Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Stocking Forage Fish Vs Carrying Capacity

Bill,

Thank you VERY much for your extensive post. I will have several weeks of reading and research to do just from your post along before then digging further into the Pond Boss archives and ensuring that I have familiarized myself as much as possible with all of the information necessary for me to accomplish my goals.

The good news is that I don`t plan to stock any predator fish until this fall, so I have ample time to not only read and digest all of the necessary information, but also to determine a specific plan of action based upon that research.

I feel the need to express again how incredible the information you provided was. Especially the fact that you provided specific links to resources as well as titles and publication dates of other 3rd party sources to make it easier for me to find and read/watch/listen to. I (and others) truly do appreciate it!

I have mixed feelings about a Female population on LMB pond. I 100% understand that it makes it significantly easier to achieve the goal of true trophy sized predator fish. I also like the idea of mixing in HSB as well (although I did not realize they would not reproduce until reading your post). However, while I want to grow very large bass, my overall goal is personal enjoyment and harvesting of fish on a regular basis. I realize that this strategy would simply switch me to focusing on harvesting Pan fish (BG or YP), however my primary focus was on the harvesting of the predator fish from a personal enjoyment standpoint. My initial thought is that I would rather catch more slightly smaller LMB on a regular basis than 10-12lbs once a year. However, I am also not the guy who would be satisfied with 4-6lbs Bass only in the pond either as you mentioned in your post many pond owners settle for out of ease. Again, I realize this is a delicate balance to hit.

However, I also like the idea of doing a 50% mix (or something similar) of HSB to LMB as opposed to all LMB. I think the diversity in fishing would be very nice. Assuming that I decided to go with a mixed sex LMB population, could I still do a mix of HSB as well? If so, would the percentage of HSB to LMB be different?

I think it would be remiss for me to specifically mention that while my situation is not one where "money is of no consequence" I also don't mind spending several thousand dollars per year (as outlined in your post) in order to achieve my goals and to provide myself and my family with adequate levels of enjoyment. This was part of my train of thought when I decided to spend several thousand dollars on Mossback Fish Habitats as opposed to simply sinking trees and brush (a much cheaper option). I figured in the long run, it should pay off to better achieve what I am looking for. I will need to do some additional research on the articles you provided to be sure, however I believe that I have sufficient habitat as I did build "fish cities" as opposed to simply putting in a few fish attractors here and there. Mossback has a chart where they outline ideal placement of each item to essentially create a base city and then a highway to and from said city for the fish with structure at multiple points along the highway. I followed this chart when designing my pond structure. With that said, I will review the information you provided to ensure I don't need to make changes. I also dont mind the idea of supplemental stocking of forage fish in the future as necessary.

It is funny that you mention I should immediately stock Northern Crayfish. Over the past several weeks I have read quite a few posts that talk about the benefits of stocking Crayfish. I was at my pond earlier this week and noticed one in the water and took pictures. I am unsure where it came from as I did not stock it, but it provided a moment of happiness for me to see it. Of course it was just this one, but I wondered if there were more. I will do some research and see if there is a local supplier that I can utilize to stock Northern Crayfish specifically as it sounds like I need to do so immediately if I want them to create a population base. I do like the idea of diversity in the forage base, similar to in the predator population.

Image of the one I saw in my pond:




Along those same lines, you mentioned stocking Golden Shiners in your post. Is that something I also need to do immediately? Or could they be stocked in the fall with the bass? I assume the reason to stock GS is because they get larger than the FHM and therefore provide for a better forage base for the BG to grow them bigger to therefore grow bigger bass?

I did not stock any Tilapia at this point, but I did stock several sterile Grass Carp to try and control vegetation in the pond at the same time I stocked the BG and FHM in 2022. I will keep an eye on overall vegetation and Alge and look at also stocking Tilapia annually as necessary to control this.

