Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking Kansas - Florida genetics?

Been looking at this a while. It seems pure strain Florida is not generally recommended this far north. The fish struggle or simple do not handle the winters. Is it possible that even if they don't do well that they could survive well enough to breed with my northerns and create F1's?

If I were to throw in some F1's would they breed with my northerns and create some hybrid vigor?

What about stocking some northerns from a fishery that has selected brood for good relative wts? I believe it's considered good to add genetics to a pond for genetic diversity.

You guys with experience... what's your thoughts? Is there a best way to go?
I'm very south in KS, just above the OK border.

The flip side of "hybrid vigor" is outbreeding depression.

As your Floridas or F1s breed with your northern-strain bass, the pond can develop Fx generation bass. These can exhibit outbreeding depression and have the worst of the genetics of both strains. These bass can have both slower growth and lower spawning success.

Harbin Fish Farm is not too far from you, and sometimes has pellet-trained F1s for sale. Some of the other Oklahoma suppliers also carry F1s.

It might work for you to ladder stock some F1s every few years.

Your other idea to just improve the genetics of your northern-strain LMB by adding a new source of northern-strain genes to your bass population might actually be a bigger benefit.

I am SOOOO not an expert on this topic. Maybe some of the actual experts will drop into your thread. Hopefully Snipe will drop in too - I believe he actually works with the state of Kansas people on improving the genetics of our LMB across the state reservoirs.

Good luck on this endeavor. If you have great success on this, then I definitely want to try to copy your results!

There is a lot here on the topic using the search feature. This has been widely discussed and is highly disputed regarding the genetics. I have seen no info that outbreeding depression occurs in any study where several strains of LMB have been stocked. In fact, there is a natural overlap in zones where all occur and many studies with no mention of outbreeding depression. See map below. Outbreeding depression usually occurs where 2 different species have been crossed not where the same species (very closely related genetics) are crossed. I am aware that others have a different opinion.

IMO it would be a mistake for you to use Fla LMB in Kansas. I am not sure I would even use F-1s. Not because of the crossing issue but because of poor performance outside of the south. There is a study done in Okla. on Fla LMB and offspring and the results were not good where the waters iced over.








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I was just reading an old study from my "saved" folder on a test of Florida LMB around Ardmore, OK (a little north of the Texas border). It may even be the study that ewest was referring to.

Florida LMB in Southern Oklahoma

As a gross generalization, the study indicated that the biggest northern strain and biggest Florida strain were about equal at that location.

As regards "outbreeding depression", I would trust ewest's advice far ahead of my advice!

Overton Fisheries does carry a "branded" version of F1 LMB. (They are about 1/2 way between Dallas and Houston.) I believe Todd? Overton sometimes comments on Pond Boss and some of the people here that have worked with him say he is good at answering questions. You might try to email him during a slow period of their business and see if he can tell you how far north their F1 bass have been an improvement over northern strain.

Not advice just being sure both sides of the info are available for the OP. More study may indicate which position is correct, if either.

I will check for the Okla study but IIRC in one site where the pond froze over for 2 weeks all the Flas died but I need to check on this. I do recall that no benefit was gained by using Flas and growth was not as good overall as with Northerns.

They definitely noted some "ice" mortality of the Florida Bass in the study I linked. However, it did not appear that ice mortality was even close to 100% (in that study).

"The ponds were continuously covered with ice more than 6 inches thick for several weeks during December 1983 through January 1984. We saw two dead bass under the ice in Bass Pond during this period. Approximately four 1- to 2-pound bass were found dead in Bass Pond during March 1989, presumably due to cold stress. Until 1994, no other bass die-offs were documented in either pond. These ponds were not monitored daily, so it is possible that a partial bass die-off, such as the one seen in March 1989, could have occurred without being noticed."

The Florida strain LMB did survive for 14 years in their larger pond, when they finally ended the study.

However, the southern border of Kansas is a long way north of Ardmore, OK!

Think they are different studies. I looked at the one you posted, and it is different.

No surprise I guess. If you are running a study to test the effective northern limits for Florida strain LMB, your study should probably include a section on survival rates under ice!

