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Originally Posted By: gehajake
Might be a dumb question here, if you do have a layer, buildup, of the copper sulfate on the bottom of your pond, will that not prevent future infestations of moss? or does it become ineffective? just curious, Thanks.


A large percentage of the copper, because of its density, ends up on the bottom of your pond. This leads to sterilization of the most important part of your ponds ecosystem, the bottom.

The solubilization of copper precipitates allows it to continuously impact your pond's ecosystem, especially bottom dwelling organisms. Copper precipitates will also enter the water column through solubilization.

In other words, once you put copper in your pond, you might as well name it because it will be there affecting your pond longer than you will.

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Following Eric's directions, I collected a jar of water from off the dock and set it in the sun to see when it would start getting some color to it. By evening it had started turning a light shade of green. The pond has already started putting on that oily film on the surface again, which usually leads to a scummy green slime covering the pond.

Poured 1/2g of bacteria/enzyme into a bucket of well water and dispersed it around the pound. Now it's a waiting game to see if and how long its gonna take to see results.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Mike - I'm feeling for ya, and hoping that your new'ish pond weirdness dissipates soon. I know it's weighing on you. Is it possible that the pond will settle in on it's own with age? My pond had crazy algae blooms the first two years in the spring, but this year has been skipped (so far) for some reason. Besides adding aeration last year, the only other factors have been up to mother nature.

I'm rooting for you!


Fish on!,
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
IMO the srac.tamu FactSheet noted above is outdated and was based on too few old studies that examined copper effects on larger common test invertebrates and fish.


Bill I agree SRAC fact sheets can become out dated. However this one contains the following

"SRAC fact sheets are reviewed annually by the Publications, Videos and Computer Software Steering Committee. Fact sheets are revised as
new knowledge becomes available. Fact sheets that have not been revised are considered to reflect the current state of knowledge."

SRAC Publication No. 361
February 2013
Revision "

I do agree there are many unknowns as to CS. Some of my experience does not match exactly what the FS says.
















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good luck MIke, I am about to go to war with mine. It sure can be a pain.
Dave


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The strongest advice I can give anyone at this point is to stay on top of your nutrient load, particularly phosphorus, as it can and will create a lot of algae problems. I partially blame myself for not running my aeration 24/7 thru the cooler months when water temps weren't an issue. I put my pump up and didnt run it at all. The little money I saved by not running it has been more than tripled in the cost of chemicals....and a lot of aggravation.

I've learned that being a good neighbor by allowing my neighbor's watershed to flow thru my pond is causing me more grief than it's worth. If I could figure out how to divert his runoff, or filter it before it reached my pond, that would be my next big project. He's assured me he doesn't do anything to his yard but what comes off his property has been responsible for every flushing my pond has seen. Not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing.

If you're dead set on using chemicals, particularly anything copper based, use them VERY SPARINGLY.

On a good note...the pond has 5 new resident plants this evening. My order of hybrid lilies arrived from Texas today and are now soaking up as much nutrient as their little hearts desire.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Anybody have experience with using alum to tie up the phosphorus to address heavy FA infestation?

I understand the concerns with too much copper in your BOW but, when you have so much FA that you can't fish the pond....IMHO trade offs must be considered. My preference is to never have to resort to chemicals for any purpose in our pond but, in the absence of a viable alternative, we may have no choice. To those folks that have offered opinions about the undesirable effects of copper sulfate, I salute you and agree, but, I also suspect you have never experienced seeing 3/4 of your pond surface being covered in thick FA mats. That was the condition of our puddle a few weeks back. We raked off what we could and hit it with copper sulfate and we are now FA free. Did we impact the bottom of our food chain? I'm sure we did but, I can supplemental feed the gills and have a pond I can fish. Isn't fishing the ultimate objective for most of us?

Last edited by Bill D.; 06/19/19 09:20 PM. Reason: clarification

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I wish it was FA I was dealing with Bill. My pond is small enough I could place an air mover on the dock, blow it all to the opposite shore and rake it out. Labor intensive, but doable.

This mess is purely planktonic and bordering on blue green algae.

I've started investigating Phoslock, but dang that stuff is expensive!!


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Alum/hydrated lime/algaecide treatments are very helpful to bind and drop phosphorous and knock out dense phytoplankton blooms. Had Rex do that for me a couple seasons ago, figured I gained at least 5 years of water quality life following treatment. For small ponds it's not an expensive project considering the benefits.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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TJ... guess I missed the discussion on locking phosphorus with alum/hydrated lime. I knew it was used to settle suspended clay and to help clear water turbidity. My visibility is very good and I've never had a clay issue after the pond filled the first time.

