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Originally Posted by catscratch
Originally Posted by Dwight
Searching for the elusive Orange Spotted Sunfish in Minnesota.
How do you post pics that actually show up instead of a link? I would post more pics if I knew how to make them pop up like that. And good luck with that search boat!

catscratch, if you are using a computer ...

1. Use Full editor and then position the cursor where you want the image to show.

2. Click the image icon in the tool bar above the text and you can enter the image's link there. Provided the link is good, the image should show.

3. If you are uploading using the Attachment manager ... then after you post the first time you can click the link to get its address and then follow steps 1 & 2.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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After Snipe's reference to the KS DNR state survey of the small city lake containing OSS abundance, I withdraw my suggestion to add OSS to the pond as an option for forage fish. The example of good chance of an over population of OSS is possible especially if a fair amount of shallow water is present in the pond. Exceptions occur. Anytime one uses a nontested fish species in a pond as an experiment, they should have the possibility to relatively easily renovate the pond if or when population problems and fish balance becomes a problem.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/28/22 09:54 AM.

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Just making a note of pertinent comments.


jpsdad
I empathize with the biologists' challenges. It's so hard to control multiple factors to meet license holder's expectations.

Snipe
I'm going to share something that was said to me about 6 months ago in my search for DNA results from different areas, from our head of fisheries in KS.. He said to me.."you are looking for something that the answer does not exist for.

FireIsHot
Grasshopper ...Take the pebble from my hand.


That is why its called pond management - not control.
There are no magic answers - just work, common sense and applied science. Even that is not always correct or the best way. There are as many different thoughts as there are people who own ponds. We just really don't know all the answers or even the right questions to ask. That is why we share this space in search of advice. It depends - carry onward!

Last edited by ewest; 06/28/22 11:20 AM.















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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Originally Posted by catscratch
Originally Posted by Dwight
Searching for the elusive Orange Spotted Sunfish in Minnesota.
How do you post pics that actually show up instead of a link? I would post more pics if I knew how to make them pop up like that. And good luck with that search boat!

catscratch, if you are using a computer ...

1. Use Full editor and then position the cursor where you want the image to show.

2. Click the image icon in the tool bar above the text and you can enter the image's link there. Provided the link is good, the image should show.

3. If you are uploading using the Attachment manager ... then after you post the first time you can click the link to get its address and then follow steps 1 & 2.


Thanks for the reply. I post from my phone. I'll tinker with it...
[Linked Image]

Attached Images
Screenshot_20220621-202227_Gallery.jpg (34.06 KB, 394 downloads)
Last edited by catscratch; 06/29/22 10:04 AM.
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[Linked Image]


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Catscratch, just did this from my phone. If press and hold the link you will get an option to copy the link. Same goes for pasting you have press and hold in the link textbook when prompted and you will get the option to paste. Great crappie BTW.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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When I spent a concerted effort to learn about OSS, searching everything available on them, the one thing that stood out to me was that they have widespread distribution and yet are most often never noticed. This is norm with OSS. If you live in the plains states, the waters you fish very well may have them but you may have to work very hard to locate or catch any ... except in waters where they are more exceptionally abundant. My main reason for taking them off my priority list was because there are so many other options that I like better. Among them are some exceptional invertebrates and other small fish with high reproduction rates. I think the reason I like the satinfin group (Cyprinella sp.) so much is because it is a smaller gape fish that will fill a pond and utilize all of the water. The OSS didn't seem generalist enough to me and had potential to introduce food chain inefficiency through competition and predation. But in the end I concluded, which affirms Bill's point, that there are many unknowns, but most of all I thought they could introduce competition and predation factors that would reduce other prey fish that would probably be better choice.

I think one should never rely on any particular anecdote as an example of what one can expect. This includes the anecdote I referenced above and Snipe's anecdote of the 55 acre lake. The reason I asked Snipe about the standing crops was to check if any kind of pattern may exist in terms of the rare examples when they may achieve a proportion of the standing crop many deviations outside their mean (in the 16 ponds the mean was 4% of standing crop). Perhaps, that would provide some useful context we could evaluate. I also wondered whether LMB were very abundant in that lake. If anything like the anecdote that I referenced, the LMB would have an above average proportion of standing weight and they would not achieve a statewide 15" length limit. A minimum length harvest can't manage (let alone control) the numbers of LMB in any water where the fish cannot grow as large the minimum length limit. If the 55 acre lake is such an example, then the powers that be should allow the biologists set harvest limits that make sense for the lake instead of forcing them to resort to introducing other predators that would compete with an overabundant LMB population.