We are certainly a long way north of Ardmore! I have a friend in OKC. Our plants and morels are 2 weeks different; fruit trees bloom 2 weeks early, morels pop 2 weeks early, yards need mowed 2 weeks earlier, etc. I would guess Ardmore is 3 weeks milder (if that makes sense). With that said our pond seldom freezes over completely and when it does it's no where close to 6in thick. 19 acres with a large basin that's 10ft deep. But, EVERYTHING basically says Florida genetics is a risky at best effort. Wish money grew on trees...

I agree that your 19-acre pond is a different (and potentially favorable) situation. It is really a small lake.

Maybe you can run a small experiment with some F1 bass? Buy what fits in the budget and mark them with floy tags and track their progress.

I don't see how they could have a significant negative impact on your overall fishery. (But I am not an expert on that topic!)

They could have an impact on your wallet, but I assume you are keeping the money trees on your ranch well-watered during this drought.

As for the St of KS, Flas don't make it here. When temps get below 55 for very long they just don't do well. On the Map, the NW circle is Cedar Bluff res in KS. Fla's were stocked in 94, 95 and 96. All were tagged. No tags were ever reported, returned or caught by state sampling methods other than eletrofishing in the year they were stocked.

^^^ that makes it simple.

Snipe, I was hoping you would drop into this thread.

1.) Do you think there is a chance that F1s could outperform the growth rate and survivability of northern strain LMB at catscratch's location?

2.) I think his idea to improve the genetics of his northern strain LMB is probably a better idea. Do you (or any of the State fisheries people) know the likely provenance of his original bass? (Probably a watershed lake. I bet catscratch could probably determine when it was built, and roughly when it was stocked.) If so, what would be a source of different northern strain bass that would be beneficial to his future LMB population?

I'm close to the same latitude as Grand Lake OK (little north but not a lot). Just read that they tried Florida strains for many yrs with no luck. This spring they released 93,000 fingerling Tigerbass. They hope to fund 10yrs of this.

Did they fin clip (or otherwise mark) the Tigerbass so they can get some partial feedback from anglers or future shock surveys?

Looking at the photos, I think we have some experts on the forum that could correctly identify them by visual inspection alone. However, I would have very low confidence that I personally could correctly differentiate the fish. (I have caught too many LMB on the same day that had broad color differences.)

I know of some ponds that had Floridas stocked here in Central Oklahoma about 30 miles NW of OKC. Floridas didn't do any better than other LMB.

FishinRod you are not alone! I have never met or heard of an expert or otherwise Fisheries Scientist who thought they could id a Fla or Northern or F-1 by visual inspection alone. Most will tell you that the only sure way is through DNA testing. I have seen info about counting lateral line scales and such but have no faith that it will give an accurate result.

I think I heard in a video they were clipped, but don't hold me to that. Averaged out to 2 per acre stocking rate but only released them in 3-4 different locations. Would they travel much for at least a yr or 2? Lots of shad in that lake... and a lot of tournaments. I think their average nice bass is around 5lbs and they would like to make it closer to 8ish.

It's going to vary wildly by each fish. Bob Lusk talks about some fish that were tagged with one of them would travel something like 2 miles and another would only travel a few hundred yards.

From a previous Cutting Edge - all you should subscribe to PB mag.

Dispersal of hatchery bass ranged from a low of 7 meters at days 7 and 14 to as much as 2,010 meters at day 14. Hatchery bass dispersed rapidly during year 1, when 63% were recorded more than 400 meters from their stocking site after 1 week. In year 2, hatchery fish dispersed to greater distances than did wild fish. Dispersal was limited by the size of the lake (1400 meters in diameter) for many hatchery fish. Some individuals eventually swam around the entire lake and ended up near their stocking location by the end of the study period. Substantial numbers of hatchery fish emigrated from the lake to an adjoining lake (23% emigration).

Total movement for hatchery fish in year 1 ranged from 11 meters for a bass tracked for 4 days to 6,005 meters for a fish tracked for 18 days (334 meters per day). The maximum distance traveled by a hatchery fish was 3.03 kilometers in a 24 hour period, which included swimming the distance of the lake into an adjoining lake. It was confirmed that this was a live hatchery bass (and not a tag being carried off by a predator) by capturing it with an electrofishing boat.

Thanks for that clarification!

That is good news if they are clipped.

Tournament fisherman are acutely aware of what to do to catch the big bass. If the clipped F1s are either larger, or smaller, then we should get reports in the future.

