Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking Kansas - Florida genetics?

Been looking at this a while. It seems pure strain Florida is not generally recommended this far north. The fish struggle or simple do not handle the winters. Is it possible that even if they don't do well that they could survive well enough to breed with my northerns and create F1's?

If I were to throw in some F1's would they breed with my northerns and create some hybrid vigor?

What about stocking some northerns from a fishery that has selected brood for good relative wts? I believe it's considered good to add genetics to a pond for genetic diversity.

You guys with experience... what's your thoughts? Is there a best way to go?
I'm very south in KS, just above the OK border.

The flip side of "hybrid vigor" is outbreeding depression.

As your Floridas or F1s breed with your northern-strain bass, the pond can develop Fx generation bass. These can exhibit outbreeding depression and have the worst of the genetics of both strains. These bass can have both slower growth and lower spawning success.

Harbin Fish Farm is not too far from you, and sometimes has pellet-trained F1s for sale. Some of the other Oklahoma suppliers also carry F1s.

It might work for you to ladder stock some F1s every few years.

Your other idea to just improve the genetics of your northern-strain LMB by adding a new source of northern-strain genes to your bass population might actually be a bigger benefit.

I am SOOOO not an expert on this topic. Maybe some of the actual experts will drop into your thread. Hopefully Snipe will drop in too - I believe he actually works with the state of Kansas people on improving the genetics of our LMB across the state reservoirs.

Good luck on this endeavor. If you have great success on this, then I definitely want to try to copy your results!

There is a lot here on the topic using the search feature. This has been widely discussed and is highly disputed regarding the genetics. I have seen no info that outbreeding depression occurs in any study where several strains of LMB have been stocked. In fact, there is a natural overlap in zones where all occur and many studies with no mention of outbreeding depression. See map below. Outbreeding depression usually occurs where 2 different species have been crossed not where the same species (very closely related genetics) are crossed. I am aware that others have a different opinion.

IMO it would be a mistake for you to use Fla LMB in Kansas. I am not sure I would even use F-1s. Not because of the crossing issue but because of poor performance outside of the south. There is a study done in Okla. on Fla LMB and offspring and the results were not good where the waters iced over.








https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=141071&page=1

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=401108&page=1

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=529626

I was just reading an old study from my "saved" folder on a test of Florida LMB around Ardmore, OK (a little north of the Texas border). It may even be the study that ewest was referring to.

Florida LMB in Southern Oklahoma

As a gross generalization, the study indicated that the biggest northern strain and biggest Florida strain were about equal at that location.

As regards "outbreeding depression", I would trust ewest's advice far ahead of my advice!

Overton Fisheries does carry a "branded" version of F1 LMB. (They are about 1/2 way between Dallas and Houston.) I believe Todd? Overton sometimes comments on Pond Boss and some of the people here that have worked with him say he is good at answering questions. You might try to email him during a slow period of their business and see if he can tell you how far north their F1 bass have been an improvement over northern strain.

Not advice just being sure both sides of the info are available for the OP. More study may indicate which position is correct, if either.

I will check for the Okla study but IIRC in one site where the pond froze over for 2 weeks all the Flas died but I need to check on this. I do recall that no benefit was gained by using Flas and growth was not as good overall as with Northerns.

They definitely noted some "ice" mortality of the Florida Bass in the study I linked. However, it did not appear that ice mortality was even close to 100% (in that study).

"The ponds were continuously covered with ice more than 6 inches thick for several weeks during December 1983 through January 1984. We saw two dead bass under the ice in Bass Pond during this period. Approximately four 1- to 2-pound bass were found dead in Bass Pond during March 1989, presumably due to cold stress. Until 1994, no other bass die-offs were documented in either pond. These ponds were not monitored daily, so it is possible that a partial bass die-off, such as the one seen in March 1989, could have occurred without being noticed."

The Florida strain LMB did survive for 14 years in their larger pond, when they finally ended the study.

However, the southern border of Kansas is a long way north of Ardmore, OK!

Think they are different studies. I looked at the one you posted, and it is different.

No surprise I guess. If you are running a study to test the effective northern limits for Florida strain LMB, your study should probably include a section on survival rates under ice!

We are certainly a long way north of Ardmore! I have a friend in OKC. Our plants and morels are 2 weeks different; fruit trees bloom 2 weeks early, morels pop 2 weeks early, yards need mowed 2 weeks earlier, etc. I would guess Ardmore is 3 weeks milder (if that makes sense). With that said our pond seldom freezes over completely and when it does it's no where close to 6in thick. 19 acres with a large basin that's 10ft deep. But, EVERYTHING basically says Florida genetics is a risky at best effort. Wish money grew on trees...