In the event I choose to go with a mixed sex LMB population, you mentioned you recommend cutting off the tail of the fish and putting them back into the pond. I had read several threads suggesting this same process and that is what my plan to do is. However, most of those posts recommend cutting off not only the tail, but also the other fins as well. Is doing just the tail sufficient to make them easy pickings for the larger LMB?

Regarding the forage fish in a mixed sex LMB pond, I initially thought I would need to harvest the BG based upon size and RW to ensure I had the "correct sizes" in the pond. Of course, this was prior to me discovering this forum. However, based upon the sheer amount of forage fish necessary to feed a large LMB, it sounds like I would not need to actively harvest any of the BG and my primary focus would be on harvesting the LMB based upon RW. Is this correct?

I had already made the decision that the goal of my pond was not to grow only 12lb+ LMB that I would catch one per year. The biggest reason for the pond for me in the first place is my personal enjoyment. A huge part of that enjoyment is abnormally large LMB, but it doesn't need to be state record fish or anything along those lines either. I think if I could manage the pond to produce average LMB of around 8-10lbs with a couple bass larger than that present as well, I would be happy.

I will take the next several weeks to review all of the articles you have provided as well as to scour the Pond Boss forums to familiarize myself with the overall process of what it would take to achieve my goals. Either way, I wont be stocking any LMB until this fall. I figure that should give me ample time to determine if I want to go with a single sex or mixed sex fisheries. Then the next step would be properly vetting the LMB provider in either scenario to ensure I am getting jumpers.

I also did a bit of digging into Aerators and have decided it makes more sense for me to run a couple of hundred yards of electrical line underground and run a standard power aerator than trying to run a solar one. I will continue to look on the forums for one that will pull from the bottom and circulate as much water as possible.

Thank you again for the incredible wealth of information you have provided!

While Bill's comment on HSB not spawning in the pond is 99.9% correct, don't assume that they are sterile because they are not. The HSB just do not have the correct spawning habitat for the eggs to remain viable until they hatch.

esshup,

Have you ever heard (or read) of a successful spawn of HSB in a pond?

What is the limiting condition that defeats the spawning effort? Might someone's pond be close to favorable conditions?

Rod, I'm no expert like esshup, but I believe that both parent species of HSB require long stretches of current to spawn successfully. That's rare in a pond setting. If I'm wrong, the real experts can correct me.

anthropic is correct. Striped Bass eggs float, and have to float in well oxygenated water (flowing or moving water) for roughly 30-70 hours, depending on the water temp. If they reach shore, they will get silted over and die. So, flowing water is needed to keep them moving. I know of only one pond in the USA where the pond owner has reproduction from the Hybrid Striped Bass. That is the pond owned by the creator of Stubby Steve's Pellets. His pond has a very long fetch that ends up on limestone riprap and he will occasionally get some viable HSB eggs hatch if the weather and wind conditions are "just right".

Answers to Questions: I think I covered all your questions. If I missed one or you have more ???? just ask. All readers are very welcome to add comments.

Habitat – Your placement of habitat sounds to me like you are on the right path. Mossback does know what creates good habitat.

GSH (shiners) I think you want to use GSH to diversify the forage base. I would stock them as breeding size adults (3”-5”) this spring so they can establish a strong population because the LMB and HSB can prey pretty hard on them especially as the predators grow into their 2nd year. I would not wait until fall for GSH. Initial stocking of GSH could be 4 to 7 lbs/ac in your case and allow the to reproduce before adding bass. Ideally you would want to stock them before mid June. Stocking lower numbers of GSH acre early allows them to build high numbers economically before LMB are added. I think for your goals, you want the GSH so be established as the same plan the BG are established so they can maintain numbers long term and reproducing to help feed the new bass. GSH could be stocked together with some tilapia in late May early June. GSH are said to eat filamentous algae, however I highly question how much FA that GSH actually eat when other invertebrate foods are available. GSH ‘might’ help with a very mild FA infestation of a new pond, but I doubt it.

