Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Please help newbie pond builder

I have plenty of room but my old back and my old backhoe have limits and I want my pond right now. (It's an OCD thing). I was planning to dig a hole in the side of this hill about 10' deep and 35' in diameter. This is 0.022 acre. I could make it bigger, I could make it 50' x 30', How big do I have to get to have a decent minimum fish production. I want to eat 8 fair sized bluegills every two weeks.
I am thinking I can harvest minnows and crayfish from my little creek and relocate them to my new pond and then add bluegills shortly after that. I do not plan to feed them or aerate. Just a natural, near zero maintenance pond I can pull some tasty bluegills out of occasionally. They do not have to be monsters.

How far back should I cut the surrounding trees?

I was planning to have floating containers with watercress and goodies as well.

I am not building a dam, it is not in a ravine that will cause much threat of overflow. It is near the bottom of the hill where the groundwater level is always high.

This project is part of my off grid life as detailed at https://www.nogridhome.com

Ideas, suggestions much appreciated.
Thank you!
Bruce

I don't believe there will be enough natural forage in a pond that small to support the number of BG that you would like to harvest.

I think pellet-feeding your BG would be the biggest improvement to your productivity. You do not need an expensive automatic feeder. Once you are living there, you can hand toss the pellets to your fish.

Channel catfish are more efficient in turning feed into meat. If you are really going hard-core on the "off grid" lifestyle, they might be an alternative choice - but not quite as tasty.

Good luck on your project!

Be aware that a pond dug out on the side of a hill may have porous soil that does not hold water very well. You are maybe digging a leaker hole. You dig a hole but you build a pond - TWO very different processes. Hopefully you will find a spring that can feed water into the pond to keep it full and the water flushed. Both very good things.

The bigger that you make the pond the more fish you will be able to grow in it.

Fertility. Ponds as with field dirt are able to grow just so many pounds per acre. Nature's Law. The fertility of the soil and or water then determines how much can be grown or raised. Nature's Law. Since you are planning on growing some watercress and goodies in the water these plants will absorb some of the pond dissolved fertility and cause or allow less aquatic food chain to grow to feed the food chain for the fish. These plants 'should' help keep the water clearer. Not feeding the fish pelleted food significantly lessens the amount of fish that can be grown within the pond. Similar to grazing animals on pasture. Leaves from the surrounding trees do at least 2 things: add organic nutrients and degrade water quality by mainly consuming dissolved oxygen (DO) during leaf decay. Large amounts of organic inputs may cause DO sages as the pond ages to cause DO depletion and periodic fish kills. Be aware of these serious potential problems.
From our PBoss Common Pond Q&A Archives
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96127#Post96127

More Pond Management Info
https://fisheries.tamu.edu/aquaculture/water-quality/


Lets look at how many fish pounds this small pond can realistically and naturally grow.
Pond 30x50 = 1500sqft. 0.03 ac when completely full over flowing.
Water chemistry with its alkalinity and soil nutrients are VERY important for aquatic productivity. Water Alkalinity should be above 20 ppm for good plankton development / growth to feed the food chain. For less than 20 ppm (30+ is better) and to get good plankton development for the food chain you will have to regularly add lime to the pond as farmers add lime to fields. Too many crayfish can make the water turbid - pros and cons. Main con is limiting sunlight and plankton production. Some crayfish species create tunnels which can perforate the pond banks and cause leaks or seepages.

I will use a natural medium woodland water fertility estimate of 150 lbs/ac X 0.03ac = 4.5 lbs to a maximum 5lbs of panfish per 0.03 ac. This is the total available of ALL total panfish present. Often a clear water woodland pond has very clear water, low plankton production, and the total fish productivity is less than 150lbs panfish per acre.

Normally for a sustainable fishery the harvest is said to be around 30% of the total amount present. Thus 5 lbs in 0.03 ac X 30%(0.30) = 1.5 lbs harvestable fish. This accounts for leaving in a few breeders and sub-harvest sizes for reproduction and the next harvest. You can back calculate these numbers for what size of pond it would take to achieve a harvest of 8 medium BG twice a month. Reference BG standard weights 5" = .09lb (1.44oz); 6" = 0.16lb(2.56oz); 7" = 0.27lb = 4.32oz; 8" = 0.42lb = 6.72oz.

Fertilizing the water and feeding the fish with good aeration, which are not in your plan, can increase this panfish production up to 10X - depending - numerous factors about this complex topic.

Bluegill (BG) are not the best fish IMO to achieve your harvest goals of a tiny 1500 sqft pond. All Natural management for a regular fish harvest is difficult in a tiny 0.03 ac pond. Other species or Tilapia may be a better choice for a tiny fish production pond. Numerous Pros and cons here also.