It's easy to get the cart before the horse or to call an effect the cause. To me its not very clear which is cause and which is effect. For example, are OSS the cause of LMB overabundance or does LMB overabundance create an environment where OSS can thrive and BG struggle to maintain a population? To be sure, each are reasonable hypotheses in the light of anecdotes where such conditions exist. Even so, my hunch is that community keystone (the LMB) plays the more important role and that managing their numbers would change the structure of OSS and BG.

Last edited by jpsdad; 07/01/22 07:22 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Catscratch, just did this from my phone. If press and hold the link you will get an option to copy the link. Same goes for pasting you have press and hold in the link textbook when prompted and you will get the option to paste. Great crappie BTW.

I figured it out! Thank you guys so much for your patience and explanations. Turns out that there is already an https:// thing where I have to paste the link and one in the copied link. Just had to delete one for it to work. Oh man I can be dense!

Sorry to have derailed the OSS thread.

Thanks on the crappie! 19 inch white that I caught last week.

Last edited by catscratch; 06/29/22 10:10 AM.
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Never seen a crappie that size


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Wow what a hoss!

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Originally Posted by Bill Cody
After Snipe's reference to the KS DNR state survey of the small city lake containing OSS abundance, I withdraw my suggestion to add OSS to the pond as an option for forage fish. The example of good chance of an over population of OSS is possible especially if a fair amount of shallow water is present in the pond. Exceptions occur. Anytime one uses a nontested fish species in a pond as an experiment, they should have the possibility to relatively easily renovate the pond if or when population problems and fish balance becomes a problem.


The state of Wyoming is going to drain and nuke a lake due to the presence of yellow perch being there.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/wyoming-illegally-stocked-yellow-perch-saratoga-lake/

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jpsdad, (AND everyone else)

Good post about OSS probably NOT being a good addition in most pond situations.

I did read that OSS could tolerate some of the worst water conditions of any of the Lepomis family. (But my trust in internet articles is getting progressively lower.)

1.) Did your research indicate that OSS might thrive in poor water conditions?

2.) If yes, then might OSS be a recommendation for the people that come on the forum with small, muddy ponds and want a sunfish pond with a few LMB?

Last edited by FishinRod; 06/29/22 12:57 PM. Reason: Added to my response.
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Originally Posted by FishingRod
1.) Did your research indicate that OSS might thrive in poor water conditions?


Some sources note the OSS' ability to colonize marginal habitat. Perhaps harsh conditions is an environmental factor that helps OSS establish and maintain populations. OSS E values (percent of total weight) are probably inversely correlated with E values of other sunfish like bluegill. It is possible that excessive LMB standing crops are also an environmental factor that has greater effect on OSS competitors (other sunfish) than on OSS.

Originally Posted by FishingRod
2.) If yes, then might OSS be a recommendation for the people that come on the forum with small, muddy ponds and want a sunfish pond with a few LMB?


I think that would depend. I would hope that they would want to clear their water and do more. I will add that other sunfish are also successful at colonizing similar habitats (eg Warmouth & GSF). For me to recommend OSS, I would very much want to use them myself. Though I am not averse to their use, (heck they may be in more of our ponds than we realize), I think whatever forage they provide could also be provided by other forage.

One question I have is how in the heck did they show up in 38% of the ponds in that OK survey? Were people stocking them? Or did they just colonize these ponds over time?

But back to your question, my sense is that they could be stand alone forage for LMB, LMB/Crappie combinations, LMB/Lepomis Hybrid combinations. They won't do well if there are a lot of BG recruiting and so they require a commitment to numerous small predators. They are not a forage that will help a person grow trophy LMB. If I were to use them it would be to establish a forage population that could feed an abundant population of LMB. I think they could have particular promise to extend a pond's carrying capacity of LMB. BG cannot do this. BG can feed LMB and help them grow large but they aren't going expand a ponds ability to carry more LMB standing crop. So again, they can only make sense when one intends to have a lot of small LMB. I would just mention, this may not be an unreasonable goal for some people. LMB are aggressive fish that are easy and fun to catch even if limited to around 12". If community structure is not oriented toward small LMB ... I do not think OSS will compete well and their ability to sustain a population would be in question.

