Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
jessmendez, TEC, SonnyT, AFGJDM, Legiboka
17,993 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,139
Posts546,951
Members17,994
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 27,325
ewest 21,189
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 14,649
Who's Online Now
1 members (Bobbss), 451 guests, and 95 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#528024 11/25/20 01:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
OP Offline
Hall of Fame
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
I've always run water tests a couple of times a year since we've had this place. I was a little remiss in doing multiple tests in 2018 and 2019 but still was fairly well on top of my pond water chemistry nonetheless.

Every year, we stock RBT in late fall for the Project Healing Water folks. This year, I did a water sample in August and the alkalinity was the lowest its ever been. I normally add 20 tons of lime every 3-4 yrs or so when the alkalinity drops below 20 or so but this year I dumped in only 10 tons of lime (in 4.6 acre pond) late August because I feared a high alkalinity spiking that might adversely affect my upcoming RBT stocking. When I received my most recent post-lime test results, I am stunned that the alkalinity hasn't even budged while other test areas fluctuated wildly from the August test. Having seen the significant rise in alkalinity from previous liming, I am totally baffled by this. I've attached the spreadsheet I use to track all of my water samples so you can see what has happened in the past post-liming vs this latest round.

For reference purposes, I am using the same lab I have always used. Collecting the sample from pretty much the same area of the pond, ie between two aerators in the middle, I always have. The only small difference may be that I have typically used those TSA 4oz plastic liquid bottles you get at Walmart for my water samples. For the last two samples, Walmart was out of the bottles so I bought a four-pack from CVS and they were a different brand.

As for the lime, I have always used AgLime and purchased it from the same Co-op that I have always used in the past. I order it by the truckload. Before they arrive, I move one of my aerators close to the point on the lake. The spreader truck shows up, backs up to the point, and blows the lime out into the pond and the aerators help circulate it. Within 45 min- 1hour, the entire pond has a milky appearance and remains that way for a day or so.

A couple of questions...could I have some how contaminated one or both samples? I've never heard of a 'bad batch' of lime but is that possible?

Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance for your responses and Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Warmest Regards,
Paul

Attached Images
combinedwaterpb.xlsx (14.92 KB, 184 downloads)
SHA1: 38d6949811280008da6b1d1c43714acac7bc7bef
Last edited by Freedomeagle; 11/25/20 01:34 PM.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,105
Likes: 379
F
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
F
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,105
Likes: 379
Your pH still looks OK(?)

Did you have a flood event in the spring or summer this year that washed in some nasty deposits? For instance, cattle feedlot, construction project, significant amounts of decayed plant debris from someone's pond upstream, or any other unusual event?

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
OP Offline
Hall of Fame
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
FishinRod, you're right about the pH. That even baffles me more. We did have some heavy rains with some serious outflow of water but don't think its enough to dilute the alkalinity to zero but I guess possible Although, AgLime dissolves over time so I can't imagine it all being gone.

The lake sits in a bowl and is basically fed by runoff, all forested, and a few underground springs. Fortunately, nothing 'nasty' in our runoff areas.

The other thing unique to this year is that I had a pretty significant hyrdilla growth this year and the 'die off' was occuring about the time of the water sample. But again, I just can't see how there is zero change in the alkalinity

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,105
Likes: 379
F
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
F
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,105
Likes: 379
Forest ponds tend to have more tannin in the water from the decay of the organics. Humic substances chemistry gets very complicated very quickly. A little bit of the forest floor could have washed in during the heavy rain events.

Did your pond water ever take on more of a "tea color" after the floods? I guess the weak acids could have used up all of your lime buffering capacity without moving your pH too far or harming your fish. (No fish kills, I presume.)

As regards the hydrilla die off - All of the experts get worried about the dissolved oxygen depletion during vegetation die offs. I have never heard of a water "chemistry" crisis from the plants that resulted in harm to the fish. (But my knowledge is very limited on that topic.)

Hopefully, one of the chemistry experts here will wander into your thread.

*** I did just remember one more thing from a college chemistry professor. He said that when you get a very strange result - run your test again!

