Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Trophy bass Catch-22?

Note: Catch-22 refers to a Kurt Vonnegut novel about World War II, not creel survey! The joke was that a pilot asked to be excused from bombing missions (ten percent losses each mission, 25 missions...you do the math) on the grounds of insanity, but was denied on the basis that their request was too sane. Catch-22.

So here's my dilemma: My BOW does great when it comes to panfish and HSB. I feed, they grow.

For the LMB, I stock rainbow trout (when available), threadfin shad, tilapia, golden shiners and this year crawfish. And, as mentioned, I feed the CNBG which are the backbone of the LMB diet. Also I cull LMB.

Result: Loads of LMB, but size max around 6 to 7 pounds. Electro survey shows the same as fishing results.

That's not bad if all I had were northern strain LMB. But I also put in some Florida strain, and some F1 a few years ago.

Here's my question: Bob Lusk has said repeatedly that gizzard shad are key to productive trophy lakes. However, gizzards get huge, up to 2 lb, so need lots of big predators to keep them from taking over. At least 25% of LMB greater than 18 inches.

So I need Gizzard shad to grow trophies, but I need trophies to stock gizzard shad. Catch-22.

Now my HSB are large, some in 10 lb range, and they could help control gizzard shad. But there's only 95 stocked, and thus fewer than that still alive.

So should I take the risk of stocking gizzards to get the ball rolling? Or should I be content with a good non-trophy LMB lake the way it is? What are some considerations for me to think about?

FYI I'm not an expert but I do know a thing or two about bass and pond ecosystem. The more bait you put in the water the better the bass will be as you know. Seems to be a good food chain as is right now. Depending on when your f1s and floridas were stocked my guess is they were consumed by your existing northern bass, assuming you stocked those florida bass as fingerlings. Thus why the growth across the board is not on par with Florida Bass potential because the pond is probably 99% northern bass genes right now. Though as you said a pond with 6-7lb northerns is not too bad.

However we all want bigger Bass so:

If it was me I would bring in a good amount of f1 or florida bass fingerlings this summer, enough so that some evade your existing Bass, and hope in the next few years those new fish get to trophy size. THAT is when I would bring in the gizzard shad once you know you have some REALLY big bass in there.

I think if I were in the same position ... I would be reluctant to pull the trigger on GSHD. My worry of doing so would be that there are too many small bass. This from Bill Cody:


My sense is that you have lots of forage but still too many LMB mouths. What if you held a tournament or something like that? Squeezed 4 boats with 8 anglers in that 8 acre pond and took every LMB under 14" out of the pond. That might get you to a sweeter spot for introducing GSHD. But even if you didn't add any GSHD, this would help your bigger bass profoundly by reducing competition.

I recall that you had a horrible time getting an electro-survey to harvest LMB and was disappointed in the results. You could probably earn some feed money doing a tournament. Charge $15 for a lease 1/2 day and then let them do what they want for entry and prizes. 8 anglers ... $120 for feed instead of $1000 out for electro-fishing.

OK so one pound of LMB harvest leaves behind 3-8 lbs of panfish ... BUT ... these surviving panfish can grow and will grow if they survive to grow a little longer. So the effect is to give the bigger bass more than 3 to 8 lbs of panfish. Another way of looking at this is that the mean weight of prey is ~ 1% of the LMB. This means that each pound of LMB harvested leaves 300 to 800 prey fish to grow for consumption by other bass (among which are your larger ones). IMHO, there is nothing you can do or add or spend that will have such a profound effect.

If you decide to stock more small F! and or Florida LMB in a bass crowded pond then I would remove at least 3 to 4 maybe 5 existing larger bass for each new bass stocked. This greatly improves the chances of survival of the new bass which is your goal.

And I'd fin clip the new arrivals so you didn't remove those the next time you wanted to remove some bass.

Lots of moving parts on this one to get the right answer!

As usual, I just have more questions.

What year(s) were the HSB, northern LMB, Florida LMB, and F1 LMB stocked?

In an East Texas pond, does the presence of 10# HSB with 6-7# LMB (of either strain) indicate that the LMB are lagging on the growth curve? If the LMB are not lagging, do they just need some more time to reach 10#+ trophy size? (Or even bigger for the Floridas and F1s?)

I believe the 6-7# LMB are really in the sweet spot now for the Florida strain to keep adding 1#+ per year while the northern strain are going to slow down significantly. Were any of the various bass strains marked to track their relative growth?

I would imagine that anthropic's pond contains some optimally sized BG and tilapia for the large LMB. Add in some bonus RBT snacks for the LMB and they should be adding weight at close to the maximum possible rate. However, is it possible to have optimal forage in a pond for LMB, but they do not have effective hunting grounds to catch forage efficiently? LMB are frequently described as ambush predators - is there a chance the 6-7# bass do not have effective cover to launch their attacks despite an abundance of suitable prey?

