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Thanks for all that information Snipe and very very happy your body is turning the corner and picking up steam too!

Wow, that hybrid sounds like a real winner and a wonderful discovery that can help thousands of pondowners. Most all small lakes around here are very eutrophic. They have too much runoff, too many weeds, too many skinny bass and bug-eyed bluegill and there is no way it will ever get back in balance. No one wants to catch and filet the tiny bluegill and we aren't allowed to cull the skinny bass. To make it worse they moved the legal LMB size from 12" to 14" They should have moved it down to 10"!!

But this type of warm water tolerant fish that targets the skinny bluegill and stunted crappie sounds fantastic.

Will it be a struggle to get other states to 'trust' this GMO fish? We still have hysteric paranoia in MI over tilapia and hybrid stripers, I'm wondering how long it will take each state to warm up to the idea of allowing SAE in public lakes and then what the struggle might be to allow private pond owners to pay an out of state fish truck to bring some in and stock them.

Are the young SAE hardy enough to put in a box and ship to another state for their reservoirs or stocking programs?

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CC, the SAE, as with WAE are not easy to ship and with the protocol involved, I probably won't even try that.
From the time they hatch you have 3 days to get them on plankton or they will not survive, but it might take 7 days to completely hatch out 1 jar, all fertilized at the same time, so keeping track of egg quantity in jar every 24 hrs is extremely important and what hatches in 72hrs is all that goes in to the grow-out they will be in for the next 5-6 months, with a fertilizer program started 2 weeks prior to stocking and every week after for 5 weeks. FHM are added to grow-outs at 4 weeks post hatch.
To go in and try to obtain 1.25" fish would be extremely time consuming and beings we lower water to extract, it would cause a lot of small fish to be lost during that process.
I wouldn't be against trying some fry in a feed tank with fry powder-I know guys do that with WAE in 1 or 2 farms, but it's a 24/7 job.
I'll think about that..

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Well for sure, make sure the program is successful and do what is best for the success rates.

I was just thinking if you make the program successful and can ramp it up, would there ever be enough for sales at fish farms out of state or would it only be for Kansas stocking situations?

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Wow, the knowledge and commitment are spectacular! Good luck with this endeavor and I hope it works well for you!

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Originally Posted by canyoncreek
Well for sure, make sure the program is successful and do what is best for the success rates.

I was just thinking if you make the program successful and can ramp it up, would there ever be enough for sales at fish farms out of state or would it only be for Kansas stocking situations?
I have health cert for the waters/fish I raise, so they can go anywhere allowed by the health cert..
Some of my grow-outs are on Colorado side of border so we had to provide the cert to them as well.. Luckily KS is in a good working relationship with CO so no issues there.
It will be handled on a case by case basis as we are testing for most items required by many states and not just our own. That in itself can get expensive.

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Sorry for all the questions!

I was curious if the saugeye females produce viable eggs and if pond with saugeye male/females only will produce viable young SAE?

IF the saugeye was planted in a larger BOW with walleye, would the walleye male fertilize the SAE female eggs and what are the characteristics of a hybride WAE-SAE female that crosses with a male WAE (or I guess it could happen the other way where a male SAE fertilizes normal walleye eggs)?

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I had the same kind of question as canyon.

Can the Saugeye reproduce in a pond, if we know?

Also, what do we think predates on Saugeye?


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Originally Posted by Sunil
I had the same kind of question as canyon.


Also, what do we think predates on Saugeye?

Humans for the adults. The smaller Saugeye, the same fish that would predate on YP.


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https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=197069&page=1

Dave Willis

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Jim -- lots of natural hybrids between walleye and sauger in our Missouri River and its reservoirs, too. Not from any purposeful saugeye stocking.

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TJ -- you are on-target except for limited reproductive ability. The hybrid (saugeye) is fertile, will back-cross with both parents, and will produce an F2 generation. That's what really stopped the momentum for them for sport fishing. For a while, I was hoping that someone was going to get into triploid saugeye to avoid the reproduction issue, but haven't heard anything about that lately.

The states of Ohio and Oklahoma really had some spectacular saugeye fisheries going in places where the walleye populations had been poor (turbid, high flow through). Other Midwestern states were interested and used them a little, but then the concern over the saugeyes getting into native walleye and sauger populations arose, and most states backed off on saugeyes. We used them up at Richmond Lake (880 impoundment) in SD, and really created a super black crappie fishery in a lake in which the crappies had been stunted for years (decades). We compared saugeye and walleye in a 22-acre pond near Brookings, and really saw no difference between them in this good habitat. However, it was really cool when my son caught that 30-inch saugeye last summer out there! As Cecil indicated on the other thread, we really don't expect reproduction by saugeye or walleye in ponds. However, the walleyes in one gravel pit north of town here do have a little trickle of natural recruitment. Every time we electrofish in the fall, we always got just a few age-0 fish that came from natural spawning.

Bill and Cecil -- I thought some of the early work on saugeye showed that they were easier to intensive culture than the walleye? Same thing with the tiger musky vs. the northern pike or muskellunge?

I checked with Mike Brown, our culture guy, and he wondered if Held had been using the new Otohime diet or something similar? Mike said his LMB really like it in his tank experiments. I think Otohime is the next generation of the Biokyowa diet, and that diet sure helped some of the intensive culture efforts.

We still end up at the same place. What would be the brood source for pure sauger and pure walleye for production of the hybrids?
















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Originally Posted by Sunil
I had the same kind of question as canyon.

Can the Saugeye reproduce in a pond, if we know?

Also, what do we think predates on Saugeye?
As I posted in the hybrid thread that was resurrected, yes, the "potential" to reproduce is still there, even with triploid saugeye, but it seems the same basic rules tend to follow suit with what we see with WAE.
we do have confirmation of 3 consecutive yrs of reproduction of triploid saugeye in 2 small impoundments now, so like everything else, I don't think it's smart to assume "never" but the likely hood of this occurring in a small pond of say, less than 25-30 acres would be very low UNLESS conditions were present to support perfect alignment.

ewest, appreciate the reference from Dave Willis. My Mentor in this project was a student of Dr. Willis's, and is now the director of our Percid program. He has a letter on his office wall framed, that Dr. Willis sent to him just prior to his graduation many many years ago. It's even more of an honor to get to work with someone that learned from Dr. Willis-The legacy continues!

Last edited by Snipe; 03/11/23 02:24 AM.
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CC, I didn't really answer your question about crossing back.. Yes, they sure can-if conditions are such that reproduction, hatch and recruitment can exist.
Now that we have confirmation of Triploid Saugeye reproducing, Triploids will no longer be produced. Kansas also does not stock SAE where WAE reproduce successfully anyway, so it would not be advised.

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Originally Posted by Snipe
CC, I didn't really answer your question about crossing back.. Yes, they sure can-if conditions are such that reproduction, hatch and recruitment can exist.
Now that we have confirmation of Triploid Saugeye reproducing, Triploids will no longer be produced. Kansas also does not stock SAE where WAE reproduce successfully anyway, so it would not be advised.

Were the Triploid Saugeye individually blood tested to prove they were all Triploids? If not, some could have been diploids and could have been responsible for the reproduction. Here in Indiana, ALL Triploid Grass Carp have to be individually tested, then 10% of that "lot" are re-checked by USF&W people before a triploid certificate will be issued for that lot of fish.


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There's no individual testing because most are stocked as fry and there just isn't room to grow out the number used.
I should add that the reproducing populations were tested. I think this is the end of triploid saugeye for KS.

Last edited by Snipe; 03/18/23 07:01 PM.
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