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Please don't hate me with my newbie question. I live on a small 3/4 acre property. I'm a former landscape guy, who's landscaped and built ponds. I actually just finished a small pond on my front yard, it's more for looks and bait. I installed a waterfall, a couple of fountains, and lit it up. But my pond in the front is again for looks (landscape.) It's only 10 x 15 feet.
I have an area in the back, but not a whole lot of room to play with due to structures and things on our property.
If I wanted a pond for just afternoon fishing and relaxing and feeding a family of (3) at the dinner table only at night. How big of a pond would I need? Species would be Channel Cats I think.
I'm only playing with about 70 feet in length x 30 feet wide. How many catfish could I stock. How many would it produce throughout the year? Or how many lbs would it produce throughout the year? Would it be enough to feed only a family of 3 at the dinner table at night or is that a stupid question.
Again, forgive me if it's a stupid question or if I don't have enough room for what I'm trying to do. I'm new to the fish stocking thing. There's another 1/4 acre of empty un-maintained land behind us that I'd love to have, but the old man that owns it won't sell it to us, nor maintain it. lol
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I guess I should have mentioned above. If I don't have a lot of room to play with, can I go deeper rather than longer or wider than the 70 x 30? Would it work if I went something like 15' deep? I have a Bobcat and also access to excavators.
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No question is a bad question. Welcome to the forum!
Channel Cats are very smart, so if you catch them and release them you will have a hard time catching them a 2nd time. Will you be filtering and cleaning the water or letting nature take it's course? Will you be aerating the water to keep the O2 levels up?
It all matters when you are talking about carrying capacity, which you are wanting to know about. I picked up Channel Cats from a supplier last week and they said they are growing them from fingerling to 2+ pounds each in 15 months.
You are talking about roughly 1/20th of an acre surface area.
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You could probably grow 70 or 90 lbs of fish per summer and a similar weight of trout in the winter. So something like 150 3" Mozambique YOY TP when temps are above 70 F and something like 50 8" CC each year. If YOY, the TP won't spawn in most years but could in some. The small recruits could feed CC or RBT as they die over winter. So at 90 lbs we are talking a standing weight of 1866 lbs/acre. You could have two crops if you would grow trout in the winter.
Last edited by jpsdad; 05/29/22 09:26 PM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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No reason to go deeper than 8-10' if continuous aeration is planned, it'll all be mixed anyway. Research optimum growth temps of the species you want to raise and then figure out the best way to keep it there.
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jpsdad needs to show powerlifting texa how he has supported close to a ton of fish in his own pond. Otherwise, powerlifting texa, you may want to take the numbers up slowly and avoid having a humongous fish kill. jpsdad may be the only pond owner in Texas who can routinely stock such a large weight of fish with 100% success. Have a nice day, jpsdad.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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powerliftintexa, I've done the RBT/Tilapia combo for year round forage, and here are my thoughts based on personal experience. Mozambique tilapia can be safely stocked at 65 degrees. There probably won't be algae in your new pond, and if you do have it, it won't be enough to successfully feed the tilapia. Because of that, you'll need to supplement their food with fish food, which will also feed the catfish. The catfish growth will probably out pace the tilapia growth, which means that you'll be feeding fish food to the catfish anyway.
Stocking RBT has it's issues also. Texas hatcheries make runs up north to pick up RBT, and you may be required to put in an order to even get the RBT at the size you want. TX hatcheries don't want to keep them any longer than they have to, or feed them for any length of time. A variable will also be what your water temp is in relation to the pickup date of the RBT. If they aren't close, you could potentially kill the newly stocked RBT. Unfortunately, I lost around $400 worth of beautiful RBT over that same issue. Most likely, there will be a gap in the tilapia fall life span and the RBT stocking, so again, you'll be feeding the catfish pellets. RBT lifespan "should" overlap the spring stocking of Tilapia, so that is a plus. Snipe had mentioned your pond water being mixed, and that's the unknown variable. If catfish keep the pond water stirred up looking for food, then the RBT won't excel. RBT need clear oxygenated, or low biomass loaded water.