Whether there is enough appropriately sized forage to grow LMB beyond 6-7 lbs will be evident in the condition of fish in that size range. So a fish that is continuing to add weight spends at least some time each year notably above standard weight. Either Northern, Florida, or F1 LMB are capable of growth beyond 7 lbs so if condition appears limiting at this weight then the source of the problem is probably forage. IMHO growth to 6-7 lbs is pretty darn good and would exceed what most see without active culling and other management. From here however, I think it is mostly a numbers game where fewer LMB will allow remaining LMB to grow. This reshaping of the population structure can also set up the conditions that justify forage introductions that favor the larger fish.

Many thanks to the commenters! You've given me lots to think about.

anthropic that's exactly where I have always been....of course it's a personal decision, but I have never been fascinated with a trophy lake. It really never crosses my mind, I just enjoy catching varieties of fish and watching others do the same. 2EachHisOwn

I would hold off on the GShad until more info.

Can you provide a stocking schedule of what you did?

Also provide what process and when you added F-1 and Flas.

Stocking schedule: 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB & 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS -116

L = Limed (also before filling in 2015)
GSH = Golden shiners

I didn't have enough FHM spawning structure when pond first filled. Also, I made the mistake of adding adult TP in May 2016, Florida LMB in June. TP had no algae to eat, so polished off the FHM that were supposed to feed the little LMB. Result: stunted LMB. Added Northern LMB in 2017 to eat the stunted Fla LMB, along with GSH forage fish.

Added TP in 2018, along with first stocking HSB and 1000 PK shrimp. 2019, TP May and trout in December. In 2020, stocked threadfin shad, TP, and 25 more HSB. Also 250 F1 LMB for potential trophies, RBT in December. Harvested 206 LMB.

2021 added threadfin shad, TP, golden shiners, culled 312 LMB. This year, GSH, TP, 130 # crayfish, threadfin shad. Harvested 116 LMB so far.

Way above my pay grade, but I will chime in with my 2 cents before we get the actual expert responses.

If you have 6-7# northern strain LMB, then I think you have done very well and I would consider those "trophy" fish. You didn't state the size of the 250 F1 LMB you stocked in 2020. However, they are still relatively young fish. Personally, I would wait and see if you can get some much larger LMB from that stocking.

I predict that your lake record for a LMB is going to keep increasing, and that the record will probably get shattered after someone catches a big momma F1 in a few more years.

If all of that fails, only then would I shake up your good existing fishery with gizzard shad if you are still in pursuit of trophy LMB.

Good luck in your pursuit of monster LMB! That particular pursuit must be contagious, because I know lots of people that desire that same goal. (Just imagine how many people Lusk knows in that category!)

Thanks, Rod. I think very few of the original Florida LMB survived, and those that did were stunted so never reached their genetic potential. As you say, a 6 to 7 lb northern LMB is trophy size for those type of fish, though not for a Florida.

I've been spoiled since moving down South. Caught 5 exceeding 9 lb, 3 double digits. So now I consider a 10 lber trophy, rather than 7.

Since I have some F1s, perhaps will consider adding a small number of 1 plus pound Florida females. They have the right genetic potential and will reproduce desirable traits. Also looking to add more habitat.

I'm already blessed far more than I deserve. Being human, always want more!

I am definitely rooting for you to catch some double-digit LMB from your pond.

I am pretty sure you will get there with a little more time.

I even think adding the gizzard shad would help you get there if you perfectly timed their introduction. At some point your 5# bass would just be sucking up gizzard shad during the summer and turning into 10# bass.

However, your pond would then always contain gizzard shad! That would certainly affect the carrying capacity for all of the other species you enjoy. I am cautious enough that I wouldn't cross that bridge until I was sure that it had to be crossed. (But I suspect that I am both too cautious and too leery of gizzard shad!)

You could always ask from some more input from your "better half". Any chance she will be the first one to land a 10# LMB?

Hopefully some of the Texas gizzard shad experts will chime in.

Either way, I am definitely going to keep tabs on your experiment!

You know, Rod, I really wonder if it might be possible to add gizzard shad but mitigate the risk by use of rotenone treatments when & if they get out of hand. Apparently GS are more vulnerable to rotenone than other fish, so could reduce their numbers without harming other denizens of the deep. Also could take out larger GS by electro means, assuming they can be harvested this way.

Just a thought. Hopefully folks who are more familiar with GS can chime in!