Tilapia & Grass carp – You should not need very many tilapia until you have a noticeable filamentous algae problem. However adding some tilapia (5lb/yr) each year before your LMB grow to 4lb-6lb would be a good idea because it diversifies your forage base. Almost always a good thing. A couple GC in a newish 1 ac should help keep submerged weed growth and natural vegetative habitat to a minimum. Watch the development of submerged weeds each late Summer -Fall to monitor development amount of weeds.

Crayfish – The cray in the picture “might” be a white river crayfish based on shape of its ‘claws’. They can grow to be a mouth full to feed big bass.

Top end bass of 7lb to 8lb in any pond are very nice and high quality bass. If you add some HSB to the community they can get to the 9lb to 10 lb sizes as fast as the LMB grow to just 7 or 8lbs.

Meat Feeding Bass – My rule is the more fins you cut off the hand tossed fish the less chance it has for survival. Initially I would cut most all the fins off the ‘small’ bass until get large bass visually and strongly eating the hand tossed small bass or BG. Then removing just tails would be sufficient.

Bluegill Harvest w/ Big Bass As I mentioned it will be tricky to harvest very many panfish when they are needed to grow big bass. Diversifying the forage base should allow some harvest of biggest BG especially prior to initial stocker bass reaching 6-7lbs. Once LMB grow to your goal of 7lb-9lb then harvest of BG may be counterproductive for growing bass to bigger sizes. I would harvest BG as the ones too big for the largest LMB to eat. You could implement an initial slot harvest of BG to be only those larger than 7.5” or 8”. And for best BG production those harvested I think could be mostly the males because you are trying to create more BG rather than wanting the pond mainly for trophy BG where the females are the ones primarily harvested. Others can debate me about this philosophy.


LMB Female vs Mixed Gender – Both types have pros and cons. Mixed LMB can do very well in a small pond. I think the smaller the pond the more that using all female LMB is more beneficial for growing the biggest bass. If I was given two same size ponds and I grew female LMB in one and mixed gender LMB in the other pond, I am convinced that I could grow easier and quicker MORE bigger LMB in the all female bass pond.
As you mention – “”However, I am also not the guy who would be satisfied with 4-6lbs Bass only in the pond.””
If after 7-9years your biggest LMB are only 5lb-6lb then I think you are not doing all that is needed to grow big bass. You will then need to make some adjustments toward better fishery management.
HSB with Mixed Sex LMB. You can mix in any number of HSB in with the mixed sex LMB. Note HSB are sometimes difficult to obtain in Fall. If that happens then just stock the HSB the next spring preferably as 6”-8” sizes.

The beauty of using the HSB is you can EASILY control how many of them you have in the pond. Add some, remove some with no overpopulation problems. The HSB I think will also help reduce the number of small bass. How much will HSB reduce the numbers of small fingerling bass???? . I do not really know. But I do know, they will eat some small bass based on how many small bass are present and how MANY and what SIZE of HSB that are present. If I were using the mixed LMB at 50LMB/ 1ac rate, I would stock 12-15HSB and 35 LMB. Once you decide how well you like HSB and if you want more of these amazing fish,,, then harvest out smaller ORIGINAL lower relative weight, slower growing LMB (probably the males) and replace them with the same number of new HSB. If you have never raised HSB you are in for an exciting PLEASURE CRUISE.

With mixed gender bass you are then more challenged to manage the numbers of smaller bass to achieve the percentage of bigger bass that you want in 1 acre. The management becomes more intensive. This management could easily involve adding forage species and determining the frequency of added forage/s. Remember adding supplemental forage for big bass does not mean small items. Big foods are best used for big bass. Big foods cost more money. Be prepared. Do homework and cost estimates for sizes of bigger forage foods. Basically the more predators you are trying to keep fat the more forage that is needed. I think keeping numbers of bass numbers reduced and more toward a good predator big bass balance in 1 ac the less forage supplements that will be needed. Remember – bass not actively growing shown by high RWs means too many bass and not enough food for them to eat. Balance and monitoring RWs are VERY important for goals of big bass.

