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Originally Posted by FishinRod
esshup,I thought we had a thread on Pond Boss showing that CNBG growth rates and recruitment diminished (compared to standard BG) as the pond locations moved north from about the latitude of north Texas.

I cannot find that thread now. (So I either have a faulty memory, or poor search skills!)

I have not seen a study on this with BG but that is highly likely from all reports I have seen.

Bill - "Since ewest reports the CNBG is a subspecie of BG,,, then I think the dominant genetics will be with the main specie pure strain BG and not the CNBG. Additional generation crosses will I think look more and more like "regular" BG as the "stand out traits"."

I would tend to agree , however that is the opposite of what studies are indicating on cousin species Fla LMB and NLMB.
















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Originally Posted by FishinRod
esshup,I thought we had a thread on Pond Boss showing that CNBG growth rates and recruitment diminished (compared to standard BG) as the pond locations moved north from about the latitude of north Texas.

I cannot find that thread now. (So I either have a faulty memory, or poor search skills!)

I have not seen a study on this with BG/CNBG but that is highly likely from all reports I have seen.

Bill - "Since ewest reports the CNBG is a subspecie of BG,,, then I think the dominant genetics will be with the main specie pure strain BG and not the CNBG. Additional generation crosses will I think look more and more like "regular" BG as the "stand out traits"."

I would tend to agree , however that is the opposite of what studies are indicating on cousin species Fla LMB and NLMB.

From an aged PB article;

THE CUTTING EDGE – SCIENCE REVIEW
By Eric West


Coppernose Bluegill vs. Regular Bluegill – which one for you?


A question we often get on the Pond Boss Forum is should I stock Regular Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus macrochirus or Coppernose Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus mystacalis also previously classified and referred to as Lepomis m. purpurescens . To answer that question we should look at the traits of both and use the one that will work best for the particular goals for the water in question. As we all know traits come from genetics. So what is the difference in the genetics of Coppernose vs. Regular Bluegill? Well it started a long time ago and it took a long time to get there. Here is the basic story. Millions of years ago peninsular Florida was, like it is today, connected to the mainland. Bluegill were present all over the eastern US. Sea level rose and peninsular Florida was cut off by the sea from the mainland creating two separate populations. Bluegill on both the mainland and on the peninsula continued to evolve separately each influenced by local conditions with a divergence time of roughly 2.3 million years. After a few million years of this separate path sea level fell and the two land masses were connected again. However the two bluegill sub-species were now a little different genetically. The rivers were connected and the two subspecies migrated and integrated in a zone along the deep southeast where the two sub-species mixed. If this sounds familiar it should – it’s the same story as the Florida Largemouth Bass and the Northern Largemouth Bass where the divergence time between Northern (M. salmoides) and Florida (M. floridanus) bass is approximately 2.8 million years. If you know one story you should have a fairly good idea of outcome of the other. Surely as a pond owner you have heard the bass story. Florida Bass get bigger under the proper circumstance and do not due well in cold climates. Yes Bluegill have a similar story.

Coppernose Bluegill get bigger under the right circumstance but do not flourish in colder climates. In fact Coppernose are susceptible to poor results and substantial winter kill in northern US regions as are Florida Largemouth Bass. So how do you tell Coppernose and Regular Bluegill apart. Take a look at the pictures included. The Coppernose has a copper band across its head/nose in adult males, has fewer and wider vertical bars, has orangish/red fin margins and tail coloration , 12 anal fin rays and often light/white fin edges most visible when young. The Regular Bluegill has 11 anal fin rays and none of the other traits mentioned.

So how do they compare? Here are some points from a study on the subject titled Performance Comparison between Coppernose and Native Texas Bluegill Populations by John A. Prentice and J. Warren Schlechte in the 2000 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 54 at pgs 196-206 looking at growth (size at age) , survival and catchability.

Coppernose Bluegill were significantly larger than Native Bluegill in all scenarios tested with the largest observed difference being 19.2 mm total length (.756 inch) and 33.5 grams ( 1.18 ounces) over 2 years. At 3 years there was a 16 mm (.63 inch) difference on average and at 4 years 24 mm (.945 inch). With other fish species present there was no difference in angling vulnerability between the types. Spawning activity of the brooders began at the same time (last week of Feb in 1995 and first week of March in 1997) and produced the same size offspring for tagging at the same time each year ( mid-April) in what appeared to be similar numbers. Survival of young of the year Coppernose was substantially greater than for Native Bluegill.

