Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Midwest, 12footer, aiyueaccent, dennyj622, slumer
17,770 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics39,775
Posts541,438
Members17,771
Most Online3,583
Jan 15th, 2020
Top Posters
esshup 26,750
ewest 21,009
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 14,280
Who's Online Now
10 members (anthropic, highflyer, Jackinthabox, Shorty, nehunter, Bigtrh24, KenHorton, RAH, Quarter Acre, Theo Gallus), 276 guests, and 152 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#549046 06/09/22 03:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
K
Kevint Offline OP
OP Offline
K
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
I have about a 1 acre pond built in the 60's. It is spring/runoff fed. Deepest hole is 16', other than that, it's about 9'. It is well stocked with largemouth bass. I don't know that I really need to aerate (I don't have an algae problem or anything) but I have been thinking about it to improve water clarity, support bacteria to eat some of the muck, and to give the fish more O2.

I've looked at the different systems. Electric, solar, windmill. I'd rather not go with Electric. The pond is in the woods so solar and wind aren't my best option.

My question: Has anyone ran a compressor with a waterwheel powered by the water from the output/ drainpipe??

The drain pipe has constant water year round. It's a 3' pipe through the berm and comes out about 10' above creek level on the back side.

Does anyone have experience with waterwheel power? I was looking at a compressor from a windmill setup.

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,672
Likes: 95
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,672
Likes: 95
Welcome to the forum
Sounds like a neat experiment to attempt, maybe someone will chime in with experience

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,707
Likes: 212
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,707
Likes: 212
Algae, or lack of isn't really a reason to install/not install aeration. I think aeration is a good idea anywhere you have non-moving, wind protected water. It will definitely help with beneficial bacteria and other items such as dying blooms at night that rob O2.
Sounds like a really cool idea to harness the power of falling water to make it work.

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes: 12
L
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
L
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes: 12
Look up a Trompe system. They still use a version of them in some of the remote mining locations up in Canada to produce compressed air from water. All it is is basically a system of PVC pipes that use water to create air flow. Would think you could DIY some version fairly easily in a situation like yours.

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes: 12
L
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
L
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes: 12
Here, I found a Youtube video that explains them and shows a small version of one:


Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
K
Kevint Offline OP
OP Offline
K
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
Lmoore,

Thanks alot for your input. That's a very cool contraption. I think I could build something like that. I just wonder if it would make enough psi to pump to the bottom of the pond. But I guess if that concept ran a mine and was used to aerate the mine pond water, it's worth a shot and a lot cheaper than what I was planning. Tho I was looking forward to building a waterwheel.

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes: 12
L
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
L
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes: 12
Yeah I think you comms get some decent pressure with the amount of flow and head you have in your setup, but honestly if you had your heart set on building a waterwheel I would recommend you do that. Some of my most satisfying pond projects have been ones that I did just because I felt like it smile

Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
K
Kevint Offline OP
OP Offline
K
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
I really appreciate your ideas. I like thinking outside the box and off the grid. The less moving parts, the better. I need to figure out how to do the math to make the trompe work for me. I shared your video with a buddy of mine, he said "Unfortunately what you are trying to do would require about a 70 ft fall". I have to see how he figured that.

I would like for more people to chime in with their opinions.

1 member likes this: lmoore
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes: 12
L
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
L
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes: 12
I think the volume of air produced would be more of a limiting factor than the pressure (function of head height), but I haven’t done any type of calculations on it. I don’t actually know how to calculate a flow rate from a trompe, but I assume it’s based on sizing (diameter) and volume of water through the system.

For your paddle wheel idea, I saw online where someone tried a paddle wheel to turn the crankshaft on a small engine with an air hose screwed into the spark plug hole. I would think you would either need a big motor or some very fast water for that to work well, but it’s an idea that doesn’t use electricity so I thought that was interesting.

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,317
Likes: 87
Online Content
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,317
Likes: 87
Originally Posted by Kevint
..I would like for more people to chime in with their opinions.

My gut is telling me that if you have enough flow through the 3 foot drain pipe to run a "contraption" capable of properly aerating a 1 acre pond that the benefits would be marginal at best. That's a lot of out flow which would be washing the aeration efforts right back out of the pond.