Good luck with your RBT. You need lots of hungry ones in your pond for the Healing Waters vets! It is very cool that you do that charity. cool

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
OP Offline
Hall of Fame
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
FishindRod, I misspoke a tad earlier. I just doublechecked my records and the water sample was actually drawn and sent off the day before the heavy rainfall. With that said, yes, the heavy runoff did produce the "tea color" and I never equated that with the tannic acid in the runoff. Thanks for the 'edumication" on that issue.

No fish kill, in fact, the RBT are still very active at the feeders.

I am going to re-test. I talked to the lab about that yesterday. I have some extra BPA-free, sterilized honey jars leftover from my honey extraction this year and I am going to use one of those for the repeat water sample.

I'm still a bit befuddled by this, particularly with no discernible swing in the pH.

Thanks again for your input.

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
OP Offline
Hall of Fame
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
I got the retest results back and I am still baffled, particularly with almost an 9x decrease in the amount of potassium. Makes no sense to me. To make matters worse, I bought a couple of bottles of those water test strips for pools and the test strips show the alkalinity in the 80-120 range....and the trout are still aggressively feeding and from all I have read, they shouldn't be if the alkalinity is as low as the lab results show.

Attached Images
waterretest11292020.xlsx (10.44 KB, 143 downloads)
SHA1: 9f6efca43914072bf5e74c0d3e9c02866c287a11
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,855
Likes: 302
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,855
Likes: 302
98 ppm potassium has to be an error. I believe the 8.8 to be acceptable. 2 to 16 seems to be a normal range for Potassium. 8.8 is not "H", 98.anything is extremely high and I'm not sure it's even possible.
Back in 2014 you had 9.8 and 11.2 both listed as "high", then median values of 2-4 as medium. I strongly believe the 98.8 is an error.
There are 2 standards for testing this, one is for soil, one is for water, 1-50ppm being lower and upper limit on water, yet commonly 300-500ppm in the soil adjacent to pond. It gets fairly complicated on how the soil interacts with water and how potassium is figured.
To me it looks like there are a lot of irregularities in the test results but that is only my opinion.

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
OP Offline
Hall of Fame
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
Thanks Snipe. I have decided to not lose any more sleep over this for two reasons. Over the last week or so, I have tested the water using different types of pool test strips. All showed the alkalinity and pH in the desired range. Secondarily, we measured and weighed 20 of the 200 RBT when we put them in about month ago. They averaged around 92% of their relative weights. Since Friday, we caught 12 and measured and weighed each. All were 98% or better, with the highest 115%, of their relative weights. Granted, this is not a 100% scientific sampling but it was enough to give me a better piece of mind.

Thanks again to all for your input.

Merry Christmas to all,
Paul

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,189
Likes: 187
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,189
Likes: 187
Here is some info. I dont think your alkalinity dropped from 60 to 1.5 like that. There are other inconsistencies as well. See below.

[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

Last edited by ewest; 12/14/20 12:06 PM.















Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
OP Offline
Hall of Fame
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 92
Likes: 1
Thanks Ewest. FYI, the lab results you posted are from the same lab I have been using. I can tell by the format.They have always been very good and I am just baffled by the results in the original test as well as the retest...from the same lab BTW.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,189
Likes: 187
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,189
Likes: 187
That is one standard format used. One above is from LSU ag.

See SRAC fact sheet

https://srac.tamu.edu/fact-sheets/serve/262

Last edited by ewest; 12/14/20 12:23 PM.















Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 676
Likes: 122
G
Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 676
Likes: 122
I hope its OK to bring up this older thread, it is in the category that fits my question.

So I did a water test on my pond and got my report back but the reading is kinda confusing, I researched thru these pages to find a chart on what the optimal readings would be, I found a SRAC link for interpretations of water analysis that was put on here by Ewest I believe, could be wrong about that, its not very legible but for starters it says optimum Alkalinity would be from 50.00 to 150.00 mg/l, very low would be under 25, My results say my Alk is .98 mg/l am I that far off, that I really have less then 1.00? My Ph is at 7.26. other then my PH, all my results are in mg/l readings
https://i.imgur.com/pPWMn9E.jpg
Sorry I dont know how to make the picture show straight up, just a link, Thanks in advance!