I think you are better off than you believe. If only a few 5 or 6 Fla LMB survived to spawn then those genes are set in your pond. If only a few of the F-1s survived to spawn, more of the same. There are several published studies and some unpublished as well that show that , in southern waters , Fla genetics tend to increase over time where stocked into Northern LMB lakes.

I would want more info based on your facts before I pulled the GShad lever.

Bob has done several of these studies , see if you can get him to chime in. Also I have posted results from some of the studies.

I don’t have gizzard shad or regular shad , I have caught several 10#+ LMB from my 6 acre pond that was dug in 2013….I didn’t stock LMB cause I didn’t want them. Wanted crappie, stocked them and somehow they got here anyway. The BCP spawned the first year and from what I can tell that was the only time . Was catching lots of 6” BCP but the LMB have since decimated the population to where it’s hard to catch any….. wondering if that’s the reason for the large LMB. Got lots of 6-7-8# LMB also

I wanted some Texas gizzard shad experts to chime in, but you did get a Mississippi expert to chime in.

That is like catching a "bonus" fish when you are fishing for something else!

Wow, Pat. Wish I had your "problem" with too many big bass by accident!

Come get ‘em , every one I catch I take to my neighbors 25acre pond

anth, I've never used rotenone, but I think I wouldn't want to use it in any capacity in any BOW where there was fish I wanted to keep.

I think the greatest fear of introducing gizzard shad is infestation beyond control. I may be experiencing that same issue with intentional golden shiner stockings where numerous predators were present in a very captive situation.

I want to say Greg Grimes had trophy bass plans that included gizzard shad, so you could perhaps reach out to him. I don't think he comes here much anymore, but he's around.

Thanks for the info. Stocked golden shiners, TFS, and TP this year, though already had shad that survived relatively mild winter. Previous shiner stocking disappeared, guess they were eaten pretty quickly. I'm deliberately allowing more weed & algae growth this year in hopes of better forage fish and YOY survival.

I keep thinking gizzard shad will help develop 10 lb plus LMB, but the risk of ruining a perfectly decent non-trophy fishery makes me wary. Better to keep culling LMB, feeding CNBG, improving Fla LMB genetics, enhance habitat at key spots, I suppose.

"Let not ambition mock thy useful toil." Shakespeare

And the Texas guys chime in!

Pat,

How did the LMB get into your pond? Did they come in from your water source, or do you think they were bucket stocked?

If you don't have any neighbors that have introduced any Florida strain LMB, then do you think you have managed to raise some 10#+ northern strain?

How long after your 2013 pond start date did your LMB get to 6#? How many years to get to 10#?

I think your experience is a very encouraging data point for anthropic!

P.S. Awesome job on your lake management! (Well except for your crappie. Sorry about that.)

Rod I’m not sure how they got in. Possibly with unmonitored stocking of FHM from a fish truck(I know) . The first bass was caught in 2014 on a crappie jig and was about 3#(big surprise). I’m bad about record keeping but think after the first one was caught probably the next year there were plenty of 5-7#ers. Since then I have caught 3 that were over 10#. Right now I’m making lemonade. Bout all you can do at this point. Don’t know if any solution other than draining or relocation of larger bass which I have sorta been doing. To hot now to transfer biggies without killing them

Some may have been bucket stocked due to how fast they grew or that was because a new pond with lots to eat

There are some excellent GShad discussions on the Forum if you have not seen them. They cover the entire 9 yards on pros and cons.


https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthre...p;Words=GShad&Search=true#Post417106 --- many thread links in this one


https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255818&page=1 - Pond Boss Forum – sound comments in this one by Nate and Greg and others

Thanks ewest!

I had read those links before, but they are definitely good ones to add to this thread.

Thanks for the references, Eric! I'm gonna read through them, for the first time in some cases.

Late to the party, but my take. Anthro, how are your CNBG doing? That is the base of the LMB food chain. What are your HSB eating? Are they competing with the LMB food chain? They can and do also eat LMB.

In east Texas you will pretty much always have northern strain LMB as they are native. We live on one of the first lakes in Texas to stock Florida LMB as it was the home lake and lab for Charlie Inman, one of the TP&W pioneers on Floridas. We stock 3000 or so pure Florida LMB fingerings every year to keep the genetics coming. We figure if we get 10% survival we're doing good. We have also stocked a 100 or so Camelot Bell LMB in the 2# range a few years ago. We take 14" survey culls from managed pure Florida lakes in the area. We stock TFS every few years and get some recruitment. Our bluegill base is top notch. Tons of minnows. Try to keep the crappie fished down and in the freezer. Fight with the flatheads, otters, cormorants, and herons. Have a few remaining grass carp that need to go (20 years old). 50 acres, decent cover, deepest 19 feet, average 8-10. We catch one or two LMB over 10# in any given year (lake record 15#+), but the majority will be 6-9# for big fish. We never seem to be overstocked on LMB, either from fishing results or from shocking survey. Personally, I think you're expecting too much from a small BOW to think you will get multiple 10#+ LMB. A 10# LMB is a monster. We all know 20# fish exist, but how many vs the millions of fishermen and fishing hours invested.

