and guarding. Without successful reproduction, FHM soon are gone. The GAM, even though you stocked only 1 lb could replace the 40 lbs FHM.

jpsdad I'm with you on the BH but why are you opposed to FH? I thought either FH or CC would be fine in a pond. I bought the minnows from a bait store here in Malvern and didn't know what they were was just checking out my tanks. When the FHM 1st disappeared during a cold front I was talking with the supplier and described the minnows as staying shallow and on the surface he said it sounded like a mosquito minnow so I don't really know if there GAM. Since posting the CC and their fry have moved away from shore so will have to wait to try and identify.

Not to be nosy but are you referring to fat head minnow’s or flat head catfish? If catfish they get really big and can and will eat everything in there

Arkie, I was thinking you wanted an LMB pond. I thought FH would be too competitive. Water will support a similar standing weight of either ... but not both together at each weight. FH aren't great pond fish and have a tough time recruiting with LMB and/or BG. They seem to need more water or at least water with lots of deadfalls and such for cover. Typically the FH population ranges from less than one to about 2 maybe 3 fish per acre comprising the vast majority the standing weight. I enjoy FH though and used to fish for them a lot in creeks and lakes where I grew up. Delicious fish but very difficult to manage for a pond. If you want them, just understand that they will not recruit very well and maybe not at all in a small pond and that they will never stop growing as long as there is prey to eat. This is really the challenge to FH as I see it. Without a good source of 7" to 10" Stockers and diligent harvest of fish 5 to 10lbs you would probably be disappointed.

Do your mosquito minnows look like this?

Your not being nosy and any and all comments welcome, plus liked what you said about FHC eating everything in your pond will try and stay away from them. Will try and get my acronyms correct but I was referring to FHMs.

jpsdad, Thanks for the link will try and net one of the minnows to identify. I was wanting LMB and CNBG but with other ponds above me will probably just be happy with what I get and try and limit the # of unwanted fish by culling. Give more opportunity for the Grandkids to have fun. Was able to net some of the catfish fry and they are definitely BH, not what I wanted. I have read where with good water quality they are good to eat.

Arkie, if you have a Tractor Supply store close, you can buy Purina Aquamax online and ship to store for no charge.

fat heads are eaten quickly IMO - catfish in a bass/bluegill pond is not a good combination - been there and done that

jpsdad, finally got around to getting a picture of the minnow in question.
IMG-0835 by Wayne Hittle, on Flickr

beautiful shiner!

If there is a black dot on the top fin when the fin is lifted up it may be a spotfin shiner.

Golden shiner. Look how the lateral line dips way down in front of the dorsal fin.

esshup has ID for minnow correct = golden shiner. Spotfin does not have a decurved anal fin; GSH does.

decurved anal fin? Can you explain.

Now I see the lateral line dip which makes ID easy. But it would help if the golden shiner was actually GOLDEN

In fishery terms decurved means outer border curved inward or concave compared to straight or rounded or curved outwardly. Straight meaning no curvature.
Notice the curvature shape of the anal fins of the GSH in the link. The lateral line of GSH is said to be decurved for GSH as also seen in the link.
https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/discover-fish/florida-fishes-gallery/golden-shiner/

If you thought it was expensive to stock Golden Shiners, just wait until you get some price quotes for GOLDEN Shiners!

They are when they are in breeding/spawning colors.

Thanks to everyone for your responses. Is the Golden Shiner a hardier fish than the FHM? The reason for asking is I put 1lb of GSH in the pond and a week later 40lbs of FHM. I have not seen any FHM in months and never saw any floating. So I think they were eaten or went over the spillway. I have not stocked any bass and only have a few that were native to the pond before renovating the same thing with the BH. I think the 4000 CNBG 1 1/2 to 2" were to small to feed on the FHM and don't think the 300 3 to 4" CNBG could have eaten them all. I have a lot of structure away from the bank about casting distance from 3' to 7' deep I think I need to add structure from shoreline out.

I don't think "hardier" is quite the right measuring stick.

I think the "ease of predation" makes a much bigger difference for a mature pond.

If you put small and medium bass in a pond with little cover that was absolutely full of FHM, they might be capable of wiping out all of the FHM in a single annual cycle.

Even with heavy cover, a mature LMB/BG pond might have zero remaining FHM, despite the huge initial population of the minnows.

Golden Shiners, if established with an ongoing breeding population, survive in many of the LMB/BG ponds of people on the forum.

Hope that helps a little. (That is just some non-expert discussion.)

Forget about the fatheads. They are mostly for jump starting a new pond and get wiped out quickly. Adding more to an established pond is futile.

This stuff is all about predator/prey balance. That means bluegills and bass or catfish. Or bass and catfish. Only bluegills can spawn enough to feed bass and only bass can keep up with bluegills booming spawns. Don’t worry about bluegills over spawning. Somewhere around 90 to 95% of the eggs laid will never live to spawn. That’s MamaNature at work.

I’ve said this before. The best cattleman is a grass farmer and the best bass raiser pays a lot of attention to the bluegill forage base.