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#547850 05/13/22 12:44 PM
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A big shoutout to Bob Lusk and all the moderators here at Pond Boss for creating and maintaining an excellent playground for all to discuss, share, and learn more. Although we don't get involved in many discussions, we always make time to check in on the forum to see what everyone is up to and follow the threads. The progress at your ponds, the collaborative innovations, the stories, and the camaraderie this forum has is truly inspiring.

We spend a lot of time in one-on-one conversations with customers, pond and lake managers, and pond owners discussing all aspects of fish feed. Just like this forum, these conversations lead to great questions. With that, we wanted to start this thread to provide answers to questions you have.

Our goal isn't to make anyone change what they are doing, switch feed providers, or prove someone wrong. There is no ill-will between Optimal and other feed companies. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Growing up with the odd passion for fish food, we looked up to those in the fish feed industry and still do. Who would have thought, as a small company not even big enough to field our own baseball team, that we would have been able to enter an industry alongside the best of them with such a fantastic cast of customers. I believe Bob could attest to this; there is plenty of fish to feed, and just seeing how far we can push the boundaries of what is possible in our ponds is the ultimate goal of why we do what we do.

With that, we are not going to try to sell you Optimal with our answers. Instead, we want to provide our background and knowledge and answer as many of your feed questions as possible. Hopefully, some of the answers will lead to more questions. I look forward to having some fun and learning together.

Thanks again to all of you for contributing to such a great resource!
Nathan Schulz
Optimal Fish Food

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Thank you for the post hopefully there will be some interesting questions and answers. And I hope we can conduct it with respect to all that respond. And we try to keep answers so that those of us that don't hold several doctoral degrees can understand

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Thanks Nathan/Dustin!!


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I'll throw out the first question, because I get asked this quite frequently, and I'll keep it in a more general theme. The 2nd question is more detailed.

Will Yellow Perch and Hybrid Striped Bass grow just as well on regular "general" fish food or should they have food specifically for them?

I know this doesn't apply to a pond setting, i.e. it's hard to know the answer with fish in a pond where they they have natural food to eat, but is there a way to determine how much of the food the fish is actually utilizing and how much of the food (when I say food I mean nutrients in the food) is passing through the fish and is not digestible?


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Originally Posted by esshup
I know this doesn't apply to a pond setting, i.e. it's hard to know the answer with fish in a pond where they they have natural food to eat, but is there a way to determine how much of the food the fish is actually utilizing and how much of the food (when I say food I mean nutrients in the food) is passing through the fish and is not digestible?

I'd like to offer some subtle improvements to this question. The conversion of anything a fish eats, whether it eats a formulated feed or natural prey item, is less than perfectly efficient. It requires energy to assimilate food and so some of the food is digested just to provide the energy. The waste product of this conversion to energy is not food that is not digestible. Instead the wastes are products of oxidation which is part of the digestion process. For protein, the products are primarily ammonia and carbon dioxide both of which are expelled as water soluble wastes. The better question is how much of the feed is assimilated because everything the fish doesn't retain leaves the fish.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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I'll throw a question out. What are the chances my red ear sunfish will visit my feeder frequently with optimal junior if they haven't been pellet trained in cages? They are small 2-4" and newly stocked.

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Russel????!!!!!!!!!

You're back to posting after...like 12 years!!!!!

Miss you!!!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Hi Sunil, yes, happily made it back! Been thru several properties over the years, last one didn't have sizable water and really missed this place. I'm starting over again with a new property and a 3 acre muddy pond (for now). Took me a very long time to find what I wanted in my price range, but finally have it.

