Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,902
Posts557,116
Members18,452
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,420
ewest 21,475
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,112
Who's Online Now
2 members (Dave Davidson1, jpsdad), 719 guests, and 204 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 6
Likes: 1
C
cfal Offline OP
OP Offline
C
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 6
Likes: 1
Hi There - I have a new to me pond in upstate New York - currently totally swamped with brown bullheads. The pond is ~50 years old, 0.9ac in size, and about 8' and max depth. Bullheads are the only fish that were in the pond when I moved in. This spring I stocked ~65 rainbow trout as a test to see if they'd survive the summer. No deaths yet, but I'm getting worried as the surface temperature as risen above 73 a few times already. It has a decent amount of shade, wind, and we're at ~1500' elevation so we stay a few degrees cooler than the surrounding towns.

The pond is spring/runoff fed, and we've had a drier year than most this year so my water level is a little low and currently not flowing out. Last year it only stopped outflowing for a few weeks in august.

In any case, my main goals are just to have a varied fishery with a little bit of a few things, and nothing that is totally dominant. I'm not worried about trophy fish, though good tasting fish that aren't totally stunted would be great. And if the bullheads would stop silting up the water that'd be great too.

I'd like to put in a predator to control the bullheads, but as I read through the forums, what I see is LMB and CC, and basically people saying after a year there were no more bullheads to worry about. I kind of like having them so I'd prefer to not totally crush them. I was wondering if something like SMB would put some pressure on the population, at least on the fry side, and if I culled a good portion of the stunted ones, then I'd be in good shape.

I'd be happy to throw in any single or combination that would help. If I get enough BG and minnows along with the bullhead, would that be enough diverse forage that the LMB wouldn't eat all the BH? Should I get a single CC, let it get to work on the BH, then try to catch it again?

So my main question - is what fish(es) should I put in here to bring balance to the force?

Thank you!

Attached Images
20220630_063649.jpg Resized_20220509_183952.jpg
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,689
Likes: 281
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,689
Likes: 281
Welcome to Pond Boss.

Your pond is beautiful.

No matter what specific plan you embark on, removal of a vast majority of the bullheads, I think, would be a major component.

If we call your pond an even 1 acre, set a goal of removing 200-300 bullhead, just as a milestone. Remove them via trapping, netting, fishing, and maybe even electro shocking. A cast net would work well on some of those in the picture, but it takes some practice.

One Channel Cat in a .9 acre pond is not much at all to have a real impact on the bullheads. You could introduce some northern pike or some tiger muskie and that would have an impact on them.

For me, I wouldn't want to invest in my desired fish species until I had the bullheads in more control.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 329
Likes: 84
C
Offline
C
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 329
Likes: 84
My understanding is that it's not likely channel cats will reproduce in a pond your size. If so you add several with the knowledge you could add more or remove some of what you stocked to adjust to bullhead population changes. Personally I think bullhead are good eats. Do you have any structure that would allow perch or sunfish to survive? I'm not familiar with your climate and species so I'm just throwing some stuff at the wall to see what sticks...

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,883
Likes: 278
J
Online Content
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,883
Likes: 278
cfal,

Do you know anything about the pond's history? For example, are the brown bullhead all that remain of a more diverse stocking? May be worth investigating. They look big enough to eat and so you may be able manage them by hook and line. Were I doing that, I would consider harvesting a slot between 8 and 10 inches to ensure the largest fish could serve predation.

If you find the pond may have winter killed before then it may be better to avoid fish that need higher DO. Esox sp. as a bonus in limited quantity may be an option that could survive events that would kill Centrarchids for example.

Anyways, its hard to kill out bullheads which can survive in mud for a time. Might take rotenone. But if you like the bullheads and they are achieving harvestable sizes, I would consider only introducing predators on a limited basis as bonus fish. There may be enough predation by the larger Bullheads to achieve harvest sized fish on an on going basis. A pond like that could carry 400 lbs or more of BH and so consider starting with a goal of 80 lbs/year using a slot as the harvest size.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


1 member likes this: cfal
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 22
Likes: 7
B
Offline
B
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 22
Likes: 7
import some IOWEGIANS they would catch and clean out the bullheads. There favorite food. You could also catch them and brine and pickle them in anise alcohol and bottle them in mason jars and sell them to catfish people for bait.
Excellent bait.

1 member likes this: jpsdad
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
Channel catfish will reproduce to populate offspring in a small pond - saw it happen several times.