Before you draw to many conclusions note this was in Texas where the weather is close to that of the Coppernose’s native range. That is a critical key to success with Coppernose. While there is an often cited study titled Cold Tolerance in Two Subspecies of Bluegill by , A. J. Sonski , K. E. Kulzer , and J. A. Prentice, in the 1988 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 42 at pgs 120-127 , that states Coppernose and Native Bluegill have similar cold tolerances the key is the test was done on bluegill all from the same area (Texas). Its purpose was to determine if Coppernose could survive the Texas climate. There is substantial observed and anecdotal evidence that Coppernose do not do well in cold climates (roughly north of the north line of Arkansas/Tennessee extended) . In the far northern US Coppernose become subject to high winterkill rates. This would be consistent with their similar relationship to Florida Largemouth Bass which have repeatedly been tested to do poorly and die in cold climates. The study first cited above was also in ponds with no supplemental feeding. Reported scientific evidence is substantial that in ponds the most common cause of reduced growth is a shortage of food. It is not known how much, if any, of the early growth difference between the two sub-species was due to limited forage. The two sub species will integrate (inter-breed) with the offspring exhibiting mixed traits and no apparent negatives but there is very little published data on them.

So the answer to the question should I stock Coppernose Bluegill or Regular (native) Bluegill or both is – it depends. Your location (climate) and your goals are key factors. If you are in the Deep South or the Southwest (including Southern California) and not at high elevation (Appalachian, Rocky or Sierra Mountains) Coppernose should be considered. In short is your temperature profile similar to those areas? To some extent management practices and the existing bluegill population, if any, are also possible factors. Whichever type you choose keep in mind that the most important factor to growing nice bluegill is to be sure they have enough food to eat and not to much competition.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/27/22 12:05 PM.















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ewest - this above is a great refresher lesson for BG and CNBG. Lusk provides knowledgeable insight as to the likely genetic purity of the of the Arkansas CNBG; as most likely after numerous generations they have become some sort of hybrid CNBG.

I like the part of ewest's lesson that says - The two sub species will integrate (inter-breed) with the offspring exhibiting mixed traits and no apparent negatives but there is very little published data on them. Two subspecies being BG Lepomis macrochirus macrochirus and CNBG Lepomis macrochirus mystacialis (L.m.purpurescens).

"Mixed traits" being an important factor in our above discussion. Mixed traits to me means the offspring will show various physical or visual traits from the genetic combination.

For esshup - The only way you will know the percentage of CNBG in the AK fish you buy is to have them genetically tested.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/27/22 12:11 PM.

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ewest - Thanks for tracking down that article.

(Perhaps that is what I remembered reading?)

Definitely good to re-post that again on the forum. I suspect it will be read many times in the future by people pondering their BG choices.

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Bill I have thought for years that the Ark CNBG is a multi-generation adaptation of Fla CNBG. The Fla CNBG were brought to Ark by hatcheries around 20 years ago and have adapted to the cold a little. Who knows what other adaptations have occurred.

There are threads here on the subject.

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=8705&Number=90843#Post90843

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=132124


https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthre...p;Board=20&main=6791&type=thread


Here is some more from previous threads

Evolution
Vol. 28, No. 1, Mar., 1974
Biochemical Genetics...
Biochemical Genetics of Sunfish. I. Geographic Variation and Subspecific Intergradation in the Bluegill, Lepomis macrochirus
John C. Avise and Michael H. Smith
Evolution
Vol. 28, No. 1 (Mar., 1974), pp. 42-56