Battling muddy water to start, looked like coffee with a lot of creamer in it, little to no visibility. Have visibility to about 6" now with another round of Alum/Gypsum this week...working with small doses monitoring PH but underestimated what 27 acre feet would take. So far 700 lbs alum/500 lbs gypsum in. Will apply 300 lbs alum the 17th followed by 800 lbs gypsum on the 18th, wish me luck smile

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Awesome!!!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Welcome back.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Eastland - Hello again. Your pond with muddy water. You should first try to figure out what is making it cloudy. Did you do a jar test? Results can tell you a lot. If the stuff settles out the turbidity is being created within the pond; fix that cause first before wasting money on a treatment. If it doesn't settle then it will be cleared with gypsum / alum.

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For the Optimal folks, I have a question that so far nobody seems to have investigated. I hear different opinions from smart people, not agreement.

Here's the question: What is the impact of night feeding? I've been told this helps cut down on bird stealing food (geese are bad about this) and birds eating the fish that show up for feed (herons in particular). BG supposedly feed the same at night as during the day.

I've also been told that LMB have a vision advantage over BG when it's dark, so the BG are more reluctant to come out & feed at night.

What are your thoughts? Have you folks ever done any trials on night feeding?

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Originally Posted by anthropic
For the Optimal folks, I have a question that so far nobody seems to have investigated. I hear different opinions from smart people, not agreement.

Here's the question: What is the impact of night feeding? I've been told this helps cut down on bird stealing food (geese are bad about this) and birds eating the fish that show up for feed (herons in particular). BG supposedly feed the same at night as during the day.

I've also been told that LMB have a vision advantage over BG when it's dark, so the BG are more reluctant to come out & feed at night.

What are your thoughts? Have you folks ever done any trials on night feeding?

I can tell you from ice fishing at night that BG do little feeding after the sun sets. Ask anyone that crappie fishes how many BG they catch at night vs how many they catch during the day. They might feed when there is a full moon out and there is some light. I've Bass fished at night, typically with a black jitterbug and it works, but in shallow water. You need something that makes noise or sets up vibrations so the fish can find the lure with its lateral line.


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I have caught LMB at night on Texas-rig plastic worms bouncing off the bottom.

I think we only caught bass like this in the summer(?)

I have no idea how the bass located the worms, but we would keep fishing until the strikes ceased.

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Originally Posted by jpsdad
Originally Posted by esshup
I know this doesn't apply to a pond setting, i.e. it's hard to know the answer with fish in a pond where they they have natural food to eat, but is there a way to determine how much of the food the fish is actually utilizing and how much of the food (when I say food I mean nutrients in the food) is passing through the fish and is not digestible?

I'd like to offer some subtle improvements to this question. The conversion of anything a fish eats, whether it eats a formulated feed or natural prey item, is less than perfectly efficient. It requires energy to assimilate food and so some of the food is digested just to provide the energy. The waste product of this conversion to energy is not food that is not digestible. Instead the wastes are products of oxidation which is part of the digestion process. For protein, the products are primarily ammonia and carbon dioxide both of which are expelled as water soluble wastes. The better question is how much of the feed is assimilated because everything the fish doesn't retain leaves the fish.
Optimal folks have conducted many feed studies and are very solid with trials producing 1.15 to 1. Could we say that .15 is "leaving the fish"? would this be a safe assumption? I know it's not that simple but 1.15 to 1 leaves little unusable content unless eating-the process of.. uses "X" energy regardless forage/feed present.

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1.15 to 1 conversion rate is remarkable. However, in a natural pond setting that does not mean that only .15 of the feed leaves the fish. After all, they eat bugs & fish along with the pelleted feed, so gain weight from that as well. True conversion rate can only be determined by artificial situation where fish only eat the pellets.

If true conversion rate really is 1.15 to 1, that's by far the best number I've ever come across.


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Originally Posted by Snipe
Optimal folks have conducted many feed studies and are very solid with trials producing 1.15 to 1. Could we say that .15 is "leaving the fish"? would this be a safe assumption? I know it's not that simple but 1.15 to 1 leaves little unusable content unless eating-the process of.. uses "X" energy regardless forage/feed present.