Interesting. Year after stocking F1 LMB, electrofish guy seemed to think that particularly dark, fat LMB in right size range were F1. Maybe that was just for my BOW, though, as he's surveyed there several times & is familiar with the fishery.

Awesome info! Thanks for taking the time to post it.

So if Florida genetics are out of the question is there any merit to bringing bass from other sources? I know some sources advertise that they sort out the best/fastest and most aggressive genetics for their inventory of northern strains. Value to seeking something like that out or is it just advertising?

I have done that and yes, it's worth it but check with people here for their results - don't just buy based on ads and websites.

Alrighty- anyone here recommend a supplier for south central KS? My dad has bought from Dunn's for yrs but that's always just been minnows and channel cats. Know nothing of their bass. Things I would like; best genetics possible, quality fish, and low risk of introducing disease to my pond.

The LMB suppliers on my list that are close to you are:

Harbin Fish Farm
Culver's Fish Farm
Hartley Fish Farms (I don't know if they are still in business.)
Wallace Fish Farm

Moving to Oklahoma:

Moore's Fish Farm (east of Tulsa)
Dunn's
Plus others farther away.

I know nothing about the genetics/quality/service of any of the suppliers above.

Of course you always have Snipe (Kenny) at Aquatic Specialties as a valuable resource. He does not currently raise LMB. However, he may haul some LMB to eastern Kansas for a client at some future date. You might send him a PM with your contact info. If it ever works out that he is hauling less than a full load, it might help everyone to have him take a split load to your pond. (It never hurts to ask!)

Good luck turning your good bass pond into a great bass pond.

Mark Harbin has real good fish. Hartley can provide LMB too but would be my second choice. Wallace and Culver has the same stock.

catscratch,

If I recall correctly, your pond is still producing LMB > 20" and is well over 10 years of ages. So the first thing I will tell you is that "This is the exception ... and ... this is awesome". I think part of your success lies in the fact you have a good amount of water ~19 acres. This reduces littoral area/surface acre and probably lends to less LMB recruitment. So environmentally, your pond has been able sustain the production of memorable to trophy size LMB from recruits. It's not clear to what these results depended on population management efforts and whether you faithfully culled to reduce competition. But if those efforts in past were not significant ... it tells me that population management remains as a possible way to increase LMB size and RW.

So you have a good thing going I think and I would seriously question whether you can improve the genetics in your pond by introducing hatchery fish. The opposite may actually be true and it is possible that you could set your pond back by introducing new fish. Consider reading this reference beginning on page 9.. There is a wealth of information in this publication pertinent to Kansas as it was written by Kansas fishery biologists to plan Kansas fishery management in Kansas waters. Though pertaining to Kansas, there are also lessons for everyone entertaining the idea of introducing new genes to their water. But in particular I will reference two small excerpts:

You are right; it is exceptional and I'm very lucky (Plus I really don't want to screw it up. Hence all the questions and research before I do ANYTHING). 30 yr old bow and 20"+ bass are caught occasionally. Sure would like 1 or 2 of them to get into the double digits. I'm a bowhunter fanatic. Plant food plots and do a lot to try to fill seasonal gaps in nutrition for the local deer. It's interesting to watch genetic consistencies and shifts in the wild herd. I no illusions that as a hunter I can change the genepool but having long term observations gives plenty of info. The closed system of a pond is somewhat different. I'm working to understand it better.
Thanks for the link and info. I haven't had time to read any of it yet but certainly will.

There are lots of good peer reviewed studies on the topic. Philipp is one author but there are others and not all of them agree. In short take all info with a grain of salt (caution). Philipp's writings as well as many others are one reason, I suggested against stocking FLMB/F-1s in your location. But just as important are the results of others in your area as well as common sense experience. I do know of some instances of success with mixed genetics in states with similar latitude over a decade +-. I think those to be an aberration and I would not suggest that others would be as lucky. While genetics are important, they are only part of the story. Proper management including lots of food in the right size for your goals are more likely the key.

I suggest you call Bob Lusk as he has had decades of experience with the subject in question all over the country. He took some Inslee fish - see below to many locations and had success. There are other good sources. Greg Grimes found me some Il. sourced Northern LMB and they have done well in the south.

Proper sized forage is usually the biggest limiter in a fish reaching it's max potential.