Last edited by gehajake; 01/25/23 08:23 AM.

All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,099
Likes: 153
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,099
Likes: 153
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 27,325
Likes: 472
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 27,325
Likes: 472
Ummm, hardness is NOT the same thing as alkalinity.......

https://www.knowyourh2o.com/indoor-...kalinity,same%20as%20pH%20or%20Hardness.

Also, it's saying your hardness is 98, NOT .98. Take a look at all the other readings that are below 1. They are expressed as 0.xxx There is a 0 before the decimal point.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 27,325
Likes: 472
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 27,325
Likes: 472
Here is some info for you. The range that you want to be in is at the right.

NH3 = Ammonia 0-2mg/l
CL = chloride 10:1 CL to NO2
SO4 = Sulfate 0-1,000 (0-500 if watering cattle)
NO2 = Nitrite 0-1
NO3 = Nitrate 0.005 - 0.5 mg/l (but can be up to 90 mg/l without harming the fish for a short length of time). Ideal is <0.10mg/L
SiO2 = Silica 5-25 mg/l
SRP = Soluble Reactive Phosphorous this is what feeds plants and algae should not exceed 0.020 mg/L
TP = Total Phosphorous 0.01 - 0.075 mg/l
TKN = Total Kjeldahl Nitrogen 2-6 mg/l
COND = Conductivity 100-2,000
SS = Suspended Solids There is no widely acceptable max reading, but you want a secchi disc reading to be in the 12”-36” range.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,649
Likes: 289
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,649
Likes: 289
The lab tech made an error (hand written) on the data bench sheet. They wrote .98 and they should not have used the decimal. Your alkalinity is at least 98.0 due to the bicarbonate test reading. Basically bicarbonate and carbonate = Alkalinity. When lime dissolves is water it creates ions of bicarbonate, calcium, and magnesium (ions hardness below). Thus your bicarbonate reading was 98 and carbonate was 0 so 98+0= 98. The bicarbonate at times can combine with calcium and magnesium ions to form precipitates that lowers alkalinity (bicarbonate). The total hardness is also high at 92 which is 'often' closely related to alkalinity and usually indicates "good" alkalinity.

Total Hardness note: Total hardness is a measure of the calcium and magnesium concentrations in water. There are some other divalent ions (those with 2+ charges) that cause total hardness but these are "usually" low amounts. The amount of calcium hardness is important in pond fertilization because higher rates of phosphorus fertilizer are required at higher calcium hardness amounts.

If you have added lime to the pond, you should retest your bicarbonate every 2-3 yrs and depending on amount of lime that is usually needed raise the alkalinity,,,,, testing could be done each year to monitor how fast the alkalinity is decreasing.
For various reasons alkalinity is lost from the pond:
1. The acidic bottom soil will consume bicarbonate and that gradually lowers alkalinity.
2. Pond overflows or outflows reduce bicarbonate (alkalinity) due to loss of water (outflows).
3. Low alkalinity water of the inflows from water shed soil also dilutes alkalinity.
4. Rain has almost no alkalinity thus rain dilutes or lowers alkalinity.
5. Ammonia denitrification into nitrate can also reduce alkalinity.
6. Decomposition of bottom organics creates acidic conditions that tends to lower alkalinity.

In areas that have limestone based soils the ponds naturally have high alkalinity due to runoff and the high lime contained in the soil basin forming the pond. The majority of ponds in my region use a thick layer of limestone to line the entire top 6ft of pond basin (wave zone and protect soil stabilization - erosion) . This helps keep alkalinity high in these ponds.