Kenny, this is wrong on a couple of levels but first is the one where you have been unable to repeat their results in single pass tests with YP and BG. I'm not saying they didn't get 1.15 to 1 but we do not have context. Perhaps this is with the fry food with fry to fingerling sized fish which have high growth rates and feed low on the feed chain even able to re-consume waste feed and gain. There are several in pond studies which findings indicate that feed begins to benefit the growth of BG once a length of 4" or greater is attained. Growth of YOY year BG was otherwise not statistically different and the same goes for the energy content of YOY (something which suggests they have similar nutrient profiles). Furthermore, in pond FCRs regularly are below 1 when growing fry to fingerlings (eg CC fingerlings on 35% feed). This is not the case when growing juvenile and adult fish. This is primarily because they don't have as high a specific consumption ... something which greatly reduces feed efficiency.

Feed is relatively dry with "as fed" water content somewhere around 10%. BG water content is 7.5 to 8.2 times that of feed. Since the water comes from the pond, it doesn't come from the feed. In order to understand the retention of nutrients one must understand the dry weight conversion (dry/dry). So even at 1 to 1 with the generous assumption that BG are 75% water the FCR is 3.6 to 1. But this doesn't really tells us the nutrients entering the pond. To understand this we need to understand the nutrient profile of the feed and the nutrient profile of the fish. Fish vary but the dry weight of BG is about ~72% protein. Assuming a fry feed at 48% and assuming 10% water out of bag for the feed, the protein assimilation efficiency of feed in the dry weight of the fish would be around 41.66%. Lots of ifs there and I have some ocean front property in Arizona for any willing to buy that this example will happen on a broad scale in his pond. Conversions on the order of 1 (dry/wet) result by secondary utilization of 1st pass nutrients. The good news is that feed waste nutrients will work their way up the food chain and put weight on fish, in some cases (like fry) even waste feed will be consumed and additional gain made. The bad news is that one can't rely on all the rosiest assumptions for his pond. The first pass will be much less efficient in the larger fish eating it and unlike water managed for the production of food fish, there will competition for waste nutrients by macrophytes which do not participate meaningfully to a BG's food chain.

The inefficiencies of conversion applies to everything any animal eats. A general rule of thumb is that each consumer trophic level requires 10 fold from the trophic level below. With feed it is more along the lines of 5 fold (dry/dry). If the fish feed were as nutritious as natural foods, this number would probably be much closer to 2.5 where one is eliminating the need to chase down prey and replacing it with the most lower energy expenditure of competing for feed. So a food made from 100% fish meal is probably around twice as efficient as the feed you are buying. Yet even if you feed 100% fish meal feed more than half of the nutrients would still exit the fish.


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Makes my head hurt.

Think I will just keep feeding for the fun of it rather than performance.

Just got home yesterday after being gone for three and a half months. Drove the 4-wheeler around the pond once (amongst the three foot tall grass on the dam that needed mowed a month ago) and fish wakes coming toward the shore. They have not forgot what the dinner bell is. Guess I need to get some feed bought. At least the fish think I do.


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Originally Posted by snrub
Just got home yesterday after being gone for three and a half months. Drove the 4-wheeler around the pond once (amongst the three foot tall grass on the dam that needed mowed a month ago) and fish wakes coming toward the shore. They have not forgot what the dinner bell is. Guess I need to get some feed bought. At least the fish think I do.

Glad to hear you made it back safe and sound!

Have fun feeding your hungry fishes. (I suspect you will not be able to resist them "begging" you for food!)

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What’s next for Optimal? Any major changes on the horizons or any technological advancements to improve the products? Your bg feeds are what I prefer these days with the style of feeding I’m doing and they seem to be working great, just wondering what’s in the future, if anything.

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I've been using Optimal for a few years now. At first, one of the main reasons was ease of ordering from Hoosier Pond Pro's website, but since then, I've had pleasing results. I'm feeding Handthrow and Bass and have just ordered some of the 4.5mm random lengths.