I agree that your 19-acre pond is a different (and potentially favorable) situation. It is really a small lake.

Maybe you can run a small experiment with some F1 bass? Buy what fits in the budget and mark them with floy tags and track their progress.

I don't see how they could have a significant negative impact on your overall fishery. (But I am not an expert on that topic!)

They could have an impact on your wallet, but I assume you are keeping the money trees on your ranch well-watered during this drought.

As for the St of KS, Flas don't make it here. When temps get below 55 for very long they just don't do well. On the Map, the NW circle is Cedar Bluff res in KS. Fla's were stocked in 94, 95 and 96. All were tagged. No tags were ever reported, returned or caught by state sampling methods other than eletrofishing in the year they were stocked.

^^^ that makes it simple.

Snipe, I was hoping you would drop into this thread.

1.) Do you think there is a chance that F1s could outperform the growth rate and survivability of northern strain LMB at catscratch's location?

2.) I think his idea to improve the genetics of his northern strain LMB is probably a better idea. Do you (or any of the State fisheries people) know the likely provenance of his original bass? (Probably a watershed lake. I bet catscratch could probably determine when it was built, and roughly when it was stocked.) If so, what would be a source of different northern strain bass that would be beneficial to his future LMB population?

I'm close to the same latitude as Grand Lake OK (little north but not a lot). Just read that they tried Florida strains for many yrs with no luck. This spring they released 93,000 fingerling Tigerbass. They hope to fund 10yrs of this.

Did they fin clip (or otherwise mark) the Tigerbass so they can get some partial feedback from anglers or future shock surveys?

Looking at the photos, I think we have some experts on the forum that could correctly identify them by visual inspection alone. However, I would have very low confidence that I personally could correctly differentiate the fish. (I have caught too many LMB on the same day that had broad color differences.)

I know of some ponds that had Floridas stocked here in Central Oklahoma about 30 miles NW of OKC. Floridas didn't do any better than other LMB.

FishinRod you are not alone! I have never met or heard of an expert or otherwise Fisheries Scientist who thought they could id a Fla or Northern or F-1 by visual inspection alone. Most will tell you that the only sure way is through DNA testing. I have seen info about counting lateral line scales and such but have no faith that it will give an accurate result.

I think I heard in a video they were clipped, but don't hold me to that. Averaged out to 2 per acre stocking rate but only released them in 3-4 different locations. Would they travel much for at least a yr or 2? Lots of shad in that lake... and a lot of tournaments. I think their average nice bass is around 5lbs and they would like to make it closer to 8ish.

It's going to vary wildly by each fish. Bob Lusk talks about some fish that were tagged with one of them would travel something like 2 miles and another would only travel a few hundred yards.

From a previous Cutting Edge - all you should subscribe to PB mag.

Dispersal of hatchery bass ranged from a low of 7 meters at days 7 and 14 to as much as 2,010 meters at day 14. Hatchery bass dispersed rapidly during year 1, when 63% were recorded more than 400 meters from their stocking site after 1 week. In year 2, hatchery fish dispersed to greater distances than did wild fish. Dispersal was limited by the size of the lake (1400 meters in diameter) for many hatchery fish. Some individuals eventually swam around the entire lake and ended up near their stocking location by the end of the study period. Substantial numbers of hatchery fish emigrated from the lake to an adjoining lake (23% emigration).

Total movement for hatchery fish in year 1 ranged from 11 meters for a bass tracked for 4 days to 6,005 meters for a fish tracked for 18 days (334 meters per day). The maximum distance traveled by a hatchery fish was 3.03 kilometers in a 24 hour period, which included swimming the distance of the lake into an adjoining lake. It was confirmed that this was a live hatchery bass (and not a tag being carried off by a predator) by capturing it with an electrofishing boat.

Thanks for that clarification!

That is good news if they are clipped.

Tournament fisherman are acutely aware of what to do to catch the big bass. If the clipped F1s are either larger, or smaller, then we should get reports in the future.

Interesting. Year after stocking F1 LMB, electrofish guy seemed to think that particularly dark, fat LMB in right size range were F1. Maybe that was just for my BOW, though, as he's surveyed there several times & is familiar with the fishery.

Awesome info! Thanks for taking the time to post it.

So if Florida genetics are out of the question is there any merit to bringing bass from other sources? I know some sources advertise that they sort out the best/fastest and most aggressive genetics for their inventory of northern strains. Value to seeking something like that out or is it just advertising?

I have done that and yes, it's worth it but check with people here for their results - don't just buy based on ads and websites.