Bottom line is that at some point in the year, you will need to supplement the catfish's food anyway. Prices for Tilapia and RBT are also rapidly rising like everything else, so the financial aspect is something to consider. If you do want to try the RBT/Tilapia mix in a 70X30 pond, then go slowly, and ease into it. IIRC, catfish are the #1 fish sold by TX hatcheries, and I'd be willing to bet that most of those that are fed, are pellet fed.
AL
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Here's the deal...no pond in Texas can support more than 600-700 pounds of food fish per acre for very long...if you have that many fish at the same time. Water would need to be exchanged, aerated, and amended. That means a way to remove water, add fresh well water, aeration 24/7. But what you can do is what I call "crop" your fish as they get to your target weight. Basically, harvest fish as they grow and don't allow such a small pond to try to sustain a high standing crop. It's deceptive to think any pond in the south can carry a heavy load of fish at one time.
I've grown lots of fish...for many years. The best successes I've had growing fish for food is to push a pond of a given size, in this case, 2100 square feet (.0482 acre). A pond that size would be hard pressed to sustain a full carrying capacity of much more than 50 pounds of fish at any given time without constant attention to water quality. But, it could probably produce a total of 100 pounds, stretched out over a full season, if you keep the carrying capacity below that 50 pound target, and you have the ability to exchange water. Feeding is a must. Feeding grows fish and influences water quality, hence the need to crop the fish as they grow and exchange water as needed.
When we pushed our 1/10 acre ponds, we could grow upwards of 100-150 pounds of fish...as long as I opened the drain, dropped off a foot of water, then immediately fill with fresh well water...and we harvested fish with a seine at least four times per year. If we didn't do that, we had issues.
In today's world, there's another growing issue, particularly in Texas, where I pay most attention. When I try to push a tiny pond like that, inevitably, not only do I have to pay attention to water quality, fish health and growth, but also to predators. In such a confined space, Cormorants and River Otters can have their way and completely clean out the fish population.
That's especially true if you overwinter some of your catfish and also plan to double-crop with rainbow trout. For a pond as small as 2100 square feet, you could probably harvest 40-50 pounds of catfish as they reach a pound and a half...over the entire growing season. Leave the water shallow enough to be able to pull a seine through it to harvest fish. Don't count on them biting a hook. At least half your catfish won't ever bite a hook. Been there, done that, seen it over and over. You might be able to trap some in a cylinder-trap, but that's another conversation.
Not saying, "don't do it", just telling you to go in with eyes open. Plan to deal with water quality, regular harvest, and keeping predators at bay.
Teach a man to grow fish... He can teach to catch fish...
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power, Here is a channel cat thread from earlier this year. Some of the experts added some good advice that might help in your situation. Raising Catfish to Feed FamilyGood luck on your catfish pond project!