Now, building the contraption for doing something aesthetic like a water fall or fountain would be real cool, so I love the ideas.

If aeration is the goal, I would look at aerating the water as it is coming in. My gut still tells me that that would be hard to increase the O2 enough to make a difference IF you have high throughput. Do you have any idea how much water passes through the drain pipe?

A far as the Trompe is concerned...your friend's comment of a 70' fall has merit. 70 foot of water head yields 30psi...BUT, how big would the down pipe need to be to produce the volume of air needed to run at least 3 heads for a 1 acre pond?...that's a lot of air. I have not convinced myself that the head pressure would be 30 psi (70' of water at 0.43 lbs/foot), something about it having a lot of air bubbles that want to travel back up the tube makes me think that the resulting head pressure would be less. The diameter of the Trompe would need to be pretty big which would demand a lot of water flow... I've talked myself in a circle and have to ask why aerate water the will be flowing back out of the pond and being replaced by low DO spring water? If this is possible, the benefit would be minimal given the fish are doing fine now.

The above mumbo-jumbo is mostly opinion and gut feelings, but I would like to see some of the math if it can be produced.


Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,428
Likes: 123
Moderator
Lunker
Online Confused
Moderator
Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,428
Likes: 123
Cecil Baird had several posts here describing how he aerated well water (110 GPM, IIRC) before running it into his trout pond during Indiana summers. Do a search for Cecil and look at his "aeration tower" - he basically dropped the well water through a couple of 55 gallon drums filled with (plastic media) that exposed it to a lot of air.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 26,750
Likes: 332
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 26,750
Likes: 332
Theo, I've been to Cecil's numerous times. He uses 5 gal buckets with the bottoms drilled to let the water through. He puts the bio balls in the buckets, and has 3-5 buckets above each other in a line. He connected the buckets to each other with it looks like aluminum strapping screwed right to the buckets and about a 6" gap between each bucket. He dumps well water into them at the rate of 50 gpm, the water falls to a sump pit, then gravity feeds to his trout pond. It's called a "packed column" and he does that to aerate the water, remove any harmful gasses and also to get the iron to precipitate out from the water. I'll see if I can find a picture of it.

Some hatcheries do that on a much larger scale, using a concrete structure to aerate the water and to get the iron to precipitate out. One hatchery has to clean out their sump 2x/week, and their concrete sump area is about 12 feet square. That place is running 200-300 gpm through the system.

I found it. Here's his thread, some of the pictures are missing due to PhotoBucket screwing with their system.

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=283273

Last edited by esshup; 06/13/22 12:37 PM. Reason: found thread

www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,554
Likes: 262
F
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
F
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,554
Likes: 262
Kevint,

We need some more information to promote speculation on this project.

When you say a "3' pipe through the berm", is that a 3' diameter pipe? If so, then I expect it is not running full most of the year, but is somewhere from a trickle to a steady flow X inches deep when it has not rained recently.

Your available water flow plus the 10' available drop makes several types of powered projects possible. Either generating electricity (to run a commercial "solar-powered" aeration system) or pumping water and using a system like Cecil's to aerate that flowing water.

One of the main things you mentioned wanting to improve is the water clarity. I think you probably need to run a jar test to measure the turbidity in your pond. If suspended clay is your problem then you probably need help with chemistry rather than aeration. If your water clarity is low due to an algal bloom in your pond, then that is probably good for your bass since that is the base of the food chain.

Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
K
Kevint Offline OP
OP Offline
K
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
Ok, I think the trompe system is out. Very cool, but I don't think I'll get enough air.

Quarter acre brought up a point about the drain pipe washing the aeration back out of the pond. Which I hadnt thought about, but i think would happen with any kind of aerator, unless I put the diffuser in the drain pipe, which I was not.

The Cecil Baird idea is cool but it sounds like it involves pumping water. I'm trying to stay away from running electric to the pond.