Finally, I don't think its a given that OSS can establish a population long term without other important factors. Shallow habitat and cover may be essential in a pond with LMB and other Lepomis. Every pond is different so everyone will get different milage.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/29/22 08:15 PM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted by catscratch
Originally Posted by jpsdad
Originally Posted by catscratch
Originally Posted by Dwight
Searching for the elusive Orange Spotted Sunfish in Minnesota.
How do you post pics that actually show up instead of a link? I would post more pics if I knew how to make them pop up like that. And good luck with that search boat!

catscratch, if you are using a computer ...

1. Use Full editor and then position the cursor where you want the image to show.

2. Click the image icon in the tool bar above the text and you can enter the image's link there. Provided the link is good, the image should show.

3. If you are uploading using the Attachment manager ... then after you post the first time you can click the link to get its address and then follow steps 1 & 2.


Thanks for the reply. I post from my phone. I'll tinker with it...
[Linked Image]

So that's what a 19" crappie looks like. smile Like Dave, I don't think I have ever seen one that large. Did it come from your pond or a local reservoir? Have some good memories fishing with my brother in Milford for crappie.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Caught it out of our pond. I'm not much of a lake fisherman... ponds, creeks, and rivers are more up my alley. Of course if I had a boat I would maybe change my mind on that. I've heard a lot of good things about Milford. Does your brother live in KS?

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Well done. If that isn't a state record fish then I think it may be a Pond Boss record. I would love to catch a crappie like that some day.

My brother was stationed at Fort Riley and went to school at KSU. He lived in Manhattan until about 1997. He lives in Colorado now. There are lots a great wildlife things to do around there. Enjoyed pheasant hunting with him too.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Kansas BCP record is 22" and 4.63lbs. Woodson st lake in 1957. And beings it was 1957, I'd almost bet it was a hybrid.

Last edited by Snipe; 06/29/22 10:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by Snipe
Kansas BCP record is 22" and 4.63lbs. Woodson st lake in 1957. And beings it was 1957, I'd almost bet it was a hybrid.

Just trying to imagine what such a fish looks like.

I recall going to Springfield, MO to the bass pro shop. I think it may have been the original. Lots of fun to visit. My wife and argue whether to pay the admission to their little museum in there. Anyways, we did and they had some awesome stuff in there. One was a life sized carving (so they said) of the world record BG. My jaw just dropped. That on its own was worth the price of admission.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted by Snipe
Kansas BCP record is 22" and 4.63lbs. Woodson st lake in 1957. And beings it was 1957, I'd almost bet it was a hybrid.


I think catscratch said it was a white crappie, although I can't find where he/she said that right now, but when I looked at the pictures, I just thought it was a huge black crappie.

Are you thinking this is a BCP or hybrid crappie?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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I thought it looked like a white crappie. The white crappie record in KS was 17.5" and reported to be 4.02 lbs. So did it have some sinkers stuck in it's gullet?

Whatever the case, catscratch, your fish is longer than the state record.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Yeah, I just looked at the WCP and 17.5" is incorrect. Not sure if that will ever be determined or not but we catch lots of 17-19" WCP out of Kirwin every year and have yet to see a 3lb crappie. Lots of 2.5's, maybe 2.8 but no 3's..
Looking at that pic I say it's a BCP but it could be possible to be a hybrid, but definitely has all the character of a black.
jpsdad, can you blow the pic up enough to count dorsal spines? I can't..

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6 spines and vertical bar pattern so I thought it was a white. I never weighed it. Took pics, measured, released for another day.

[Linked Image]

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I was just going by color, shape, and the vertical barring. From those characteristics the crappie looks like a white crappie to me. I've caught far in excess of 2000 white crappie throughout my life and fileted as many. Most very small, however.

With the spine count being 6 that should be confirmation that white crappie genes are in the fish. So how likely is it that the fish is a hybrid? I've always heard that hybrids look similar to whites but have a spine count of the black. Does this hold true? Can we eliminate it as an F1?

I would love to catch a crappie like that. It's heritage takes nothing away from it.

Last edited by jpsdad; 07/01/22 07:12 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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I’ve been away chasing big walleyes in the great white north, so sorry I missed some additional discussion. My pond is only about 1/4 acre and I have a big trash pump I can empty it with and start over if need be. I’ll add the OSS and give the predators some time to see how they do.

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I'm going to say with some certainty, it's a hybrid. Honestly, it shows traits of a BCP, yet has some vertical barring and 6 spines.
At that length, it's obviously got more white than I'm seeing.. very rare to have blacks over 17-18", they tend to go "up"..

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