See explanations in this link to help you understand water chem reports
https://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Understanding-Your-Fish-Pond-Water-Analysis-Report.pdf

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/25/23 02:09 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 676
Likes: 122
G
Offline
G
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 676
Likes: 122
Originally Posted by Bill Cody
The lab tech made an error (hand written) on the data bench sheet. They wrote .98 and they should not have used the decimal. Your alkalinity is at least 98.0 due to the bicarbonate test reading. Basically bicarbonate and carbonate = Alkalinity. When lime dissolves is water it creates ions of bicarbonate, calcium, and magnesium (ions hardness below). Thus your bicarbonate reading was 98 and carbonate was 0 so 98+0= 98. The bicarbonate at times can combine with calcium and magnesium ions to form precipitates that lowers alkalinity (bicarbonate). The total hardness is also high at 92 which is 'often' closely related to alkalinity and usually indicates "good" alkalinity.

Total Hardness note: Total hardness is a measure of the calcium and magnesium concentrations in water. There are some other divalent ions (those with 2+ charges) that cause total hardness but these are "usually" low amounts. The amount of calcium hardness is important in pond fertilization because higher rates of phosphorus fertilizer are required at higher calcium hardness amounts.

If you have added lime to the pond, you should retest your bicarbonate every 2-3 yrs and depending on amount of lime that is usually needed raise the alkalinity,,,,, testing could be done each year to monitor how fast the alkalinity is decreasing.
For various reasons alkalinity is lost from the pond:
1. The acidic bottom soil will consume bicarbonate and that gradually lowers alkalinity.
2. Pond overflows or outflows reduce bicarbonate (alkalinity) due to loss of water (outflows).
3. Low alkalinity water of the inflows from water shed soil also dilutes alkalinity.
4. Rain has almost no alkalinity thus rain dilutes or lowers alkalinity.
5. Ammonia denitrification into nitrate can also reduce alkalinity.
6. Decomposition of bottom organics creates acidic conditions that tends to lower alkalinity.

In areas that have limestone based soils the ponds naturally have high alkalinity due to runoff and the high lime contained in the soil basin forming the pond. The majority of ponds in my region use a thick layer of limestone to line the entire top 6ft of pond basin (wave zone and protect soil stabilization - erosion) . This helps keep alkalinity high in these ponds.

See explanations in this link to help you understand water chem reports
https://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Understanding-Your-Fish-Pond-Water-Analysis-Report.pdf
Bill Cody, sorry I forgot to mention the last two values that were on this chart were silica and Alkalinity and the printer cut them off of the bottom of the chart so I just hand wrote them myself to the right of the chart. I should have clarified that, but it was 98 on Alkalinity, not .98, I read it wrong, you are right. Im not sure how I misread that. I printed off that article that you referenced and will study it a little more when I have the time. Thank you guys for clarifying that for me! really appreciate it!


All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
A.K.A., Charles Crews, rrambo, Todd_B
Recent Posts
Retirement ponds
by esshup - 01/31/23 11:56 PM
Kubota, LS, Branson & Mahindra Tractors
by esshup - 01/31/23 10:16 PM
Iced Over
by esshup - 01/31/23 10:09 PM
Cattle Ranch Ponds
by esshup - 01/31/23 10:06 PM
Question on Christmas trees
by esshup - 01/31/23 09:57 PM
Creating a lake budget.
by esshup - 01/31/23 09:56 PM
Bass are tearing up the shad
by ewest - 01/31/23 12:52 PM
What did you do at your pond today?
by Pat Williamson - 01/31/23 12:31 PM
New 1.5 Ac pond in NC. YP for harvest is my goal.
by BCR Pond - 01/31/23 10:30 AM
Rainbow trout to grow big bass.
by esshup - 01/31/23 09:41 AM
Adding Vegetation
by Bill Cody - 01/30/23 11:11 AM
How to catch catfish in a bucket
by esshup - 01/30/23 11:05 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Alligator Ice
Alligator Ice
by Theo Gallus, December 30
Union Valley
Union Valley
by TX Chris, December 19
Pond Renovation
Pond Renovation
by ArkieJig, December 15
Test_Pic_Again
Test_Pic_Again
by FireIsHot, December 14
Pumpkinseeds From Pond
Pumpkinseeds From Pond
by Perch Pond, December 11
Help Me ID These Fish
Help Me ID These Fish
by LarryBud, December 3

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5