I dont have a problem doing the treatment myself if I knew how much of each to use on approximately 1 acre foot of water (probably bit less).

Is it possible to use small amounts of hydrated lime or alum alone to get the same results? I have to assume at this point that an alum/HL treatment is not going to destroy the bottom of the pond's ecosystem?

Last edited by Mike Whatley; 06/20/19 04:32 AM.

.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Anybody have experience with using alum to tie up the phosphorus to address heavy FA infestation?

I understand the concerns with too much copper in your BOW but, when you have so much FA that you can't fish the pond....IMHO trade offs must be considered. My preference is to never have to resort to chemicals for any purpose in our pond but, in the absence of a viable alternative, we may have no choice. To those folks that have offered opinions about the undesirable effects of copper sulfate, I salute you and agree, but, I also suspect you have never experienced seeing 3/4 of your pond surface being covered in thick FA mats. That was the condition of our puddle a few weeks back. We raked off what we could and hit it with copper sulfate and we are now FA free. Did we impact the bottom of our food chain? I'm sure we did but, I can supplemental feed the gills and have a pond I can fish. Isn't fishing the ultimate objective for most of us?


You know what is even better than fishing? Eating 100% fresh fish unadulterated of chemicals and not having to worry about a state warning I should only eat 2/week.

The problem with anything you put in your pond is, it usually just kicks the can down the road and makes another can you have to kick, then another and another and soon enough, you have a job in your back yard.

It's common knowledge why FA mats develop. Most is attributed to the watershed that feeds/supplements the pond. I need my watershed for those nutrients but not before I strain it through one of these:

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/national/newsroom/features/?cid=nrcs143_023525

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Basics !

Each pond is different and each owner is entitled to make his/her decisions. Our collective job is to help inform so each one can make their best choice.

FA is based on nutrients , water and light - remove any one and the plant is limited. Keep in mind that the water sits on dirt and acts as a very good solvent.

There are many types of FA and there are differences.

Here is the archive link to FA. It needs updating.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92633#Post92633

Last edited by ewest; 06/20/19 09:54 AM.















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Originally Posted By: ewest
Basics !

Each pond is different and each owner is entitled to make his/her decisions. Our collective job is to help inform so each one can make their best choice.

FA is based on nutrients , water and light - remove any one and the plant is limited. Keep in mind that the water sits on dirt and acts as a very good solvent.

There are many types of FA and there are differences.

Here is the archive link to FA. It needs updating.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92633#Post92633


Well said, "FA is based on nutrients..." Besides nitrogen and phosphorus, most require to a lesser degree, iron, zinc and manganese.

Easiest way to reduce all of those from entering your pond, stop mowing. When I can do nothing and receive a net benefit, I am all in.

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As far as I know, every type of algae production are based on those three elements (sun, nutrients and water). The way my pond was dug, FA has a very limited area where it is able to grow as the sides drop off very quickly over 90% of the shoreline. I do have some FA, but it is minimal and I dont really have an issue with what little I have. I can easily rake out most of it in an hour or so. Because FA cant really get a strong foothold, PA has taken advantage of the nutrient load. To the point where CS treatments barely last a week. If I can make it thru this summer without stroking over this scum, aeration will be running 24/7 until the temps come up again. If I can get by without ever using CS again, I will be a very happy man.

I do mow around my pond and make sure the vast majority of it is discharged away from the pond. Even weedeating doesnt throw much refuse into the pond. I get a ton of leaves in the fall tho. The watershed coming from next door passes thru about 20 feet of wild growth of trees and grasses that have been allowed to grow at will...a natural privacy fence if you will. All that water is directed to enter my pond at one point thru a shallow ditch. It very seldom adds any color to my pond, and even then its minimal and clears in a few days.

I am trying to figure out what else I can do to filter that inflow before it enters my pond. Bog type plants in the current state wont work because once the inflow drains off the ground dries up very fast and it is sand/clay. Probably going to have to dig it out and supplement that soil with peat and gravel so it holds moisture better and the water can be better filtered before getting to the pond, which is about 30 feet. I have wild Iris on my property that can be transplanted to that location, if I can make the area suitable for them.

I have been researching Alum as a floculant and have found some interesting perspectives, both for and against using it. Regardless of whether its CS or Alum, your only treating the symptoms of the issue, and until you correct the problem, those symptoms will continue to recur.

Last edited by Mike Whatley; 06/20/19 03:07 PM.

.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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As I see other ponds in the area, I've noticed that those that are open to wind activity are less prone to having a surface algae issue. One of the problems this pond has is it doesnt get enough surface agitation from wind. I'm wondering if hanging a submersible pump from my dock and having it spray out over the surface will improve the situation.