Bullheads can be pretty prolific. They easily enter baited wire mesh traps. Look for the larger sized traps or build your own trap from plastic netting on a PVC frame. Abundant bullheads can as you now see will make the water turbid. Turbid water minimizes algae and submerged plant growth that will return when the water becomes clearer as bullhead density is noticeably reduced.

I do think SMB would help reduce BH numbers. How much is unknown. So with some manual fish trapping and SMB predation you could significantly reduce BH density. If you try and add some SMB IMO it would be best to also add a few yellow perch 4"-6" sizes to help them survive competition from BH. Also the SMB stockers should be larger size to best compete and survive with dense BH numbers that are currently overpopulated and have most all natural foods consumed. When the BH density becomes lower the SMB and YP might increase in numbers. If a low oxygen concentration (DO) happens again the SMB will die and YP likely survive. If that happens then try some pike to control BH and YP. Pike(NP), YP, and BH tolerate low DO.

This place makes very good fish traps for smaller fish. I like their cylinder traps. The other traps should have a more shallow area of flat pond bottom to effectively "fish"" the box and barrel style traps. When choosing / buying be sure the trap opening (funnel or throat) is large enough for your size of bullhead to enter the trap. If you contact them, they can build you a trap with a special larger trap opening or wire mesh for catching bullheads.
https://ktraps.com/pages/about-our-traps

The Z trap also works very good at catching fish. It 'fishes' best on an area of fairly flat bottom.
https://www.reeltexasoutdoors.com/p...ream-perch-sunfish-pinfish-bullhead-trap

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/08/22 01:43 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
1 member likes this: cfal
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 6
Likes: 1
C
cfal Offline OP
OP Offline
C
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 6
Likes: 1
Thanks all for the thoughtful feedback I really appreciate it!

Sunil - Thanks that makes sense I should clean it up a bit before I sink any more money into throwing other fish at the problem. I'm having trouble finding the post again but I thought I read one guy put in (4) CC in a 1 acre pond and in one year didn't have any bullhead left. If they wouldn't decimate the population I'd be interested in tossing them in. for the Pike or other esox species, do they not get as prolific in number as say LMB would?

@catscratch - I'm reading that even at my small size as long as I get above the magic temp number, which it seems like I will at this rate, CC will spawn. I've got some trees down in the pond and if structure was valuable it would take me half a day to drop a bunch of trees and brush in. Im on 30 wooded acres so manufactured cover would be easy to come by.

jpsdad - its a good question about the ponds history. I don't know much about it, and the house changed hands several times in the last few years so all historical knowledge was lost. As for clues, I kind of suspect there have been some heavy kills that might have knocked off everyone but the bullhead. Previous owners left a bunch of algaecide in the basement, I haven't seen any algae issues so presumably the conditions have changed over time - adding that to Bill Cody's comment about fewer BH improving water clarity and increasing algae - maybe those things go together, Im not sure. For the Esox species - would I have to harvest those heavily to keep numbers in check or would those be somewhat self limiting? As for harvesting the BH as is, man they are tiny with a lot of work to clean for a little bit of meat. For 80 lbs/year that'll probably be a couple hundred fish at this size, but I suppose thats what it takes. There's at least one lunker in there that has come up for pellets, we call her big bertha.

BEPA - I actually looked up IOWEGIANS thinking it was the latin name for some species I'd never heard of, you got me there. We've eaten a few but it sounds like not the right way since so many people say they taste good!

Bill - thanks for the insight - seems like everyone agrees I need to heavily cull as bare minimum. Do you think an NP-YP-BH with bonus brown trout would be stable? Would I still need to manually intervene frequently on one or more of them?

Part of me wants to add SMB, YP, FHM, Crayfish, YP, and CC in small amounts and just see how it goes, but i suppose I should be a bit more intentional than that.

Thanks again!

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,883
Likes: 278
J
Online Content
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,883
Likes: 278
Originally Posted by cfal
jpsdad - its a good question about the ponds history. I don't know much about it, and the house changed hands several times in the last few years so all historical knowledge was lost. As for clues, I kind of suspect there have been some heavy kills that might have knocked off everyone but the bullhead. Previous owners left a bunch of algaecide in the basement, I haven't seen any algae issues so presumably the conditions have changed over time - adding that to Bill Cody's comment about fewer BH improving water clarity and increasing algae - maybe those things go together, Im not sure. For the Esox species - would I have to harvest those heavily to keep numbers in check or would those be somewhat self limiting? As for harvesting the BH as is, man they are tiny with a lot of work to clean for a little bit of meat. For 80 lbs/year that'll probably be a couple hundred fish at this size, but I suppose thats what it takes. There's at least one lunker in there that has come up for pellets, we call her big bertha.