Wow, lots of good additional data, Ross!

I think anthropic is near the upper reaches of his watershed. I believe he has complete control of the "large" fish species in his pond. (Hopefully he will wander in and correct me if I am wrong!)

I like following his pond "experiment" because he has control of some of the important variables!

Ross, you may well be right that I expect too much from a 7 acre BOW. I have lots of 7 - 11 pound fish, if you count the HSB. My CNBG are thriving and rapidly approaching 2 pounds, something that I would have considered impossible ten years ago. Maybe expecting an occasional 10 lb plus LMB on top of all that just isn't realistic, despite all the effort & money spent to supercharge things. But as Robert Browning remarked, a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?

James I think you might already have a 10#er and just don’t know it…2# BG? Wow that’s a hoss. I’ve got big LMB but bg are less than a # but tons of them

Sounds like you're doing a great job, Pat. I know you're frustrated with giant LMB eating your crappie, but to most pondmeisters that's a problem they'd love to have!

It's possible there are a couple of ten plus beauties at my place and we just have never caught or shocked them up. For sure our lines have been snapped on many occasions, usually by a rampaging lunker HSB, but sometimes it might have been a trophy LMB. I'll keep working on it!

I think an occassional 10#+ is very doable. I was reading multiple 10# consistently. I caught an 8#+ and an 11# within an hour of each other this week in the same hole, 16' deep under a log. First big fish in a while. My neighbor had an evening run and the following morning run with two 9#, two 7#, and a 6#. I think that's excellent for any BOW. We both had an extensive big fish dry spell before this. The fish are always there unless something very unfortunate happens. They generally don't need to eat our baits in a well managed lake, so we're lucky when they do.

Outstanding results, Ross! I assume this is a private lake, few public lakes can offer such fishing. What management practices are followed? And are these Florida LMB, F1, or what?

Catching two lunkers under a log in 16' makes me wonder: Why are they at such a depth given the lack of oxygen in summer? That's well below the thermocline in the vast majority of Texas waters! At my place, by late May/early June anything deeper than 10' is anoxic.

We're spring fed and only recently closed the bottom drain. Yes, private 50 acre lake, 70 years old. We have man made brush piles, several natural blowdowns, and docks of course. Other than that not a lot of cover. I'm trying to re-establish beneficial native vegetation with mixed results. I have to fence everthing or the turtles and a few old grass carp will decimate it. I have a fair stand of various water lilies now, some Illinois pond weed, and one small cage of eelgrass.

We stock 3000 or so Florida fingerlings every year. We buy a few hundred 12-14" Florida's from managed lakes when available. A few years ago we bought a few Camelot Bell mature bass as well. We stock threadfin shad as needed. We get fair reproduction and with mild winters they survive well. Tons and tons of evey variety of blue gill. We also have crappie and a few catfish. We have a few feeders that are kept up. This lake gets overflow from a lake above so we also have native bass in the mix. This lake was one of the first in Texas to have Florida bass as it was the home lake of Charlie Inman, the Texas Parks and Wildlife biologist that brought the first Floridas into the hatchery. We fight cormorants and otters.

Thanks, Ross. I hadn't realized how close our places really are, the only Winona I've ever heard of is Winona Ryder! My pond is just a few miles east of Hallsville. Gives me some hope I can replicate your results.

I started with pure Floridas, but they stunted due to lack of food (long story, dumb tax involved). Probably a few jumpers survived, but eventually had to stock northern strain to clear out all the small LMB. Stocked 250 F1 in 2020, but that's a lot less per acre than you've done. I was leery of stocking too many since I already struggle with excess LMB & must cull aggressively.

There's an interesting article in the May/June PB Magazine on the topic of LMB stocking to enhance genetics, in particular whether smaller numbers of 6 to 8" pure Floridas are best or larger numbers of F1 fingerlings. From your results at very similar locale, I think maybe would be smart for me to add a few larger pure Floridas. Preferably fin clipped females so they don't get harvested!

You'd be welcome to visit my place sometime, especially when the weather cools a bit in fall. I'd love to learn more about your techniques for deep water angling, something I rarely do. And culling small LMB is always on the menu! Also would be interested in any suggestions you might have. I'll PM you with contact info if you are interested.