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Originally Posted by ewest
I have done that and yes, it's worth it but check with people here for their results - don't just buy based on ads and websites.


Alrighty- anyone here recommend a supplier for south central KS? My dad has bought from Dunn's for yrs but that's always just been minnows and channel cats. Know nothing of their bass. Things I would like; best genetics possible, quality fish, and low risk of introducing disease to my pond.

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The LMB suppliers on my list that are close to you are:

Harbin Fish Farm
Culver's Fish Farm
Hartley Fish Farms (I don't know if they are still in business.)
Wallace Fish Farm

Moving to Oklahoma:

Moore's Fish Farm (east of Tulsa)
Dunn's
Plus others farther away.

I know nothing about the genetics/quality/service of any of the suppliers above.

Of course you always have Snipe (Kenny) at Aquatic Specialties as a valuable resource. He does not currently raise LMB. However, he may haul some LMB to eastern Kansas for a client at some future date. You might send him a PM with your contact info. If it ever works out that he is hauling less than a full load, it might help everyone to have him take a split load to your pond. (It never hurts to ask!)

Good luck turning your good bass pond into a great bass pond.

1 member likes this: anthropic
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Mark Harbin has real good fish. Hartley can provide LMB too but would be my second choice. Wallace and Culver has the same stock.

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catscratch,

If I recall correctly, your pond is still producing LMB > 20" and is well over 10 years of ages. So the first thing I will tell you is that "This is the exception ... and ... this is awesome". I think part of your success lies in the fact you have a good amount of water ~19 acres. This reduces littoral area/surface acre and probably lends to less LMB recruitment. So environmentally, your pond has been able sustain the production of memorable to trophy size LMB from recruits. It's not clear to what these results depended on population management efforts and whether you faithfully culled to reduce competition. But if those efforts in past were not significant ... it tells me that population management remains as a possible way to increase LMB size and RW.

So you have a good thing going I think and I would seriously question whether you can improve the genetics in your pond by introducing hatchery fish. The opposite may actually be true and it is possible that you could set your pond back by introducing new fish. Consider reading this reference beginning on page 9.. There is a wealth of information in this publication pertinent to Kansas as it was written by Kansas fishery biologists to plan Kansas fishery management in Kansas waters. Though pertaining to Kansas, there are also lessons for everyone entertaining the idea of introducing new genes to their water. But in particular I will reference two small excerpts:

Quote
Fisheries managers sometimes assume that introducing new genes into a population through stocking will result in increased growth, survival, or other superior qualities (ie. hybrid vigor). Unfortunately, this is not always true. In some cases, the resulting population may exhibit a lack of fitness to their environment (outbreeding depression) (Philipp et al. 2002). Outbreeding depression results when the progeny from parents with different genetic makeup have lower fitness than progeny from parents sharing the same genetics. In this case, adaptive genes in wild populations are displaced by genes that are adapted to some other locality or environment.

Quote
Future Actions

Stocking largemouth bass will be necessary to establish the species in new and renovated waters in Kansas. However, it would be irresponsible to introduce fish with no regard to their genetics (Philipp 1992). The introduction of FLMB alleles into NLMB populations may have provided fisheries benefits in southern states, but little published evidence exists to suggest that they would be an asset in Kansas waters. Our limited experience with FLMB in Kansas shows that their performance (and that of the hybrids produced by their interbreeding with NLMB) is poorer than that of NMLB.

Last edited by jpsdad; 07/31/22 09:14 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted by jpsdad
catscratch,

If I recall correctly, your pond is still producing LMB > 20" and is well over 10 years of ages. So the first thing I will tell you is that "This is the exception ... and ... this is awesome". I think part of your success lies in the fact you have a good amount of water ~19 acres. This reduces littoral area/surface acre and probably lends to less LMB recruitment. So environmentally, your pond has been able sustain the production of memorable to trophy size LMB from recruits. It's not clear to what these results depended on population management efforts and whether you faithfully culled to reduce competition. But if those efforts in past were not significant ... it tells me that population management remains as a possible way to increase LMB size and RW.