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powerlifting, Hey I wasn't trying to encourage a fish kill at all. The impression I had was that you wanted to know the maximum weight of fish you could grow in a 1/20th acre pond farming fish for food. That happened to be the maximum weight I thought you could (should limit yourself to) achieve. The rate I recommended of 1000 CC/acre is recommended in Texas when feeding without aeration. The booklet can be found via Texas A&M here. So obviously once CC get to be about a pound, if all survived, there is a standing weight of 1000 lbs of CC per acre. That is as far as would push the catfish. But I do like the MOZ TP to go along with them. Swingle found that the CC ate most of the feed while MOZ TP consumed the wastes and gained on the things that the CC couldn't utilize. One of the benefits of TP is that their presence can improve water quality. They achieve that by preventing wastes from building up on the bottom and consuming phytoplankton. Swingle found, and this has been repeated numerous times, that the presence of TP doesn't not interfere with the growth of the catfish. You feed only the catfish ... whatever the TP gain is a bonus crop that takes no extra feed at all. I was thinking somewhere between 400 and 800 lbs/acre of TP could be grown in addition ... but I don't know for sure ... hence the "probably grow 70 to 90 lbs" But don't take my word for it. There is a lot of information out there. One of biggest problems one can get into with a small pond is over-feeding. The CC are going Six-tuple in weight in a grow out and the TP probably 8-tuple or more. So at the start of the season you won't have a high standing weight of fish (unless you are making incomplete harvests). You should understand the standing weight throughout the grow out so that only the recommended weight of feed is given. This will help to limit deterioration of water quality and will improve FCR. As you approach the end of the grow out the standing weight of fish, depending on stocking and feed rates, can attain weights that could cause concern and might require curtailment of feeding. Of course, as the weight gets higher the fish actually need more feed to keep growing. So if you begin to see catfish piping in the morning, this is a good time to consider harvesting and stopping the feed. Also this is good time to review your records and plan the following year to reduce the number of CC so that the feed to take them to grow out's end is no more than what you fed. Incomplete harvest is going to hurt FCR in subsequent years. Big CC do not convert as well as fingerlings. They can eat some of the overstock too. So a means of complete harvest will improve production. The TP will not survive winter so a complete harvest is in order for them too. You should expect 5" to 8" TP at the end of grow out. They are small but they can be cleaned on the round or fileted if you don't mind a small filet.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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While Phil's advice matches what the extension books say, it's what they don't say that people need to understand. The books don't tell you there will literally be thousands of small tilapia taking up space and that the catfish won't eat the little darlings, nor will those baby tilapia grow big enough to feed you. You'll have a bunch of small fish to do something with, like make cat food. Books also won't tell you that tilapia can't withstand high levels of ammonia or its byproducts as it de-nitrifies in your water...and that tilapia are notorious for producing lots of ammonia via metabolism. Those papers also don't tell you that different types of water chemistry are affected by biological byproducts from fish metabolism. I've raised channel catfish and tilapia in combination. Catfish growth rates don't seem to be affected differently by the presence of tilapia as long as we properly fed them. Both species will actively chase the feed. Catfish have a slight competitive advantage because they are bigger. With both species, each time I did it, was disappointed at the end of the year to have so few tilapia big enough to eat and so many small ones that didn't have a place in our program in November. We'd bring the 4" fish into the aquaponics system I had back then, four 1,000 gallon tanks, and overwinter them to sell the next year, but the majority of poundage of tilapia were too small to eat. We did that about four years in a row and gave up. We'd only end up with about 15-20 pounds of tilapia fillets (ever filleted a 6" tilapia?) and 60-70 pounds of catfish carcasses for the freezer. I could tell when the water quality was about to go south when the bloom changed and fish became slightly lethargic with feeding, so I'd drain off a foot of water and then add fresh well water. That became a bi-weekly practice by August, until we drained each pond in November. In my opinion, from doing that combination long enough to see how it really worked, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze for the return on investment to feed our family. Shifted those hatchery ponds to bluegills to sell for stocking other's ponds. That juice was worth it. Phil is correct with his reference to the literature, but like Paul Harvey said during his decades on the radio waves, "And that's the Rest of the Story." Sometimes the crossover between the literature and reality has some gaps. Ask me how I know.😊
Teach a man to grow fish... He can teach to catch fish...
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Yes, I agree it won't work well if the TP are reproducing and this is why I recommended TP YOY. Ideally TP fry don't show up until the end of grow out. In Swingle's treatments, the Moz TP did not always spawn even though they reach sexually maturity within the grow out. In his treatments, when they spawned the fry were a small proportion of the biomass of TP. I guess the devil is in details in terms of replicating Swingle's results. The age of the TP are important. Their hatch date should be in May or early June, no earlier. Overwintered TP of any size will reproduce soon after stocking and produce the results that you warn us about early in the grow out. If you followed Swingle's protocol then you have given me some food for thought.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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There is a reason most aquaculture for food is single species on fish food with constant water quality management. All those multi-species variables (all depends) seem to get in the way! Experience is a demanding teacher!