My thoughts are to set it up to run during the day and allow my aeration to run at night. My concern is how deep that agitation will push warm water if I'm using the top couple of feet to spray over the surface? Anyone have any experience with this sort of setup?


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Mike, I can't help much, but I think if you did some reading on "swimming pond natural filtration" you would find many ideas for filtering your water with plants, gravel, fountains, and such. I am sure this means $$$, but it would certainly be an educational read and could yield some possible solutions for you. I can't help but think that a natural filtration system would be better designed if the water was pumped and allowed to flow back in rather than relying on periodic in-flow through the system. Slower constant flow can be filtered much better (and controlled off an on) compared to the high flows of an in-rush.

I do not understand what happens when the "natural filter" loads up with what it's filtering out...I guess you have to excavate and start over. It's not like you can pull the filter and replace it with one from the hardware store.

There's your $0.02 back I borrowed!


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Hey QA. Looking at it from a natural perspective, a bog or wetland area basically filters out all of the nutrients that run thru it, it's the sediments that fill it in over time that causes the death of that area as it is, transforming it into something else, just like muck does in a pond. I'm sure I would have to "refurbish" the area periodically. Dig it out and start over.

I'm putting something together in my head that may be able to do both (capture runoff and filter the pond) by creating a bog area where that runoff enters my fence line and using a waterfall pump to cycle pond water back thru it.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Mike is definitely onto something. Phytoremediation is highly effective and through bio degradation won't turn wetlands into an EPA superfund site unless you are capturing heavy metals or PCB's.

I would think your next biggest water quality issue is the high protein pellets used to feed fish. Hypothetically, if you are feeding fish at a rate of 2.5% of body weight, increasing the rate to 2.8% would increase the organic nitrogen load in your pond sediment by 20%.

Like most pets, people tend to overfeed them and I doubt pet fish are any different.

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Originally Posted By: Joey Quarry
Mike is definitely onto something. Phytoremediation is highly effective and through bio degradation won't turn wetlands into an EPA superfund site unless you are capturing heavy metals or PCB's.

I would think your next biggest water quality issue is the high protein pellets used to feed fish. Hypothetically, if you are feeding fish at a rate of 2.5% of body weight, increasing the rate to 2.8% would increase the organic nitrogen load in your pond sediment by 20%.

Like most pets, people tend to overfeed them and I doubt pet fish are any different.


I can honestly say what I feed in pellets and Black Soldier Fly Larvae Meal is miniscule compared to what most are feeding. Every pellet is gone in 5 minutes. I try not to feed too heavily so they larger fish will still play their part as predators on the fry and YOY.

After sleeping on my thoughts of wind aeration (and my lack of it), today I installed a 4/10hp waterfall pump with a PVC nozzle to add some surface agitation during the day. The pump is pulling water from about 2' deep off the dock. My hopes are that I'll only be circulating surface water and not adding any heat to depth.


[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/1byyEa86F92U1B7fA[/img]

After less than a hour, all that scum has been pushed to the far side of the pond.

[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/9ZiJumd77UFmAkQm6[/img]

Last edited by Mike Whatley; 06/21/19 03:32 PM.

.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Mike, I have been reading your soldier fly thread with great interest. Whenever I read your posts, I am impressed by the methods you use to naturally control environmental conditions. SFL is something I am looking into, thanks to you.

"Nutrient Pollution" is mostly impacted by the watershed, feed and total fish. If you feed fish, algae blooms are the price you pay. A percentile of high protein feed ultimately ends up becoming nutrient pollution in the sediment layer, primarily from uneaten food and secondly, fish excrement. Eventually, the bottom becomes anoxic due to TAN buildup.

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I think that's what started my trouble, Joey. I didnt give any thought to what last year's feeding program, extrapolated by a ton of leaves last fall, and not running my aeration 24/7 as soon as the temps started cooling off.

All that waste just sat on the bottom and fermented and I'm paying the price for my lack of judgement now. One thing I've figured out tho...in a small pond it doesn't take much to make things swing either way, but when they swing bad...its usually real bad. Thankfully I haven't lost any fish due to my shortsightedness yet.

The BSFL project has been an interesting experiment so far. I'm still learning something every day.

Last edited by Mike Whatley; 06/21/19 04:59 PM.

.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Mike is correct the dissolved copper binds with algae, organics, other living things such as zooplankton, bacteria AND most importantly carbonate ions (alkalinity- hardness) in the water. As the dead organisms die they release the bound copper to eventually go into the sediments. The more that is added over time,,, the more that accumulates in the bottom sediments. Certain types of sediment chemistries can re-dissolve some of the bound copper from the sediments.


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