Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Cross breeding RES & CNBG in a tank

Rod, I expect they might have had some liquid refreshment prior to the dance.

Probably true.

Perhaps we should set up a barter system on Pond Boss?

People with dangerously low ponds can send an effective "PB rain dancer" a bottle of their favorite bourbon (or similar liquid refreshment) in exchange for a couple of rain storms!

Glad to see my thread getting some attention, even if it's some sort of strange bunny trail. 🤣

In addition to being a "pond" forum, Pond Boss is also a "friends" forum!

Some of the discussions do go down the bunny trail as people use the posts as a friendly conversation. Sorry for the diversion - because I am one of the worst offenders!

OTOH, it does keep people reading your post and checking for updates on the progress of your experiment!

Good luck with your nest-building BG. I hope THAT results in a good future update.

As you guys may have guessed, the cross attempt appears to have been a failure. The RES is still super fat but I am now starting to question if it is a SHE. It is definitely way more aggressive with eating than the bluegill so I suspect it's just a belly full of food. I even pulled "her" out a few times over the last 3 or 4 weeks to see if I could express any eggs with no luck. I still have them together in the tank but not sure what the future will be for them.

I did get 2 additional 250 gal tanks with the hope of needing room for hybrid fry. Last week I caught about 15 fingerling BG for one of the tanks. My summer project will be to see how quickly I can grow out a bruiser BG in a tank setup. I think I will start another thread for that project.

I'm not contributing much of anything, but RES are much more aggressive and may require 1) A larger spawning area. 2) A more attractive CNBG to mate with. 3) Turbid/Cloudy water. (kind of like a girl/guy in a bar after a few drinks...and do it under a full moon!)

It doesn't matter how green the grass is, a rancher that starts with two cows is NOT going to end up with a huge herd of cattle!

OTOH, you have now advanced your aquaculture skills! That should allow you to successfully experiment (or raise) more fish in your available space.

Yes, I learned that 300 gallon totes that had mulch dye in them are NOT worth the trouble no matter how cheap they are!😂
It is unfortunate that you only get a single shot at RES spawn each year, or at least that is my understanding.

Coldsprings,

Don't count yourself out on the project yet.

The RES is probably female. If you could post a pic of the vent area a better determination could be made. Were it male, chances are that you would have gotten some milt from your extrusion attempt.

As I understand it, RES girls dress kind of scantily and find themselves in places they should never have been. The chances are that the two will hookup if only they both would be ready when she is. You can get them both in the right state of body and mind with luteinizing hormone so that they mate on your schedule (not theirs). Usually a male is given one dose while the female two where the timing is specified. This can encourage them to mate naturally or allow you to express gametes for an artificial spawn. There are multiple sources online that describe the dosage and methods. I think you could obtain it from a vet that also services agriculture. Fish given the hormone should not be eaten for a minimum of 6 months and the offspring should be unaffected. As with all things of this nature, be careful with syringes and follow best practices for disposal of the waste and or unused medication.

A pond setting with a few pairs would probably also work better than the tanks but since you are using a laboratory setup it might help to use a lab method to control the timing of the mating.

HCG is the most common hormone given. It forces sexual maturity (same as Ovaprim) but doesn't force them to breed.
HCG has a neuro-blocker that that fools the pituitary, Ovaprim does not.
HCG requires a script to get, most VETS will want to see/be a part of the process, they won't just hand it out but still doesn't make them breed, only mature.
There's so much more to this and if you want to fertilize eggs there is a way but most eggs are ruined and cannot be fertilized at extraction without first understanding what opens pores in egg and activates sperm once in contact with the egg-it's a window of about 15 seconds total that both are open and active.

Thanks for the response! The mention of luteinizing hormone are just the keywords I needed to find other research papers on the topic. My wife spent most of her career in the vet field so I may be able to procure hormones if I can come up with a game plan to use them.
I think I posted vent area pics from late winter earlier in this thread, but I will try to get some current pictures.

I have read about using a capillary tube to prove for eggs but reluctant to get too invasive and/or cause damage if there is still a chance for spawn.

Regardless of this seasons outcome, will probably keep this pair around as they have learned to co-exist and are pretty well feed trained.

Thanks for the additional info. You guys just opened up a whole new potential can of research worms for me to investigate!🤣
I really wanted to dig some isolation/breeding ponds to let nature do all the work, but the combination of a wet spring and other large projects has delayed that effort. The tank expirement has been fun and has inspired some other projects.

Got some fresh pics today. Does it look like a female to you?

I am going to say that I am 99% certain that the RES is a female. I base that on the urogenital pore and overall appearance ... so I think you did good in selecting a female for your project. Hope you find success this year and get a crop of hybrid little ones. I fish a pond where 9" lepomis are fairly uncommon. When I catch one that size it is usually a BG-RES hybrid.

Coldsprings,

I wasn't aware that obtaining the meds would be that troublesome. You can circumvent all that by making your own meds. The procedure involves the collection of pituitary glands of gravid common carp (both males and females work). Ideally they are just about to pop when you kill the fish and collect the pituitary gland. 1 to 3 would probably be more than you need annually for a few lepomis injections.

It's not as hard as it sounds as this was the pioneering procedure. Some culturists prefer it over synthetics. If you are interested in going down the rabbit hole ... follow this link.. You may want to preserve that page in print or pdf as the site is no longer maintained (don't know how long it will be available by browser). Pay attention to the prep instructions for making a batch of meds that will keep in the frig for a few weeks. The hormones in the glands are water soluble and this is how they are extracted from ground pituitary into saline.

Here's what ya need. simple, ready to go, .5ml per pound per injection on males, .25ml per pound on females.
Simple, done. This again, does not make fish spawn, only makes eggs and sperm mature at a faster rate.
I'd happily talk you through this if you want to give me a call, I've done thousands of fish of different species with this and can save you a ton of head and heart ache.
Send me a PM and I'll share my number and everything you need to do this.

I actually have a larger one in another tank. I thought it was a "she" also but never saw signs of eggs so I went with the smaller one that was clearly gravid.

Will do!

[quote=jpsdad]Coldsprings,

. If you are interested in going down the rabbit hole ... follow this link..

I just went down the rabbit hole!😝. Very interesting read but I do not have immediate access to carp. I wonder if I could find a local bow fisherman to donate a test subject? It's the predominant target in this area.

That probably wouldn't be ideal. It is important to collect the pituitary shortly after death and refrigerate in absolute alcohol or acetone to arrest any decline of hormone potency. Common Carp pituitaries are proven to work across many species and are available year round in tropical areas. In principal, however, you could collect pituitary from the recipient species or other more closely related species. For example, you could collect pituitary from LMB so long as the donor is gravid and is in an advanced stage or has just spent gametes. Many species have been used successfully but unlike the common carp it is substantially more difficult to obtain pituitary in the optimum state of hormonal potency. Both the pituitary and HCG contain Gonadotropic hormone but HCG is a human hormone while those in the carp pituitary is of course of fish hormone. Both are effective because they are very similar chemically.

All that said, since with Snipe's help you are not going to have to walk uphill ... both ways ... in the snow ... I would take him up on the offer. I just wanted to point out that vets with sticks up their ... or wanting to charge you to be there ... regulation/permits/ect are no deterrent if you are determined to do it. It's like Rusty's epitaph, "Don't tell me I can't do something, just sit down and watch me do it".

Gamete’s
Gonadotropic
Pituatarites

You just got above my eddication level. Think I’ll go have a beer.