HSB - reproduction. HSB will generally develop fertile eggs. However very rarely will pond conditions be correct for those eggs to hatch. As mentioned the eggs need to be in some sort of current habitat to hatch. I know of only one proven instance where HSB eggs successfully hatched to produce young HSB. That occurred or occurs at the base operations of Stubby Steve's Lure Company in Virginia where they have I think a moving water raceway between two ponds. I asked Dave Beasley (Solitude Lk Mgmt) based in VA to write a PBoss mag story about this. Nothing yet.

As this post ages I will add some edits.

Bill:

From what I know of the pond in Va. they have a long fetch that ends up on a riprap shoreline, so the fetch and the rocky shore keeps the eggs suspended for the required length of time if the weather conditions are correct.

BIll,

Thank you again for the information. I do have a couple of follow up questions/statements.

I searched the forum looking for a post that would assist me with converting average size of fish and number of fish to pounds, but was unable to find anything. I did of course look at the RW Post in the FAQ, however I cant seem to find anything that relates to Bait Fish. You mentioned in your post to stock 4-7 lbs per acre of GSH and I want to try to get an idea of how many fish that actually is.

Along those same lines, is there a post or thread that discusses the reputable fisheries to source fish from in various states/regions? My question is two fold. One, I reached out to my current fish stocker about the Northern Crawfish as well as to get more RES and he said he would not have any Crawfish until a month or 2 and did not have an abundant number of RES available. I want to find a company locally (Central Kansas near Hays and Great Bend) to get these into the water at the pond while it is still too cold for the fish to spawn to try and take advantage of a spawn this year. The 2nd reason is that this forum has put the fear of God into me about properly selecting the 25-30 LMB I am going to stock this spring. I know my current guy of course has LMB, but I dont know his level of expertise on making sure I get 8-10in Jumpers that specifically are about a year old and not from a prior batch. Plus of course I will stock a few HSB this fall as well. As mentioned, I only get one shot to get it right and I want to start doing my research so I am prepared for this Fall.

Also, is there a recommended fish scale to use to determine RW of the fish? I was out in Wichita this weekend and stopped by Bass Pro, however I am concerned that the scale they sell off the shelf is designed to weight much larger bass and other fish then I will have in my pond initially. I want to begin measuring RW of both Bass and BG starting next spring so I would like to find a scale that has a wide enough measurement range to cover the smaller bass and BG as well as the adult sized ones.

As I mentioned above, I like the idea of diversifying the forage base. I think adding the GSH as well as RES and GSH is a great idea to do immediately. It is just a matter of finding the proper source.

Thanks as usual.

When having pond forum questions it is always a good idea to first use a search engine – I like google.
First type Pond boss forum then your topic search words It works very good for me if I use the correct search words.

First Question: “recommended fish scale to use to determine RW of the fish?”
Scales for weighing fish – what members use & ideas
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=497761


LMB choosing stockers
Knowing a really good fish supplier is a VALUABLE asset. IMO best way to get jumpers from your local ‘fish guy’ or any fish farm owner is talk to him not the secretary nor helper, give him your goals and why you want jumper bass no more than 1 yr old; 2 yr olds are less likely to be jumpers. You can agree that he can supply young jumpers from his current year class, such as hand picked jumper bass in Jul, Aug or Sept. This ASSUMES that he grows his own bass. If he buys them from a wholesale supplier the jumpers have always been graded out of the bass by the wholesaler that he bought from to sell. Fish farms buying LMB from large wholesalers is a very common practice.
Make sure you tell him if he does not do his best for you, you will provide positive or negative feedback for him on every Facebook, YouTube, and public forum you can find, including Pond Boss Forum. That alone should make him pay close attention to your plan and then agree or decline to sell you bass. IMO do not agree if he tells you his non-jumper bass will grow just as well as all or any normal bass. He then does not know much about and does not fully understand fish genetics and their potential for growth.
Go find someone else who will work seriously and honestly with you. Searching and finding a real good fish supplier can be a big challenge. “Fish sellers are all not cut from the same cloth”. Experts are experts for good reasons; same principle applies to doctors and all professions. Average fish guys are average as they perform with average requirements and casual reasons. If you really want premium bass you may have to travel 4 to 5 hours one way to get the premium fish from a premium fish farm. 25 – 30 jumper bass are not difficult to haul 4-5 hours if they are packed and prepared properly by the fish farm who knows how far you have to travel to get home.