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jpsdad, I am seeing that you are giving a LOT of advice on the forum. I have a question and I'd really, really like an answer. I asked this before and you artfully dodged answering it.
How much of this information that you are giving on the forum is gleaned from different publications, either on-line or in print and how much of the advice that you are giving is by your direct, hands-on experience?
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Phil, your advice is solid...and theoretical in this case. In reality, suppliers have what they have. You get what you can get. I tried to overwinter small tilapia in my RAS. They died...every time I tried it. They can't be bought in Texas. Fish farmers want to sell what makes the most money for them, and it's not tiny tilapia in the spring.
Not disagreeing with what you said...you are right. But, I've made a good living for 42 years with hands-on, in the field, doing the things you write about. Doing my best to add to your good information with a small dose of reality. My reality, with your theories, can help more people.
I'm a big fan of the literature, whether from scientific journals, extension publications, foundations and other sources. But after years of scraping pond mud from under my toenails, raising fish, helping literally thousands of clients with thousands of ponds, I do understand what Swingle did. Dr. Richard O. Anderson is a personal friend (yes, he's still alive at 95), and the other researchers that built the data that guys like me use every day. I also understand the marketplace, what's available, what you can stock, and how every single pond is different. Love all that stuff. Theories are just that...theories. They give you a starting point. That's it.
I appreciate your calling me out about following Swingle's protocol. No, I didn't. Neither will any other pond owner. I play in the real world of the marketplace, not a controlled lab.
Teach a man to grow fish... He can teach to catch fish...
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jpsdad, I am seeing that you are giving a LOT of advice on the forum. I have a question and I'd really, really like an answer. I asked this before and you artfully dodged answering it.
How much of this information that you are giving on the forum is gleaned from different publications, either on-line or in print and how much of the advice that you are giving is by your direct, hands-on experience? esshup, interesting take on the words "artfully dodged". Anyways, the reason I don't answer these questions from Theo and yourself is because I consider them rhetorical. Said not for the answer but rather to say something. Given you've said it, your two cents have been published and it doesn't require an answer from me. I would just say that I respect experience. If I didn't respect experience, then I wouldn't respect science and experiments as much as I do. My father used to tell me, "Learn from other's mistakes". But in my fashion, I took that to mean "Learn from other's mistakes and successes". When I research, I am gaining knowledge from someone else's experience, something I like to do very much. When the report is peer reviewed, outlining methods, treatments, and controls for context ... further providing results and a discussion that is peer reviewed ... what's not to like? So yes I do respect experience and acquire knowledge from others experience. Everyone who reads my posts knows I have only recently acquired a property with a pond. The site is also ideal for commercial production of farmed fish. I do have an interest in farming crawfish there and co-cropping fish to support a planned recreational fishery. I'd like to start sooner than later but I have kids and a wife who are not ready for it yet. Anyways, I have never pretended to own a pond when I didn't have one. Furthermore, I have made every effort to credit those whose experience is the source of whatever facts or knowledge I have shared. Where I can I do try to provide these resources through links that make these publications accessible to every one. There are many ways to learn. One's own experience is only one of them. Think about, if that weren't true ... why would anybody come to Pond Boss Forum for knowledge if that weren't the case? I'll get my opportunities to learn from my own experience soon enough.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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I appreciate your reply, Bob. I agree that there are practical problems of obtaining YOY fingerlings. If the OP had shown interest I would have encouraged him to talk with the Overton's who carry an aquaponics grade in the 1" to 3". Can't say for sure they would be what he would need but one might be able to obtain certifiable YOY from them.