Agree 100%

I live in Wichita KS and stocked my 4 acre pond with Overton's F1 LMB as well as some of his hybrid striped bass. Here is my data from when I can remember to take them. My normal depth is 14-16 feet and am down about 10 feet since it hasn't rained since 1974, but let's hope May is fruitful.

2020
5-18 8.5 inches 2.5 ounces
5-18 9.5 inches 5.5 ounces
6-8 9.5 inches. 13 ounces
6-21 10 inches 9 ounces
6-21 8.5inches 6.5 ounces
6-21 10 inches 7,5 ounces
6-21 10 inches 7,5 ounces
6-21 12 inches 13 ounces
6-22 12 inches 13 ounces
6-22 10 inches 8.5 ounces
6-23 12 inches 14 ounces

White Crappie (DIDN'T STOCK THESE!)
6-21-20 14 inches 14 ounces
6-21-20 14inches 24 ounces
6-13-21 14inches 21 ounces

Blue Gill
6-13-21 8 inches 12.5 ounces

2021
6-2 14 inches. 21 ounces
6-13 13 inches. 27 ounces
6-13 10.5 inches 12.5 ounces
6-26 16 inches. 36 ounces
6-27 13 inches 19.5 ounces
6-27 15.5 inches 27 ounces
7-1 13.5 inches 27 ounces
7-11 15 inches 31 ounces
7-11 15 inches 33 ounces
7-11 14 inches 27 ounces
7-18 16 inches 36 ounces

2022
5-1 17 inches 50 ounces
possible spawn extra fat. Five feet off of shore. Perch lure. 7 pm
6-17 17 inches 37 ounces STRIPER
green with black dots. Gold spinner. Middle of pond
6-21 17 inches 15 ounces white mepps.
Moved to Javier pond

2023
4-1 18 inches 52 ounces
(white mepps gold spinner) extra fat. Spawn? South side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water.
4-1 16 inches 34 ounces
(white mepps gold spinner) South side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water.
4-2 15 inches 27 ounces
(green rooster gold spinner)North sidePond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water
4-2 18 inches 51 ounces
(green rooster gold spinner)extra fat North side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water
4-2 15 inches 31 ounces
(green rooster gold spinner)North side. Pond was extremely low. Only 4-5 feet of water

blavis,

Thanks for all of the recorded data.

Hope you get some rain soon!

I am a little west of you and have two completely dry ponds and one that is only 1' deep.

(It is now quite easy to "sample" the fish in all of them.)

Rod, that sounds even worse that what we had last summer in east Tx. Do you plan to start over when the ponds fill?

Western and south-central Kansas are currently the largest "exceptional drought" area in the entire U.S.

U.S. Drought Map

I haven't worked on managing our three little ponds because they have mostly dried up during even moderate drought conditions.

I have been saving money to build some bigger and deeper ponds, but more important priorities keep robbing my pond budget!

We will get there someday.

In the meantime, I vicariously enjoy the pond success stories on Pond Boss.

I recall that you had some small dried up ponds, but not if you had a deeper big one. At least you are acquiring knowledge that will be useful when the big one is built & fills. Do you plan on using a well?

We have a (usually) live creek. It dried up this winter, but has been flowing this spring.

We have had essentially no rain on the farm since January. However, there were two heavy rains to the west of us within the watershed of the creek. It is very impressive how that water has been stored in the region's sandy subsoils and slowly released over the following 8 weeks!

Great. If I may make a suggestion, it would be to have some deep water when your combined pond is built. Really helps during droughts!

I am running the well 6 hours a day to keep it 'leveled' off. But if we don't get rain by June, then I won't be able to keep up with the evaporation and I'll likely go dry. The only benefit is that the neighbor upstream will go dry and I won't have crappie, GSF and bull head cat to deal with. I am working on adding a TON of cedars and other trees this month. Once it fills up then re introduce BG and supplemental forage of tilapia to make it to next year.

Let it rain!!!!
I am running the well 6 hours a day to keep it 'leveled' off. But if we don't get rain by June, then I won't be able to keep up with the evaporation and I'll likely go dry. The only benefit is that the neighbor upstream will go dry and I won't have crappie, GSF and bull head cat to deal with. I am working on adding a TON of cedars and other trees this month. Once it fills up then re introduce BG and supplemental forage of tilapia to make it to next year.

Let it rain!!!!