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Joined: Mar 2017
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Originally Posted by ewest
I have done that and yes, it's worth it but check with people here for their results - don't just buy based on ads and websites.


Alrighty- anyone here recommend a supplier for south central KS? My dad has bought from Dunn's for yrs but that's always just been minnows and channel cats. Know nothing of their bass. Things I would like; best genetics possible, quality fish, and low risk of introducing disease to my pond.

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The LMB suppliers on my list that are close to you are:

Harbin Fish Farm
Culver's Fish Farm
Hartley Fish Farms (I don't know if they are still in business.)
Wallace Fish Farm

Moving to Oklahoma:

Moore's Fish Farm (east of Tulsa)
Dunn's
Plus others farther away.

I know nothing about the genetics/quality/service of any of the suppliers above.

Of course you always have Snipe (Kenny) at Aquatic Specialties as a valuable resource. He does not currently raise LMB. However, he may haul some LMB to eastern Kansas for a client at some future date. You might send him a PM with your contact info. If it ever works out that he is hauling less than a full load, it might help everyone to have him take a split load to your pond. (It never hurts to ask!)

Good luck turning your good bass pond into a great bass pond.

1 member likes this: anthropic
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Mark Harbin has real good fish. Hartley can provide LMB too but would be my second choice. Wallace and Culver has the same stock.

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catscratch,

If I recall correctly, your pond is still producing LMB > 20" and is well over 10 years of ages. So the first thing I will tell you is that "This is the exception ... and ... this is awesome". I think part of your success lies in the fact you have a good amount of water ~19 acres. This reduces littoral area/surface acre and probably lends to less LMB recruitment. So environmentally, your pond has been able sustain the production of memorable to trophy size LMB from recruits. It's not clear to what these results depended on population management efforts and whether you faithfully culled to reduce competition. But if those efforts in past were not significant ... it tells me that population management remains as a possible way to increase LMB size and RW.

So you have a good thing going I think and I would seriously question whether you can improve the genetics in your pond by introducing hatchery fish. The opposite may actually be true and it is possible that you could set your pond back by introducing new fish. Consider reading this reference beginning on page 9.. There is a wealth of information in this publication pertinent to Kansas as it was written by Kansas fishery biologists to plan Kansas fishery management in Kansas waters. Though pertaining to Kansas, there are also lessons for everyone entertaining the idea of introducing new genes to their water. But in particular I will reference two small excerpts:

Quote
Fisheries managers sometimes assume that introducing new genes into a population through stocking will result in increased growth, survival, or other superior qualities (ie. hybrid vigor). Unfortunately, this is not always true. In some cases, the resulting population may exhibit a lack of fitness to their environment (outbreeding depression) (Philipp et al. 2002). Outbreeding depression results when the progeny from parents with different genetic makeup have lower fitness than progeny from parents sharing the same genetics. In this case, adaptive genes in wild populations are displaced by genes that are adapted to some other locality or environment.

Quote
Future Actions

Stocking largemouth bass will be necessary to establish the species in new and renovated waters in Kansas. However, it would be irresponsible to introduce fish with no regard to their genetics (Philipp 1992). The introduction of FLMB alleles into NLMB populations may have provided fisheries benefits in southern states, but little published evidence exists to suggest that they would be an asset in Kansas waters. Our limited experience with FLMB in Kansas shows that their performance (and that of the hybrids produced by their interbreeding with NLMB) is poorer than that of NMLB.

Last edited by jpsdad; 07/31/22 09:14 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted by jpsdad
catscratch,

If I recall correctly, your pond is still producing LMB > 20" and is well over 10 years of ages. So the first thing I will tell you is that "This is the exception ... and ... this is awesome". I think part of your success lies in the fact you have a good amount of water ~19 acres. This reduces littoral area/surface acre and probably lends to less LMB recruitment. So environmentally, your pond has been able sustain the production of memorable to trophy size LMB from recruits. It's not clear to what these results depended on population management efforts and whether you faithfully culled to reduce competition. But if those efforts in past were not significant ... it tells me that population management remains as a possible way to increase LMB size and RW.

So you have a good thing going I think and I would seriously question whether you can improve the genetics in your pond by introducing hatchery fish. The opposite may actually be true and it is possible that you could set your pond back by introducing new fish. Consider reading this reference beginning on page 9.. There is a wealth of information in this publication pertinent to Kansas as it was written by Kansas fishery biologists to plan Kansas fishery management in Kansas waters. Though pertaining to Kansas, there are also lessons for everyone entertaining the idea of introducing new genes to their water. But in particular I will reference two small excerpts:

Quote
Fisheries managers sometimes assume that introducing new genes into a population through stocking will result in increased growth, survival, or other superior qualities (ie. hybrid vigor). Unfortunately, this is not always true. In some cases, the resulting population may exhibit a lack of fitness to their environment (outbreeding depression) (Philipp et al. 2002). Outbreeding depression results when the progeny from parents with different genetic makeup have lower fitness than progeny from parents sharing the same genetics. In this case, adaptive genes in wild populations are displaced by genes that are adapted to some other locality or environment.

Quote
Future Actions

Stocking largemouth bass will be necessary to establish the species in new and renovated waters in Kansas. However, it would be irresponsible to introduce fish with no regard to their genetics (Philipp 1992). The introduction of FLMB alleles into NLMB populations may have provided fisheries benefits in southern states, but little published evidence exists to suggest that they would be an asset in Kansas waters. Our limited experience with FLMB in Kansas shows that their performance (and that of the hybrids produced by their interbreeding with NLMB) is poorer than that of NMLB.

You are right; it is exceptional and I'm very lucky (Plus I really don't want to screw it up. Hence all the questions and research before I do ANYTHING). 30 yr old bow and 20"+ bass are caught occasionally. Sure would like 1 or 2 of them to get into the double digits. I'm a bowhunter fanatic. Plant food plots and do a lot to try to fill seasonal gaps in nutrition for the local deer. It's interesting to watch genetic consistencies and shifts in the wild herd. I no illusions that as a hunter I can change the genepool but having long term observations gives plenty of info. The closed system of a pond is somewhat different. I'm working to understand it better.
Thanks for the link and info. I haven't had time to read any of it yet but certainly will.

Last edited by catscratch; 07/31/22 01:15 PM.
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There are lots of good peer reviewed studies on the topic. Philipp is one author but there are others and not all of them agree. In short take all info with a grain of salt (caution). Philipp's writings as well as many others are one reason, I suggested against stocking FLMB/F-1s in your location. But just as important are the results of others in your area as well as common sense experience. I do know of some instances of success with mixed genetics in states with similar latitude over a decade +-. I think those to be an aberration and I would not suggest that others would be as lucky. While genetics are important, they are only part of the story. Proper management including lots of food in the right size for your goals are more likely the key.

I suggest you call Bob Lusk as he has had decades of experience with the subject in question all over the country. He took some Inslee fish - see below to many locations and had success. There are other good sources. Greg Grimes found me some Il. sourced Northern LMB and they have done well in the south.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Last edited by ewest; 08/01/22 11:37 AM.















1 member likes this: FishinRod
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Proper sized forage is usually the biggest limiter in a fish reaching it's max potential.

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Agree 100%


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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