Abstract
Electrophoretic variation in proteins encoded by 15 genetic loci was analyzed in 2415 bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus) repsenting 47 populations from 7 Southern states. Populations from the Florida peninsula and southeastern Georgia (L. m. purpurescens) {CNBG} differ in allelic composition at several loci from populations in central and western Georgia west to Texas (L. m. macrochirus) { regular BG}, yielding coefficients of genetic similarity below the range generally found for continuously distributed conspecific populations in other vertebrates, but quite comparable to previous reports for various semispecies pairs. Populations of L. m. purpurescens are essentially monomorphic for Es-3100 and Got-258, while populations of L. m. macrochirus are segregating for Es-396 and Es-392, and are fixed for Got-2100. Within several river drainages in South Carolina and eastern Georgia, bluegill populations are segregating for all of these alleles. In particular, a highly significant correlation between frequencies of Got-258 and Es-3100 indicates that the two subspecies are intergrading in a wide zone of overlap. A closer examination of genotypic class proportions of a large population of bluegill from the intergrade zone confirms that the two subspecies are backcrossing and are apparently fully interfertile {able to interbreed with other species or subspecies and produce viable offspring}. Degrees of introgression appear equal for alleles at these loci. The high correlation in population allele frequencies across loci is compatable with the hypothesis that the alleles are behaving as neutral markers of intergradation. However, mildly significant deviations from expected genotypic proportions may indicate influences of selection. The pattern of intergradation evidences a secondary meeting of allopatrically evolved races. Since populations of pure L. m. purpurescens are largely confined to the Florida peninsula, it is likely that Pleistocene rises in sea level were important in their original isolation from L. m. macrochirus. Populations of bluegill within reservoirs are generally homogeneous for frequencies of common alleles at polymorphic loci. However, there is significant heterogeneity in allele frequencies between reservoirs within any drainage system. The magnitude of this variance is greatest in the intergrade populations within the Savannah River basin, and is far less in 'pure' samples of L. m. macrochirus. The bluegills examined may be characterized by three areas of relative regional uniformity, in which genetic differences within a drainage system are probably as great as those between drainage systems: 1) the Florida populations of L. m. purpurescens 2) the intergrade populations and 3) populations of L. m. macrochirus.

All Colored text my notes or edits.

Last edited by ewest; 09/28/22 12:38 PM.















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Originally Posted by FishinRod
esshup,

Are you using those CNBG as a pure experiment for your local conditions?

I thought we had a thread on Pond Boss showing that CNBG growth rates and recruitment diminished (compared to standard BG) as the pond locations moved north from about the latitude of north Texas.

I cannot find that thread now. (So I either have a faulty memory, or poor search skills!)

Yep, as a personal test. I have one small pond to put them in that only has Golden Shiners in it with some crayfish that will also have some small SMB, (it will be easy to seine in the Spring to see how they did) and in another pond that is about 6' deeper just to see if they survive the winter. They are 5"+ fish. That 2nd pond it will be interesting to see if they pull off a spawn if they DO survive.


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Originally Posted by Bill Cody
ewest - this above is a great refresher lesson for BG and CNBG. Lusk provides knowledgeable insight as to the likely genetic purity of the of the Arkansas CNBG; as most likely after numerous generations they have become some sort of hybrid CNBG.

I like the part of ewest's lesson that says - The two sub species will integrate (inter-breed) with the offspring exhibiting mixed traits and no apparent negatives but there is very little published data on them. Two subspecies being BG Lepomis macrochirus macrochirus and CNBG Lepomis macrochirus mystacialis (L.m.purpurescens).

"Mixed traits" being an important factor in our above discussion. Mixed traits to me means the offspring will show various physical or visual traits from the genetic combination.

For esshup - The only way you will know the percentage of CNBG in the AK fish you buy is to have them genetically tested.


Bill, these CNBG are coming from Anthony Kansas via Wetumka, OK ( I was told that they are the same species and have been in Kansas breeding for 18-20 years)


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These are the CNBG I have Bill..

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Originally Posted by Snipe
These are the CNBG I have Bill..

Snipe, you referred to your CNBG results upthread. Are they only in your ponds, or have you also been running them in client ponds?

If so, have you had good results in both?

The reason I ask, is that YOUR personal ponds have a different level of management than the average "managed" pond in Kansas. I am trying to evaluate how much difference that might make to successfully pulling fish through the stressful periods they experience in their lifetimes.

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I am interested how this turns out. Where Snipe is has much different weather than Anthony, KS.

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30 miles east of me, we stocked fish from Harbin (CNBG in question) they have done very well in 2 of the coldest winters on record.
BUT.. as ewest pointed out to me, the growth potential of CNBG may never be seen in our climate.
The CNBG I stocked out in my pond are obvious when caught but off-spring is another thing.
I trap BG every day of the summer, there is always variation in colors-especially the opercular tab-some are just a black border (outline) instead of solid black. I haven't spent any time counting anal fin rays or trying to determine the differences, if there is any.
The days are short, projects are many. I can try and get some side pics of these fish for others to view.