This is a combination I have personal interest in doing at small scale. Thinking of ways I might address supply issues like this ... one solution I've considered is to stock females that are already brooding eggs. They produce eggs according to weight and so one could stock a specified weight that would limit the fry below an acceptable limit. One would need to work out a place for the spawning to take place. Not really practical for most but it is something I am interested in doing to resolve practical supply problems for YOY. As described, it's not really practical at tiny scales like the OP's where only one female would brood too many fry.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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jpsdad wrote: "Everyone who reads my posts knows I have only recently acquired a property with a pond."
I feel this is a disconnect.
Using this 'catfish' thread as an example, I don't see how the original poster could glean from this post that you have never tried any of this, and thus in fact have no idea if this is even feasible:
"You could probably grow 70 or 90 lbs of fish per summer and a similar weight of trout in the winter. So something like 150 3" Mozambique YOY TP when temps are above 70 F and something like 50 8" CC each year. If YOY, the TP won't spawn in most years but could in some. The small recruits could feed CC or RBT as they die over winter. So at 90 lbs we are talking a standing weight of 1866 lbs/acre. You could have two crops if you would grow trout in the winter."
The success of the Pond Boss Forum is the sharing of experience and knowledge. Of course knowledge includes the sharing of technical publications and articles of interest, but as we've seen countless times, nothing is absolute with ponds and fish, and sometimes, jpsdad, you are 'presenting' theoretical absolutes as if they are realities.
Finally, I think some of the consternation comes from offering 'book' advice when another experienced person is taking their time to offer experience-based advice.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
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Gotta agree with Sunil, given a choice Ill take actual experience, if available, every time, over any article wrote up for the public information, based primarily on what they want you to know. I can look up articles on the internet by some pretty prominent people, including our big government, about the amazing qualities of otters and what beautiful playful harmless creatures they are, benefiting everybody in their wake, leaving you happy and gleeful to have been honored by their presence. that's why I take every published article with a grain of salt. Give me real life information based on experience.
All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
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jpsdad wrote: "Everyone who reads my posts knows I have only recently acquired a property with a pond."
I feel this is a disconnect.
Using this 'catfish' thread as an example, I don't see how the original poster could glean from this post that you have never tried any of this, and thus in fact have no idea if this is even feasible: Think about what this means if you are right. In essence, its like saying the experience of Swingle and others that replicated his results means nothing unless jpsdad or some other member replicates their results. Can you see where this isn't quite right? What if instead of Swingle and other scientists we applied the same litmus test to everything we the members have experienced? Sometimes reversing the order of things can make one take a step back and wonder how he thought the original in first place. But to your point, I think I can trust Swingle's experience. My post was a short little to "the point suggestion" of what I thought he could grow at the outer limit. It was meant to be a conversation starting place for further discussion. gehajake, it's OK with me that you don't trust science. I'd like to persuade you to warm up to it but everyone has their own way of doing things. I know when I write about technical things that it doesn't speak to many. Most are not inclined to finish reading them I think. Consider my thread on conversion, It may have reached only a couple regulars and few others. But I know if you studied it with the intent to understand it before passing judgment, you stand a good chance of understanding the importance of those principles and why no magic occurs despite anyone's experience. A couple of years ago I came across a paper where the authors provided equations for Feed rates and Gross FCR. The feed rate equation was regressed from tests they performed to discover feed rates that optimized Gross FCR for catfish of differing weights. The optimum feeding rate changes as the catfish grow . The idea of course was to lower the cost of producing catfish. Within a day I had a spreadsheet that I could use to grow out catfish according to their experience. Pretty cool don't you think? All their meticulous testing and record keeping. All that experience. So cool that I don't have to do all that in order to apply what they learned from experience. Sweet stuff to me anyways. Some time later, when learning how to plot SGR to find intrinsic FCR and the maintenance rate ... it occurred to me that I could test whether those scientists findings of Gross FCR were consistent with theory. Indeed the results of that regression confirmed beyond any shadow of doubt that their findings of FCR at the differing feeding rates were fully consistent with theory. Was very satisfying and it strengthened my trust in their findings and the theory as well.