Back calcing for you, to eat 8 BG in the 7"-8" range every other week, you would be harvesting 56-88 lb annually. At a rate of 30% you would need to hold approximately 185-290 lb of BG, which at the 150 lb/acre carry capacity referenced in Bill's post, you are looking at pond of 1.2-2 acres. If you are willing to eat smaller fish at the same rate (say the 5"), you could get away with a pond closer to 0.4 acres. For a pond the size you are talking, you will either need to significantly increase carry capacity (feeding, aerating, etc, and not likely able to attain your goals as stated, IMO) or reduce consumption.

Thank you fine peeps for the EXCELLENT information!

I will target 60' x 40' (0.055 acre)

My soil is ultra dense red clay. Holds water as good as glass.
Soil ph is 5.5, this is naturally going to make my pond acidic. What pH should I target?

I love channel cats.
Some issues I have with them:
I am not good with a fillet knife.
I will lose some meat by removing fillets.
I think they are funky things to try to clean.
They look like monsters.

I love bluegills a little bit more.
Best taste.
I gut them and scale them (I really dont like scaling but I deal with it) cut head off and fry them "whole" and eat the skin. I peel the cooked meat off the bone. Seems like I will get the most meat this way.

I dont like talalpia or any predator fish.

I don't have to grow plants like watercress. I was thinking that would be beneficial in clarifying and removing nitrates.

Are there any natural elements that can promote oxygenation? Man made? Maybe a solar bubbler that you place in the pond and it makes bubbles when the sun shines?

Should I clear out more trees for more sunlight?

How deep does it need to be?

Thank you so much for the help, YOU RULE!

Water pH for growing fish is best of 6.0 to 9.0. Lime or gypsum can increase pH if needed.
http://agrilife.org/fisheries2/file...lkalinity-and-Hardness-in-Fish-Ponds.pdf

Check the wooded property for natural woodland pools and these should provide some indication of what the pH in your pond will be.

Depth - Since the pond will have annual inputs of tree leaves I would try for depth of 7ft to 8ft because the pond can easily accumulate lots of dead leaves. There are ponds in wooded areas that collect 10" -12 " of leaves per year. Water clarity of 3 to 3.5 ft will allow all types of algae and plants to receive sunlight to produce DO on the bottom at 7-8ft deep. With 6 ft of depth I think the pond will lose significant depth after 2-4 years. Cloudy water stops light penetration and DO is not produced as deep. As long as your water has 3 ft of secchi disk clarity, the 7ft depth does not need aeration. Loss of clarity - then DO is lost and not produced on the deeper bottom areas.

If the pond is kept 5ft to 6 ft deep you could periodically pump drain it and with your tractor and bucket scoop out the organics on the bottom back to hard bottom.



There are other versions available for building Secchi disks. For your pond application you do not need to divide the disk into white and black quadrants.

Enough CC at harvestable sizes in the pond for food production will cloud the water to low visibility 12" - 2ft.

The pond may or may not develop various water quality issues. This will all depend on dissolved nutrient concentrations and balance. Usually ponds in wooded areas have pretty clear water unless critters that disrupt the bottom sediments are present. Generally green hue waters are due to plankton and soil colored water is dominated by disturbed bottom sediments. Wind shoreline erosion should not be a factor in your woodland ponds.

I don't have a lot of experience for growing fish in woodland tiny ponds with clear water, low fertility and no pellet feeding.

You are welcome to return for advice and help after you build the pond.

Wow that linked article was intense. Thank you for that!

This is exactly what I do at work in the BioPharma lab growing cell cultures. Controlling pH, DO, temperature.
We agitate, sparge with CO2 to bring pH lower and add base to raise pH.
We sparge with Air and then O2 if it gets too low controlling DO.
We have complex nutrient and glucose feeding cycles.
I guess I already understand and know what to do. I will try to make it as deep as i can and leave a ramp to get out.

The part I didn't see coming was the fish making the water acidic by breathing. My cells do it in the lab so I get it...
I should plan to add a bit of lime occasionally.

So after all of this fine advice it seems like I really need to add a bubbler. I could run it for free during the daylight hours as I am off the power grid and use solar. Please recommend the best one for my application.

If I was using my own fish food what should I grow? Are there any plants they would consume whole? (Bluegills)

THANK YOU!

For fish food, I believe you would be better off buying it. The decades of experience that the people at Optimal have in producing fish food for the aquaculture industry, now the pond owner market can't be duplicated in one person's lifetime.

As for aeration, the ponds consume O2 at night (any plankton, plants or organisms in the pond all consume O2 when there isn't sunlight) so the most critical time to aerate the pond is at night, especially the hours before sunrise. There are solar systems to purchase, but they are way more expensive than grid based systems. You will need batteries for aeration at night. Look and read a lot of threads in the section of aeration forums here, much has been posted already.

Asking - "If I was using my own fish food what should I grow? Are there any plants they would consume whole? (Bluegills)."