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Originally Posted by Snipe
The days are short, projects are many. I can try and get some side pics of these fish for others to view.

Thanks for the additional info.

Please don't do any extra work during this busy time!

However, we sure would like to hear how they are doing the next time you make some interesting observation about your CNBG.

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Esshup and others with Adult Arkansas CNBG. Does anyone have good pictures of these as adults and not from hybrids produced within your pond? How close do they appear to southern CNBG?


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Pic coming, Bill....

NBG1,2,3
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

CNBG 1,2,3

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Possible BGxCNBG
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Snipe; 09/29/22 07:56 PM.
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Bump

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Bill:

I don't have any Arkansas CNBG in my pond. Maybe next year I can try a pond with some that don't have regular BG in it.


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Awesome info and pics.

Thanks to everyone that is posting information in this thread!

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I was reading a Texas A&M article about forage fish that Dr. Perca posted in another thread.

One section seemed relevant for this thread.

"Coppernose bluegill have been promoted by fish suppliers as a superior sport fish, and a study found that coppernose bluegill grew larger than east and west Texas bluegill when grown together in ponds. Laboratory tests have shown that the coppernose bluegill has the same cold tolerance as native Texas bluegill."

Forage Fish

The article was revised in 2008, so the information may have been supplanted by more recent studies - but no one has linked any directly on point recent studies in this thread.

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Snipe I like your pictures of various types of BG that you have. The CNBG look very similar or same basic coloration as regular southern CNBG previously shown in pictures of this forum. Evidently the AK sold CNBG are tolerant of your NW Kansas winter climate.

How long have you had these CNBG 1,2,3, and the age of those in your pictures.

How much ice cover do you normally get on your ponds?

Do you know the normal plant growing season for degree days in your part of the state?

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/01/22 12:07 PM.

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Bill,

I couldn't get the exact temperature data you requested, but found a decent proxy.

Here is the YTD average minimum temperature map for the U.S.

You can easily compare Snipe's location in NW Kansas to the location of the many know BG growers on the forum.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com</div>
<br>

<div class= Last edited by FishinRod; 10/01/22 12:46 PM.
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Here is the 30-year mean low temperature map. (Sorry, the one I use is only regional.)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com</div>
<br>

<div class= Last edited by FishinRod; 10/01/22 12:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by Bill Cody
Snipe I like your pictures of various types of BG that you have. The CNBG look very similar or same basic coloration as regular southern CNBG previously shown in pictures of this forum. Evidently the AK sold CNBG are tolerant of your NW Kansas winter climate.

How long have you had these CNBG 1,2,3, and the age of those in your pictures.

How much ice cover do you normally get on your ponds?

Do you know the normal plant growing season for degree days in your part of the state?
From NWS....

Frost date to frost date is 149 days.

The growing season in Goodland typically lasts for 5.3 months (164 days), from around May 1 to around October 11, rarely starting before April 10 or after May 19, and rarely ending before September 23 or after October 29.

This is 3rd full year with CNBG present, and I believe all are original stockers-stocked at 3-4" in 2020
When I ice up, commonly, I drive my 4-wheeler across pond. Have drilled holes to 13" but last year I barely had ice thick enough to walk on more than a month, but on and off.
All BG pics above are 2021 catch, I really didn't fish for BG much this year and only caught 2 big CNBG and 1 NBG. The BG in traps very so much I can't say if they are hybrids beyond a doubt. Possibly, when I do my fall net samples in a couple of weeks, I can take the time to spend on studying some 4-6" fish and see if I can find some identifiers visually.

Last edited by Snipe; 10/01/22 07:39 PM.
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We had frost here 2 or 3 nights ago. We had frost May 7th of this year IIRC. Not much difference in temp from Snipe.


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Snipe - Good beneficial and helpful information. Very good information about your frost free days, growing season and history of your CNBG. Thank you for sharing and posting.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/03/22 09:22 AM.

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Here from our Common Pond Q&A archives is some baseline information about growth of CNBG in the southern climate. esshup is now testing the growth of CNBG in Indiana. It will be very interesting to see what type of growth rate the Oklahoma Harbin Fish Farm strain of CNBG has in Indiana. If nothing else, the growing season for water temperatures will be a shorter time period for fish in northern Indiana. How close do you think the growth rate be for the southern and northern strains of CNBG??

Examples of optimum growth of southern copper nose bluegill - CNBG
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=431614#Post431614

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