Last edited by jpsdad; 06/01/22 09:52 PM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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jpsdad wrote: "Everyone who reads my posts knows I have only recently acquired a property with a pond."
I feel this is a disconnect.
Using this 'catfish' thread as an example, I don't see how the original poster could glean from this post that you have never tried any of this, and thus in fact have no idea if this is even feasible: Think about what this means if you are right. In essence, its like saying the experience of Swingle and others that replicated his results means nothing unless jpsdad or some other member replicates their results. Can you see where this isn't quite right? What if instead of Swingle and other scientists we applied the same litmus test to everything we the members have experienced? Sometimes reversing the order of things can make one take a step back and wonder how he thought the original in first place. But to your point, I think I can trust Swingle's experience. My post was a short little to "the point suggestion" of what I thought he could grow at the outer limit. It was meant to be a conversation starting place for further discussion. gehajake, it's OK with me that you don't trust science. I'd like to persuade you to warm up to it but everyone has their own way of doing things. I know when I write about technical things that it doesn't speak to many. Most are not inclined to finish reading them I think. Consider my thread on conversion, It may have reached only a couple regulars and few others. But I know if you studied it with the intent to understand it before passing judgment, you stand a good chance of understanding the importance of those principles and why no magic occurs despite anyone's experience. A couple of years ago I came across a paper where the authors provided equations for Feed rates and Gross FCR. The feed rate equation was regressed from tests they performed to discover feed rates that optimized Gross FCR for catfish of differing weights. The optimum feeding rate changes as the catfish grow . The idea of course was to lower the cost of producing catfish. Within a day I had a spreadsheet that I could use to grow out catfish according to their experience. Pretty cool don't you think? All their meticulous testing and record keeping. All that experience. So cool that I don't have to do all that in order to apply what they learned from experience. Sweet stuff to me anyways. Some time later, when learning how to plot SGR to find intrinsic FCR and the maintenance rate ... it occurred to me that I could test whether those scientists findings of Gross FCR were consistent with theory. Indeed the results of that regression confirmed beyond any shadow of doubt that their findings of FCR at the differing feeding rates were fully consistent with theory. Was very satisfying and it strengthened my trust in their findings and the theory as well. I'm not going to disagree with anything but what I highlighted in RED... That's the reason I do this, "the Magic"..
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Think I'll be little more direct. When I started this forum 20 years ago, it was to offer solid information and true-world experience. I love the science as much as anyone. The science of pond management is evolving. It truly is. No one can debate H.S. Swingle. That guy started it all with his work to help people grow protein during hard economic years. All the scientists did their individual work that is still becoming a body of work. The guys who make a living at it, like me, take that complete body, use it as we work with landowners in the real world to make it happen for them. I used to think pond management was about 10% science and 90% "art". I've changed my mind. We have more tools today, so it's more like 20% science and 80% art. Anyone here can debate that...just don't do it unless you've been out there for decades implicating many of those theories, only to figure out nature has two huge rules where she pushes back. Nature detests a void and a bounty. You can take all the theories and papers and science and throw that stuff in the mix, but when you are paid to produce results in nature, you have to learn that all the science in the world is nice, but most of the time, it's a piece of a much bigger puzzle.
If someone wants to raise some fish in a small pond, go for it! I'm in. I just probably won't have a ton of sympathy when I get that call that there was a fish kill from some random summer storm, or the otters ate the biggest fish just before they were harvested, or a comment comes across the transom that, "I spent way more money on raising fish for my family than if I'd bought them from a producer."
If anyone on this forum wants to speak from any authoritative position, I expect qualification. There's no way I can convince anyone I'm an "expert" unless I properly credit the science sources so as not to take credit myself, and get out there and do it. In my opinion, as a professional pond management guy, I have the most respect for those who have done it. Sure, I have respect for science that others do, but I'm not ever going to use that as my sole opinion. The variables of each situation keep me from that.