I realize in my original post I just said compressor. I was looking at a compressor meant for a windmill, which they claim operates, minimally I'm sure, at as low as 3-5 mph winds. Which tells me it spins fairly easily. My drain puts out approximately on average 1 gallon per second. 60 gpm. My math tells me, I'm no engineer this is probably wrong. On a 5 foot waterwheel, I would have 1200 foot pounds per minute, or 20 pounds per sec. Which if geared right, I was thinking belt drive. I could spin the compressor at a decent speed.

And I may not even NEED additional aeration, but I figure it wouldn't hurt if I was planning on using beneficial bacteria to help clean up the muck, and figure the fish won't mind either

All that being said, I still enjoy hearing other ideas from everyone. I've learned a bit already.

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,317
Likes: 87
Online Content
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,317
Likes: 87
The 3 foot diameter drain pipe lead me to think the pond had a real heavy throughput. That's a huge pipe for a 1 acre pond, but the average flow you are stating is not so heavy for that size of pipe . At 1 gallon per second , equivalent to 60 GPM, and assuming your 1 acre pond has about 2 million gallons...the turn over rate for completely exchanging the pond's water contents, simply, is about once every 23 days. Probably longer since it is not and exact put-and-take situation. That sounds like aeration would be much more efficient than I originally thought while assuming a heavy throughput.

With any throughput flow and aeration of any type, the aerated water will flow out of the pond (Imagine dying the pond - within 23 days, thereabouts, almost all of the dye will be gone) The higher the flow the less good your system will be doing and the larger the system would need to be to compensate for the loss of aerated water, but at 60 GPM, I suspect the standard size system would be fine. Putting a diffuser in the drain pipe confuses me with respect to what you were thinking. You might as well put it in your bathtub compared to in the drain pipe...lol. The best place for most of the diffusers would be where the water comes into the pond (assuming low DO in the spring water)...aerate it as soon as it enters the pond, giving the aerated water as much time in the pond as possible before exiting through the drain pipe.

If is was contemplating aerating this pond, I would buy a DO test kit and test the water coming in the pond, out in the middle, & near the drain pipe. At the deeper areas (middle and near the drain), sample water from about 12 inches below the surface. The "CHEMetrics K-7512 Dissolved Oxygen Kit" is as affordable (60-$70) and reliable as you can get without spending hundreds of dollars. It comes with enough "stuff" to do 30 tests. If your DO levels are good, I would concentrate on making your contraption do something to beautify the pond rather than aerate. Unless. of course, you are trying to maximize the fish capacity and attack th ebottom muck of the pond, then aeration would be key.

As far as a water wheel goes, I am interested in what you mean by "1200 Foot-Ponds per Minute". I do not recall seeing torque expressed with a factor of time. In my mind, you would need to know how much torque (foot-pounds or inch pounds) it takes to turn the wind mill pump to make sure the water mill can produce that torque. This will likely be a variable with the output CFM's of the pump, so you would be looking for a curve with torque on one axis and CFM on the other axis. As little as "3-5 mph winds" means the pump is producing very little air production compared to much higher wind speeds.

The next trick would be estimating how big the water mill would need to be and the gearing to the pump (or pulley reduction), given your average water flow, to supply the torque and RPM to produce the CFM's (and pressure) to properly aerate the pond. This type of calculations makes my head spin and might be a matter of experimentation without consulting a Professional Engineer or someone specialized in water wheels. Sounds like a fun project!


Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
K
Kevint Offline OP
OP Offline
K
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
Yea, 3' drainpipe is deceiving. It does seem extreme for the pond output.

The diffuser in the drainpipe was a joke.

I think doing a few DO tests is a good idea. Tho I don't think I NEED more oxygen, considering I do have a good bit of big largemouth that seem healthy. But I would like it to be able to support more fish and like I've said my main reason is to clean up the muck.

I know ft lbs per minute is not a real measurement, but my thinking is 60gpm is 480 lbs of water per minute. With 2.5' radius wheel, that's 1200lbs of force every minute. Or 20lbs per second.

I'm still trying to find specs as far as how much torque needed to spin the compressor.

Another question I have. The pond tapers from shallow at the input creek to about 9' deep across the back where the drainpipe is, with the exception of a hole near the back corner that goes to 16' deep. Would it be better to put the diffuser in the shallower water near the input creek, or in the deep hole?