So you have a good thing going I think and I would seriously question whether you can improve the genetics in your pond by introducing hatchery fish. The opposite may actually be true and it is possible that you could set your pond back by introducing new fish. Consider reading this reference beginning on page 9.. There is a wealth of information in this publication pertinent to Kansas as it was written by Kansas fishery biologists to plan Kansas fishery management in Kansas waters. Though pertaining to Kansas, there are also lessons for everyone entertaining the idea of introducing new genes to their water. But in particular I will reference two small excerpts:

Quote
Fisheries managers sometimes assume that introducing new genes into a population through stocking will result in increased growth, survival, or other superior qualities (ie. hybrid vigor). Unfortunately, this is not always true. In some cases, the resulting population may exhibit a lack of fitness to their environment (outbreeding depression) (Philipp et al. 2002). Outbreeding depression results when the progeny from parents with different genetic makeup have lower fitness than progeny from parents sharing the same genetics. In this case, adaptive genes in wild populations are displaced by genes that are adapted to some other locality or environment.

Quote
Future Actions

Stocking largemouth bass will be necessary to establish the species in new and renovated waters in Kansas. However, it would be irresponsible to introduce fish with no regard to their genetics (Philipp 1992). The introduction of FLMB alleles into NLMB populations may have provided fisheries benefits in southern states, but little published evidence exists to suggest that they would be an asset in Kansas waters. Our limited experience with FLMB in Kansas shows that their performance (and that of the hybrids produced by their interbreeding with NLMB) is poorer than that of NMLB.

You are right; it is exceptional and I'm very lucky (Plus I really don't want to screw it up. Hence all the questions and research before I do ANYTHING). 30 yr old bow and 20"+ bass are caught occasionally. Sure would like 1 or 2 of them to get into the double digits. I'm a bowhunter fanatic. Plant food plots and do a lot to try to fill seasonal gaps in nutrition for the local deer. It's interesting to watch genetic consistencies and shifts in the wild herd. I no illusions that as a hunter I can change the genepool but having long term observations gives plenty of info. The closed system of a pond is somewhat different. I'm working to understand it better.
Thanks for the link and info. I haven't had time to read any of it yet but certainly will.

Last edited by catscratch; 07/31/22 01:15 PM.
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There are lots of good peer reviewed studies on the topic. Philipp is one author but there are others and not all of them agree. In short take all info with a grain of salt (caution). Philipp's writings as well as many others are one reason, I suggested against stocking FLMB/F-1s in your location. But just as important are the results of others in your area as well as common sense experience. I do know of some instances of success with mixed genetics in states with similar latitude over a decade +-. I think those to be an aberration and I would not suggest that others would be as lucky. While genetics are important, they are only part of the story. Proper management including lots of food in the right size for your goals are more likely the key.

I suggest you call Bob Lusk as he has had decades of experience with the subject in question all over the country. He took some Inslee fish - see below to many locations and had success. There are other good sources. Greg Grimes found me some Il. sourced Northern LMB and they have done well in the south.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Last edited by ewest; 08/01/22 11:37 AM.















1 member likes this: FishinRod
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Proper sized forage is usually the biggest limiter in a fish reaching it's max potential.

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Agree 100%


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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I live in Wichita KS and stocked my 4 acre pond with Overton's F1 LMB as well as some of his hybrid striped bass. Here is my data from when I can remember to take them. My normal depth is 14-16 feet and am down about 10 feet since it hasn't rained since 1974, but let's hope May is fruitful.

2020
5-18 8.5 inches 2.5 ounces
5-18 9.5 inches 5.5 ounces
6-8 9.5 inches. 13 ounces
6-21 10 inches 9 ounces
6-21 8.5inches 6.5 ounces
6-21 10 inches 7,5 ounces
6-21 10 inches 7,5 ounces
6-21 12 inches 13 ounces
6-22 12 inches 13 ounces
6-22 10 inches 8.5 ounces
6-23 12 inches 14 ounces

White Crappie (DIDN'T STOCK THESE!)
6-21-20 14 inches 14 ounces
6-21-20 14inches 24 ounces
6-13-21 14inches 21 ounces