Years ago, on advice from a friend, I would soak all the Handthrow (and AQ Largemouth) for about 10 minutes before feeding. Eventually, I stopped the pre-soak process. Over the course of a year, I felt I lost a lot of LMB participation in feeding on those 1" pellets.

I've gone back to pre-soaking now, and am going to do that for all the feed sizes I use.

I'm also on the cusp of incorporating sinking feed.

So, questions for Optimal are: 1) Do you feel the pre-soaking or 'hydrating' of feed is worth the effort? And 2) As a general rule, is sinking feed at all more 'healthy' for our fish?

Appreciate you guys!!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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I love Optimal Handthrow, as do my LMB & HSB. Giant BG try but can't take it in. Haven't tried soaking but maybe that would help when temps are very hot or very cold.

To echo Sunil, I wish Optimal would come out with a 50/50 floating/sinking feed. Fewer carbs & fat in sinking means healthier, right? Geese would steal less food, herons get fewer opportunities to target surface feeding fish.

I realize this might mean a bit more cost per pound, as protein is more expensive than carbs & fat, but think many pondowners would respond positively.

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Originally Posted by anthropic
1.15 to 1 conversion rate is remarkable. However, in a natural pond setting that does not mean that only .15 of the feed leaves the fish. After all, they eat bugs & fish along with the pelleted feed, so gain weight from that as well. True conversion rate can only be determined by artificial situation where fish only eat the pellets.

If true conversion rate really is 1.15 to 1, that's by far the best number I've ever come across.
Actually, Purina (and Bob Lusk)says 1.2 to 1 is very common, so I have no issues with 1.15 to 1. Now, fish free swimming in a pond vs caged can be 2 different things. Biomass of fish can change that as more fish means more competition and the most aggressive will grow way faster than normal
In my own trial I seen 1.43 to 1 but had I ran it longer I may have seen better results.
I have 4 trials I'm doing on my own for my own reasons right now, and on Saturday I finished my 11th bag of feed so far this year.
Some of these conversations about feeding have become competitive on so many levels it's almost confusing, and, there is argument that whatever feed you use is wrong and yet positive results are obtained.
Bottom line is if your fish eat it, are constantly above 100% WR, you've got a good combination of feed/pond organisms that will 99.9% of the time, meet your desires.
Several folks have helped me in many ways here on this forum but some of this has got to a point I don't want to participate anymore, not that I can provide the most useful information to anyone except those in the same locations/environment I have experience in, but the competitive nature of this has become uncomfortable and somewhat useless to what I believe most are here for.

Billy Bates: I just received some new production Optimal today that was just finished and bagged 5 days ago per Mark. Sounds like some lines are being tweaked a bit and will be back in stock shortly.

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"Bottom line is if your fish eat it, are constantly above 100% WR, you've got a good combination of feed/pond organisms that will 99.9% of the time, meet your desires.
Several folks have helped me in many ways here on this forum but some of this has got to a point I don't want to participate anymore, not that I can provide the most useful information to anyone except those in the same locations/environment I have experience in, but the competitive nature of this has become uncomfortable and somewhat useless to what I believe most are here for."


Yeah, this is unfortunate, Kenny, but rest assured knowing that your contributions of knowledge and experience to the Forum are very valuable.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted by snrub
Makes my head hurt.

Think I will just keep feeding for the fun of it rather than performance.

Just got home yesterday after being gone for three and a half months. Drove the 4-wheeler around the pond once (amongst the three foot tall grass on the dam that needed mowed a month ago) and fish wakes coming toward the shore. They have not forgot what the dinner bell is. Guess I need to get some feed bought. At least the fish think I do.


Feeding fish is fun!
I never thought I would get so much enjoyment out of it, the quite time right before dark or early in the morning just standing still flinging fish pellets out over the water and watching them eat it up.
It's almost therapeutic for me, I keep a bag of fish food in the car and stop by the pond before or after work four or five days a week if I can and just unwind as I feed them. Fun to see the fish and help them get fatter and I get to chill out.

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