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes: 12
L
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
L
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 159
Likes: 12
Water wheel calculations are fairly straight forward. Potential Power (HP) is (H*Q*g)/746, or in this case (5)(8)(32.2)/746 = about 1.75 HP. Actual calculations would be a function of waterwheel efficiency and actual mounting location (your H value could change significantly depending where you mount it).

Torque then is your HP / (RPM/5252).

RPM can be calculated from w=r*v/r^2 where V is the velocity of the falling water, w is the angular velocity of the wheel, and r is the radius of the wheel. Velocity squared = H*2*g, using our same H value we get SQRT(5*2*32.2)=17.9 ft/sec. w=(2.5)(17.9)/(2.5*2.5) = 7.16 rad/sec. RPM = 7.16*60/2*pi=68 RPM.

So your maximum theoretical torque is 1.75/(68/5252) = 135 ft-lbs. This will again vary widely based on your efficiency, design, and location of your water wheel, but it gives you a place to start if you find a torque curve for the compressor.

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,317
Likes: 87
Online Content
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,317
Likes: 87
Nice number crunching lmoore!

Originally Posted by Kevint
...Another question I have. The pond tapers from shallow at the input creek to about 9' deep across the back where the drainpipe is, with the exception of a hole near the back corner that goes to 16' deep. Would it be better to put the diffuser in the shallower water near the input creek, or in the deep hole?

It depends on a number of things, but simply put...you get the best water turnover with a deeper setting of the diffuser. That is, if your pump can pump to that depth with an appropriate amount of air volume.

A 1 acre pond with about 2 million gallons of water will turn over once in a day with only one diffuser at a depth of 10 feet. If I were setting only one diffuser in that pond, I'd put it in, or close to, the 16 foot hole and gain more turnovers in a day, once in 14 hours, thereabouts. This assumes you can build the pressure (~9 psi depending) and maintain the 1-2 CFM requirement of the diffuser.

The only thing that would change my mind would be if the incoming spring water was low in DO. Then I would have to think about what location would best suit the single diffuser. That's were the DO testing would come in handy. If you found a low DO area on a particular side of the pond, I'd move the diffuser closer to that spot, given that is a consistent low DO area and does not move around on you. If that would be the case...I'm back to putting it in the deepest hole or, at least, near it on the shallow side of the deepest spot.

Keep in mind that I have only thrown out my thoughts for a single diffuser system. A 1 acre pond would do better with a couple more spread out from each other. On paper, the lift rate numbers crunch fine for a single diffuser, but I cannot comment on how much of the water surrounding that one diffuser gets recirculated top to bottom again and again leaving waters further away mostly untouched. Adding diffusers requires more CFM, obviously...so, you may be limited to what the contraption can supply.


Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,554
Likes: 262
F
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
F
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,554
Likes: 262
Kevint,

Thanks for the additional info - you already have several people crunching numbers for possible projects!

The 3' diameter pipe may be extreme for "normal" flow, but that pipe may also serve the function of your emergency spillway.

Does that 3' drain pipe run full bore for a little while after you get a "frog strangler" rain? If so, then you need to plan for your mechanical devices to be protected when your pond goes into flood stage.

You could install a small siphon pipe with an automatic shut off when the water level gets too low. That might allow you to "right size" your pipe flows to exactly match the mechanical requirements of any device that you install.

Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
K
Kevint Offline OP
OP Offline
K
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
You guys are awesome

So, this project does sound feasible. Considering the airmax aerator uses 1/2 - 3/4 hp motor. Now I'm sure it's a different type of compressor, but still even at 50% of the hp and torque numbers you gave, it sounds like I should be able to make enough power. Unless I'm comparing apples to oranges.

BTW, the compressor I'm considering is the Outdoor Water Solutions, BalCam II. Upto 4.5CFM @30 PSI. I can't find anywhere a spec sheet claiming how much air at a certain rpm.

FishinRod,

Even after hard rains, it doesn't pour full bore. When they installed the pipe, someone put some sort of mesh fabric over the pipe on the pond side, which is kinda cool, acts as a time release. Obviously it dumps more after after a rain but not super crazy. Actually throughout the year the water level fluctuates about 1.5'.