Most all members on this Pond Mgmt forum utilize prepared pelletized fish foods. A few have used natural food supplements such as by GW below. FYI - bluegill are not vegetarians. They are predators who consume primarily protein rich invertebrates. As juveniles and larger individuals BG will readily eat fish eggs and fry when they are commonly available. Thus I would not plan to grow very many BG in your pond using plant materials as a main food unless you can formulate some form of high protein type material that is palatable to the BG. Soy meal has recently been incorporated into pellet formulations for fish by some manufacturers.

As I know it, for your topic you should look for species of fish that readily eat plants and focus your potential pond fish species to be ones that feed primarily lower on the food chain - primarily vegetarians – plant eaters. Most all common pond fish species available that are considered sport fish commonly thrive on animal based foods such as invertebrates and small fish. Their first foods are the small zooplankton (rotfiers) and as these fish grow they thrive on eating larger and larger animal morsels. Plants in the diet are often incidentally ingested rather than choice foods.

One exception that I know are those in the tilapia group and even tilapia are known to eat small fish mostly as fry and small fingerlings when plants are not available. Your research may reveal other vegetarian based fish species that could work in your small pond. You have a steep learning curve here on this topic.
A PBoss dormant member was GW who used black soldier flies and their larvae to supplementally feed his fish. I think he grew the fly larvae mostly using waste food. Here is a link to that lengthy thread. Note a lot of the links in the thread no longer connect.
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=87511&page=1

If you are successful in finding and feeding your fish all plant based food please return to report your results so we can learn about your fish growing adventures.

You can feed your BG with a floating feeder that uses road kill or fish scraps. Basically it is a floating platform with screen on it to create an area where the material sits and use a plastic container over it with a few holes drilled in it. Flies will find it lay their eggs maggots will hatch consume the feed stock and when they are ready to pupate they crawl off and bury in the ground but there's no ground there so they fall into the water and the fish will be there to eat them.

I LIKE IT!!! I have an insane amount of squirrels. They are not so hard to trap either. I was thinking about buying a cheap grinder to serve my fish whole ground squirrel burgers.

I didn't want a bunch of rotten dead goo in my pond so I wasn't sure if this would be a good idea.

I really like the carcass / fly farm idea. Way cool!!!

I harvest bags full of japanese beetles every summer. They seem to be too big for my BG's, maybe if i grind them up?

(My entire existence is about being self sustaining). I can afford food I just refuse to buy it.

THANK!!!

Try to return here and keep us advised as to your pond progress. Other members interested in 'off the grid' living will find your adventures very educational and helpful. We are about sharing dependable, experienced, and successful pond management information.

The beauty of this feeder is if you place the food stock by a dumpster or somewhere there is a good fly population they lay so many eggs that they consume the feed so fast it barely has any smell. I would catch common carp from a local lake place it by the dumpster for several hours then put it in the feeder they would hatch and consume a twenty pound carp in about a week and a half down to skin and bones. The best part of this was the excuse to catch carp on light gear. I burned up several light spinning reels doing it and you can see the growth increase in your fish

I haven't had much luck with feeding Japanese beetles to the fish, I also catch bags full of them in the summer months but the fish don't appear to like them, pretty much wont eat them, I thought it would be the perfect way to get rid of the beetles and let the fish have a bunch of food but they didnt agree, spit them back out. Good Luck!

While I work on removing more trees and getting my backhoe repaired I am looking into growing my own invertebrates. Since one can buy worms and bugs at the bait store my thinking starts there.
I have used worms and crickets many times when fishing. Growing worms appears to be fairly simple although it won't produce much. I am looking at growing crickets. I have a garden that produces lots of extra green bulk for them and I have dogs for some dog food dust. I make my own mulch for substrate. About all they would cost is a light bulb or heating pad running and a little bit of work. Mealworms are interesting as well.
I am still in brainstorming mode considering what bug(s) to grow.

Based on your advices I will be making my pond much larger than .02 acre trying to get to .12
Deep as I can.
Removing more surrounding trees to minimize leaf buildup and increase sunlight exposure.

THANK YOU!! All the best!

I once had a worm farm. I used a old military wall locker with drain holes in the bottom. I filled it with dirt; yep, common dirt. I added common earth worms, not night crawlers, and kept it moistened. I fed everything from chicken feed to fish food. It was on my patio.

The old idea of letting worms be your garbage disposal isn’t a good idea unless you want to grow maggots. I had to keep the lid closed to keep the worms in and flies out.

On rainy days, the worms generally climbed up the sides to go elsewhere. Worms were everywhere. That was ok with me but not for wife. BTW, worms are really prolific.

I finally sold the whole works to a couple of Dallas cops. They divided it into about 20 big containers and had a surplus of worms. So, they decided soil that rich would be good for raising plants. They wound up getting arrested for going into the marijuana business with the super enriched soil.