Just looking at them in the photo, I thought they were in the neighborhood of 8" (which is ideal for me). So I may have been wrong about their size? This brings back memories of fishing with my granddad. I threw back a 6" BH once and he asked "What you doing there? That's breakfast" Having been properly scolded, I checked to make sure I didn't throw any food back, LOL. So in the video below, you will notice that the yellow BH he is cleaning are around 6 to 7 inches in length. Panfry is the way to go with small BH (meanwhile I would throw back anything bigger than 10" for sure). They are TOO BIG to panfry and will eat a fair amount of smaller BH which is a good thing. In the video you will learn how my granddad taught me to clean small catfish (up to 1/2 lb).

[video:youtube]
[/video]

BH can achieve standing crops as large as BG. In essence they are both panfish. But BH do have some differences. They have a larger gape for one. So don't remove Big Bertha. They will be properly managed when some can reach 12" in length. Removing the middle sizes should allow you grow the largest to bigger sizes. A little feeding should help growth too but thin them before feeding (if they are very small) to get more bang for your feed investment (more growth in individual fish). So I like Bill's idea of trapping. Whatever you are not eating or releasing .... you could dice and feed back to them. A heavy knife with a curved blade that can quickly sever by rocking (ideally something like a heavy ulu) can do this quickly and with less effort. Without a predator species, you may have to do trapping on an ongoing basis but once you have the population with 20% of its weight in 10" fish or greater it will be much easier than this early going.

As for the ESOX. I mentioned them because they should be more resistant to low DO. So just some thoughts.

1. The presence of the algaecide in the basement suggests that BH were not so prevalent and the pond had other fish species. The BH are a natural and great choice for this old pond because they match it's trophic status. Just being there, they prevent FA and many submerged weeds. Its just a matter of thinning BH to numbers that will allow survivors to grow to lengths that interest you.

2. If you introduce predators, I think it will be some time before you get reproduction from them. The numerous BH population will probably prevent successful reproduction for a time. To increase the average size of your BH will require you being a predator and/or introducing a predator. But increasing the average size of your BH will also increase the amount of predation from the BH themselves. Too much predation and your water will clear and vegetation (Both FA and others) will grow. So this isn't necessarily good. The shift to non-phytoplankton vegetation could actually reduce food chain production and accumulate more muck. It could also increase YOY survival and work against goals of growth. Also the more vegetation you grow, the more likely it is that you could have a fish kill. Probably the best balance would be where visibility is limited to some ideal (unknown) depth that prevents FA and submerged vegetation in the deeper waters.

3. So I like a balance of you being predator with a little help from some other predator that never reproduces but lives a long time. But it may be possible that you (with fish , trapping, and repurposing) with the help of larger BH can achieve a good balance (good annual production of 8" to 10" harvested pan fry size fish). So I think I would try to be conservative with the predator fish and try to maintain no more than 40 to 50 lbs/acre (less may be better for production of BH)

Last edited by jpsdad; 07/09/22 08:57 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


2 members like this: cfal, 4CornersPuddle
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
Originally Posted by Sunil
Welcome to Pond Boss.

Your pond is beautiful.

No matter what specific plan you embark on, removal of a vast majority of the bullheads, I think, would be a major component.


For me, I wouldn't want to invest in my desired fish species until I had the bullheads in more control.

Welcome to PB cafl !

I agree with what Sunil posted above. There are options but most people don't want lots of Bullheads for a variety of reasons. For newer pond owners it is worth mentioning that the more complicated the plan (# of fish species) used the harder it is to keep things somewhat balanced.

Last edited by ewest; 07/11/22 11:26 AM.















Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 6
Likes: 1
C
cfal Offline OP
OP Offline
C
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 6
Likes: 1
I know its like, a year later, so sorry for not responding but this video was really helpful, thank you!


Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
cro, HC1968
Recent Posts
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by esshup - 03/29/24 01:06 AM
pond experience needed
by esshup - 03/29/24 12:45 AM
New pond middle TN: establishing food chain?
by Bill Cody - 03/28/24 07:57 PM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by FireIsHot - 03/28/24 07:33 PM
Working on a .5acre disaster, I mean pond.
by PRCS - 03/28/24 06:39 PM
Fungus infection on fish
by nvcdl - 03/28/24 06:07 PM
Can anyone ID these minnows?
by Dylanfrely - 03/28/24 05:43 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/28/24 04:48 PM
Yellow Perch Spawn 2024
by H20fwler - 03/28/24 04:29 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by LANGSTER - 03/28/24 03:49 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by esshup - 03/28/24 10:39 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5