I attached a screenshot of the pond.

The inlet creek is at the bottom left corner. The drainpipe is about the middle of the top. The deep hole is in the top left corner

Attached Images
Screenshot_20220614-160558_Earth.jpg (49.09 KB, 24 downloads)
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,554
Likes: 262
F
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
F
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,554
Likes: 262
Good deal that you have observed the "flood" flows. I didn't want your newly engineered project to get washed away after a big rain!

Sometimes the drain pipe is "over-engineered" for the safety margin. Sometimes I think it is because the farmer that built the pond already had some old 3' culvert available - and that factor set the size of the drain pipe. wink

1 member likes this: Quarter Acre
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
K
Kevint Offline OP
OP Offline
K
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 7
Likes: 1
It Originally was a galvanized pipe, I heard they had issues with that and replaced it with a double wall plastic pipe which they had a 90 deg turned up pipe in the pond, so it used to be bigger and 3-4 feet deeper. But they built the pond about the same time they built the house in late 60's. Not sure who designed the pond.

From other things I was looking at, I'm thinking I want the water to hit the wheel at about the 10 o'clock position. Any input on that? And how much will higher vs lower effect the efficiency? Will 2' fall be better than a 1' fall?

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,317
Likes: 87
Online Content
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,317
Likes: 87
The more fall you have the more force and velocity the water will have hence more power. If I understand lmoore's calcs, the "H" would be the height between the exit of the pipe and where it hits the wheel. It might even include the elevation drop while in the pipe. The larger "H" is, the more horsepower you get out of it.

The only thing I can say about the water hitting the wheel at a particular clocking is it depends on the angle at which the water is hitting the wheel. If the water is dropping straight down, then 10 o'clock would sound about right (maybe closer to 9:30..IDK for sure), but if the water has more of a horizontal flow, below 9 would make more sense.

Last edited by Quarter Acre; 06/16/22 08:03 AM. Reason: typo

Fish on!,
Noel
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,554
Likes: 262
F
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
F
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,554
Likes: 262
Originally Posted by Kevint
From other things I was looking at, I'm thinking I want the water to hit the wheel at about the 10 o'clock position. Any input on that? And how much will higher vs lower effect the efficiency? Will 2' fall be better than a 1' fall?

I have looked at some projects like yours because we have a live stream on our farm.

I understand some of the engineering when people discuss their projects, but that is FAR away from my engineering background.

I think a separate pipe (2" or 3"? PVC) utilizing all of the available fall would provide the most energy. For example, a horizontal drain pipe with a 22.5 or 45 elbow and down-leg chute onto your mechanical device at the bottom of your outlet waterway.

Hopefully you can find some specific projects on the internet, and then adapt them to your available conditions.

Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 100
R
Offline
R
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 100


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Connor Kelley
Recent Posts
Long distance sprayer
by Jackinthabox - 06/26/22 08:29 AM
What attacked this SMB?
by Shorty - 06/26/22 08:12 AM
What did you do at your pond today?
by Bobbss - 06/26/22 12:57 AM
Pond Leakage
by teehjaeh57 - 06/25/22 11:05 PM
Too much muck for spawning
by That One Guy - 06/25/22 10:49 PM
How to dig out a settlement pond?
by esshup - 06/25/22 06:16 PM
Air pump question
by Quarter Acre - 06/25/22 05:55 PM
Juvenile Hybrid Stripers Dying
by Snipe - 06/25/22 02:02 PM
Orangespotted Sunifsh
by Snipe - 06/25/22 01:42 PM
Pond Redo
by RStringer - 06/25/22 01:30 PM
Aeration with NO storage
by highflyer - 06/25/22 11:02 AM
Just limed my backyard pond
by esshup - 06/25/22 12:14 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
New Record Bluegill
New Record Bluegill
by Theo Gallus, June 10
pond 6
pond 6
by Stressless, May 10
Molly Ann surveys her new Puppydom
Molly Ann surveys her new Puppydom
by Mongos Pond, January 28
Fry
Fry
by CityDad, January 20
Baldcypress
Baldcypress
by Stressless, January 11
Still active
Still active
by Shorty, December 15

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5