Blue Gill
6-13-21 8 inches 12.5 ounces

2021
6-2 14 inches. 21 ounces
6-13 13 inches. 27 ounces
6-13 10.5 inches 12.5 ounces
6-26 16 inches. 36 ounces
6-27 13 inches 19.5 ounces
6-27 15.5 inches 27 ounces
7-1 13.5 inches 27 ounces
7-11 15 inches 31 ounces
7-11 15 inches 33 ounces
7-11 14 inches 27 ounces
7-18 16 inches 36 ounces

2022
5-1 17 inches 50 ounces
possible spawn extra fat. Five feet off of shore. Perch lure. 7 pm
6-17 17 inches 37 ounces STRIPER
green with black dots. Gold spinner. Middle of pond
6-21 17 inches 15 ounces white mepps.
Moved to Javier pond

2023
4-1 18 inches 52 ounces
(white mepps gold spinner) extra fat. Spawn? South side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water.
4-1 16 inches 34 ounces
(white mepps gold spinner) South side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water.
4-2 15 inches 27 ounces
(green rooster gold spinner)North sidePond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water
4-2 18 inches 51 ounces
(green rooster gold spinner)extra fat North side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water
4-2 15 inches 31 ounces
(green rooster gold spinner)North side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water

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blavis,

Thanks for all of the recorded data.

Hope you get some rain soon!

I am a little west of you and have two completely dry ponds and one that is only 1' deep.

(It is now quite easy to "sample" the fish in all of them.)

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Originally Posted by FishinRod
blavis,

Thanks for all of the recorded data.

Hope you get some rain soon!

I am a little west of you and have two completely dry ponds and one that is only 1' deep.

(It is now quite easy to "sample" the fish in all of them.)

Rod, that sounds even worse that what we had last summer in east Tx. Do you plan to start over when the ponds fill?


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Western and south-central Kansas are currently the largest "exceptional drought" area in the entire U.S.

U.S. Drought Map

I haven't worked on managing our three little ponds because they have mostly dried up during even moderate drought conditions.

I have been saving money to build some bigger and deeper ponds, but more important priorities keep robbing my pond budget! mad

We will get there someday.

In the meantime, I vicariously enjoy the pond success stories on Pond Boss. grin

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I recall that you had some small dried up ponds, but not if you had a deeper big one. At least you are acquiring knowledge that will be useful when the big one is built & fills. Do you plan on using a well?


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Originally Posted by anthropic
Do you plan on using a well?

We have a (usually) live creek. It dried up this winter, but has been flowing this spring.

We have had essentially no rain on the farm since January. However, there were two heavy rains to the west of us within the watershed of the creek. It is very impressive how that water has been stored in the region's sandy subsoils and slowly released over the following 8 weeks!

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Originally Posted by FishinRod
Originally Posted by anthropic
Do you plan on using a well?

We have a (usually) live creek. It dried up this winter, but has been flowing this spring.

We have had essentially no rain on the farm since January. However, there were two heavy rains to the west of us within the watershed of the creek. It is very impressive how that water has been stored in the region's sandy subsoils and slowly released over the following 8 weeks!

Great. If I may make a suggestion, it would be to have some deep water when your combined pond is built. Really helps during droughts!


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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I am running the well 6 hours a day to keep it 'leveled' off. But if we don't get rain by June, then I won't be able to keep up with the evaporation and I'll likely go dry. The only benefit is that the neighbor upstream will go dry and I won't have crappie, GSF and bull head cat to deal with. I am working on adding a TON of cedars and other trees this month. Once it fills up then re introduce BG and supplemental forage of tilapia to make it to next year.

Let it rain!!!!
Originally Posted by anthropic
Originally Posted by FishinRod
blavis,

Thanks for all of the recorded data.

Hope you get some rain soon!

I am a little west of you and have two completely dry ponds and one that is only 1' deep.

(It is now quite easy to "sample" the fish in all of them.)

Rod, that sounds even worse that what we had last summer in east Tx. Do you plan to start over when the ponds fill?

I am running the well 6 hours a day to keep it 'leveled' off. But if we don't get rain by June, then I won't be able to keep up with the evaporation and I'll likely go dry. The only benefit is that the neighbor upstream will go dry and I won't have crappie, GSF and bull head cat to deal with. I am working on adding a TON of cedars and other trees this month. Once it fills up then re introduce BG and supplemental forage of tilapia to make it to next year.

Let it rain!!!!

1 member likes this: FishinRod
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