GSH per pound
You ask – “you mentioned in your post to stock 4-7 lbs per acre of GSH and I want to try to get an idea of how many fish that actually is.

Weight of each fish depends on specie of fish, length of the fish, and plumpness of individual fish. For your GSH as an average: @ 3” long = abt 100-125 per pound; 4” 50-60/lb; 5” = 17-22/lb, 6” = 9-12/lb.

Not many suppliers very close to you.


Kansas Aquaculture Directory

I know of a few other suppliers that are not on that list.

Snipe is a fish supplier (near Goodland). He frequently adds expert advice on Pond Boss threads. He handles and supplies many species of fish that are well-suited for Kansas ponds. (Including some species that are not listed on his website.)

Snipe's webpage


Another one not on the list is Culver's Fish Farm. They may be the closest to you (McPherson).

Culver's webpage

Good luck on fixing and stocking your new pond!

SSJSayajin, I'll get ahold of you tomorrow and we will discuss a time to meet.
We can also address fish options then.

BTW, Kenny does handle LMB...
and several other species not listed on website.

Coming back to this thread to utilize both as an update as well as a request for fish identification.

Snipe came out to my property several weeks ago to look things over and give me advice. We discussed several things including the dam wall, stocking levels, water quality, erosion control, aquatic vegetation to plant, ground cover, aeration etc. It was a very fruitful visit and I gained lots of information as well as a further game plan for the pond. I also did some specific water testing using an over the counter pond kit prior to his arrival and we reviewed the results and determined it seems like I have good water quality. We did however determine that I have an excess amount of Grass Carp in the pond and that is adding to the turbidity. I will need to focus some efforts on removing several in the future.

Following some of Snipes instruction, I planted some aquatic vegetation about 2 weeks ago in the shallow pond waters. I also reached out to my local NRCS (per his advice) office about ground cover around the newly constructed pond and they sourced seeds for me to plant. One of the issues my pond has it turbidity due to rain running down the side of the pond. There isn`t any runoff from the rest of the property, just water running down the dam walls and pond sides through the mud into the pond. This vegetation should help with that. I also followed additional advice to add 2 areas of rip rap rock in the pond as well. I don`t have exact measurements of the area, but I probably did 2 15-20ft areas or so.

Following Bill Cody`s advice, I purchased 5lb of Brooder size GSH that I stocked in May. I also purchased 500 PK Shrimp that I stocked in June. I am hopeful that the PK shrimp make it despite there not being a huge amount of aquatic vegetation yet. I also added Northern Crayfish to the pond in May as well. I was originally debating waiting until this fall to add to Crayfish in order to give the vegetation time to grow in the pond. As I did more research on them I saw several posts here stating they will burrow into the dirt to look for food with adequate vegetation and that would add to my turbidity problem. The flip side of that is that 1. Bill said to get them in ASAP (and that means a lot for obvious reasons) and 2. I thought that it would be better to get them in early as it would hopefully give them time to spawn. The decision was made for me when my fish hatchery (the one who provided my initial stocking) called me and said that he was at my property with the Northern Crayfish that I had called and asked him if he had access to back in April. So the Crayfish were added as well. I also added some pallets and other floating surfaces tied off to the bank to provide good breeding habitat for the minnows. (cant remember who recommended that)

Following Eastlands advice I purchased a minnow trap to sample some of the smaller fish as I was worried about my initial stocker BG and if they survived. All of my original stockers were 4-6in or more, so I knew I wouldn't catch them in the trap, but was hopeful I might catch some of the spawn. I also purchased a pond/pool pole and net to do the same thing.