Phil, this next statement is directed to you. I love the science you look up. From reading several different threads, I see some push back toward what you are posting. Rather than speak as an expert, I think it would be better to give your advice, but do a better job of quoting the source. I can tell by reading what you write that you have a passion. I can also tell by reading what you write that you've not spent a lot of time actually doing what you write about. I think it would do your intelligence a better service if you answer these questions with proper credit to the source...just like you are writing a scientific paper, which you are.
I have a younger brother who used to say, "I learn from your mistakes." Glad he did, but like all of us, we still make our own...and there's no way anyone can learn from other's mistakes. All they can do is pull the first layer off that onion. Heck, I'm still learning from my mistakes, but now it just a lot more fun. One thing I've tried to teach my kids is, "You can't live with something until you live without it." They saw that way back, early in my entrepreneurial career, when I couldn't pay the electric bill for a few days. They had a greater respect for electricity after five days without it.
Here's the bottom line...advice from a book or scientific papers is good. I dare anyone to say otherwise. Those papers are typically narrow in scope and usually lead to other questions. I see scientific writings as one tool in my tool box. When I see someone write about something as a definitive expert because of something a researcher did under controlled situations, I respect it just for that....a controlled experiment in controlled, replicated circumstances to make sure the science is correct. I admire that, respect it and rarely use it. Grasping the theory is part of the deal, putting it to use where there are some controls is nice, but the reality is we have very little control over what nature wants to do in a pond in Pawhuska, Oklahoma compared to one in those rocky soils outside Nashville, Tennessee, compared to the acid water of Laurinburg, North Carolina. This stuff is a mix of a little bit of science and a whole lot of art, which comes with experience, luck, and a good fundamental understanding how nature works.
I hope my message comes across as intended, without arrogance or malice.
Teach a man to grow fish... He can teach to catch fish...
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Moderator Lunker
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Moderator Lunker
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Posts: 16,203 Likes: 314 |
Bob, you missed a variable: Rain
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,330 Likes: 721
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,330 Likes: 721 |
In dealing with natural things - "It always depends on the variables involved".
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Posts: 28,873 Likes: 953 |
Bob, I agree with you. The science gives us a great foundation to build upon. The thing that I find a bit off is quoting data that is anywhere from 49 to 88 years old as the way to do things now. That would be the same as saying that if you wanted to buy a new Ford car today, the best one to get is anything from a 1934 Deluxe Ford Tudor to a 1972 Ford Pinto.
Technology has changed greatly in those intervening years, and so has what we know about ponds. The basics are there, but we have progressed so much farther past the basics. There are so many variables that weren't considered back then, it's mind boggling. What was written in stone back then may still be written in stone, but I wouldn't want to place a large wager on it.
Look at Julius Poppe. If we still went by his pond management writings for food fish in ponds, there would be no reason to stock anything other than common carp in ponds.
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,622 Likes: 331 |
I have, as most of you know, posted lots of science on the Forum and written about it in the Mag for years. For every science article discussed there are 100 more at least not addressed. One of the things Dave Willis and I used to amaze over are the studies and replicates that had opposite results. We even tried a couple of times to track down the authors (often friends of ours) who were as shocked as we were. Those dadgum unknown variables. The real dangerous ones are when 2 or more groups of science writers are each sure they are correct on a topic in which they highly disagree (writing with a point to prove). Often all sides have part of the issued correct and part wrong, with no side having the real answer which may come 20 years later as a result of improved scientific ability and method.
Last edited by ewest; 06/02/22 11:15 AM.
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teehjaeh57, Omaha, FishinRod |
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Moderated by Bill Cody, Bruce Condello, catmandoo, Chris Steelman, Dave Davidson1, esshup, ewest, FireIsHot, Omaha, Sunil, teehjaeh57
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Lime
by FireIsHot - 10/14/24 07:43 AM
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