I have no idea what the Fry swimming around are, but there are massive amount of them. As mentioned, my clarity level in the pond is only a few feet currently, but I see them almost non stop daily. Many will rapidly attack the feed when it is deployed while others seem to have no interest and only eat bugs and such on the surface. The fry are of varying sizes and colors and I (hope) they are various species that are all spawning.

I would appreciate it if someone would assist me with IDing these Fry so I know what I currently have spawning.

The plan is to stock Feed Trained LMB and HSB from Snipe this fall.

Thanks for the help and all of the great advice.

The fish would be easier to ID if one or two were in the palm or your hand. From the distant images of your minnows in Pic 3 they look like female FHM full of eggs. Picture 4 sure looks like a female mosquito fish.

At this point in time for the crayfish, I do not think the population numbers are abundant enough to cause any turbidity problems. However they could suppress plant growth especially if there is not FA for them to eat at the crayfish habitat. After the 1st and 2nd crayfish reproductive seasons (all have young in spring) there could maybe enough crayfish to cause turbidity - it all depends. A lot of it depends on what fish and sizes are present and amount of cover for the baby crayfish. Northern crayfish (NC) are larger and somewhat more aggressive species compared to papershell crayfish thus NC juveniles and adults of large sizes can better avoid predation from smaller and even medium size bass predators. Old Northern crays can get 2X the size of papershell.

Bill,

Understood and thanks for the advice. I plan to sample more fish tonight at the pond and will follow the instructions regarding putting them in the palm of my hand.

I appreciate the heads up about the crayfish. It's nice to know I have a year or two to have to worry about things and can then evaluate at that point.

Will report back more later.

SSJSayajin,

The minnow in the 4th pic is Gambusia Affinis. They probably invaded your pond. They are pretty much everywhere in KS. They are great to have in your pond if they can persist.

Regarding the crayfish ... Northerns exude eggs in the spring so small crayfish stocked this year will grow to adults this summer and breed this fall. Females should be berried in the March through April period. Depending on survival of the initial stocking. There could be bumper crop of crays next year. It only takes 55 berried females to produce a crop of 600 lbs of crayfish (assuming 70% survival -- eg a crawfish growout). Crayfish are leverage forage because they grow really fast, have parental care during the early stages, and are energy dense. It takes a pretty good sized fish to eat adults. How long were you to wait to stock predators? BTW, Northerns don't burrow AFAIK but they might keep the pond turbid next year if the numbers are high.

Female Gam in pic 4..Bill has them in every pond he owns so good chance it came from there.
My recommendation was to wait on craws until some vegetation is established, after looking at the pond, it's in need of some aquatic veggies. Now that the craws are there we need to play hard-ball and start with some good sized bass
The LMB and HSB I have started to feed train and will be fairly advanced when stocked in the mid to late sept range.
The TGC that were stocked was extreme but we'll deal with it as we go!

SSJ,

We had a lot of speculation on the forum about fixing the banks of your pond.

I suspect several people would like to hear the problems and recommendations after an expert (Snipe) got eyeballs on the ground!

Good luck with your ongoing pond management.

Add this to your considerations.

Abstract. -- We attempted to control a population of papershell crayfish (Orconectes immunis) in an 11-hectare fish-rearing impoundment in Jackson County, Wisconsin, by using traps and by stocking largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides). Crayfish were harvested with traps during the summer of 1985, and the pond was stocked with 386 largemouth bass (mean weight, 1.1 kg) in spring 1986. The pond was drained in the fall of 1985 and 1986, and crayfish burrow counts were made to estimate the population. In 1985, we trapped more than 18,000 crayfish, of which 72% were adult males. Trapping had minor effect on the young-of-the-year crayfish. In 1986, the crayfish population was reduced by 98%, predation by largemouth bass being the probable major cause of the reduction.