Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Building a dam Methods for dozing a pond

Are there any secrets to pushing dirt with a dozer when building a pond that make it a more effecient or better process or should you just dip the blade and start pushing as much dirt as possible in whatever method that seems the easiest?

Mercury,

My hands-on experience on a dozer is now two years and I categorically disagree with the above post that recommends you start with "bigger and better".

I had the help of one of the top, if not the top, dozer operators in East Texas in getting started and I am still learning, every time I get on my machine. He told me to start with a small machine and that is by far the best advice he gave me. Some advice he failed to mention, because it was second knowledge to him. For example:

When I looked at a dozer I thought "that has to be the safest thing you can be on"....wrong. I hadn't operated it for half a day before I split my head wide open. A dozer is completely different from a tractor. It is effectively "one piece" meaning when it goes over something and the CG (center of gravity) crosses then the machine moves rapidly as one unit. I crossed over a log no larger than 4 inches in diameter and the dozer fell forward hurling me into the structure. A larger dozer would have killed me on the spot. As it was, I learned a painful bloody lesson. A dozer must be used with caution, especially when you are first starting. Seat belts on a machine that crawls are required, mandatory. It may cost you your life without them.

As far as blade techniques, I'm still learning. The most difficult thing for me was to keep a smooth push going...my first attempts were like a wash board. I'm much better now but still learning. I have gotten very adept at placing the blade exactly where I want it...I can pick off a small yaupon bush within 1 inch of a tree trunk, but still have trouble with a level dirt push. The important thing to learn is to not try to take too much dirt off at a time. I had a tendency to lower the blade and it would dig in too deep and then have to raise it and then lower it...you get the picture I hope. Take small bites and it works better.

I would like to encourage you to try it. Please do not take my words as trying to scare you...far from it. I love being on the dozer. It is honestly one of the most fun things I have ever done. I just hope you will do it safely, start small, and take nothing for granted when you are on that machine. It is nothing like a tractor. Good digging to you!

I guess what I am trying to ask is should an operator figure out the desired dimensions of the pond and start shaving off small depths of dirt with long pushes to the dams or should you just start digging down from the middle and just keep pushing the dirt out (creating a funneling effect)? Are there secrets for sealing off a tank (besides lining it with clay,liner,bentonite)- should you run your tracks thoroughly over all surfaces before loading up and leaving? Any and all secrets and suggestions will be appreciated. I know this is a vague question but throw some input out there and I will hopefully learn a thing or two.

Okay, the first thing to do is clear the surface of the top soil and any vegetation. That is best accomplished, I believe by long pushes, moving the material to the side for later use. Then you dig the core and pack the dam. Yes, constantly running the dozer tracks back and forth over the dam to compact the soil as you go....only adding a couple of inches and then compacting and adding soil and compacting...make sure the clay has some mositure in it to help packing.

Good clay is required at the site...without it, you will spend possibly a lot of money and still have a leaking pond. Hope this helps.

Hey Mercury, to add to what ML said, heavy (and light) equipment will kill you and never shed a tear. You sometimes don't get the chance to say "Now, why didn't I?"

Mercury,

Are there secrets to pushing dirt with a dozer to make the process more efficient or better. Techniques and tools might be a better way to answer this.


Not in my wildest nightmare could I remotely call myself an operator of heavy equipment, so take these comments with this in mind. Given enough time, patience and $$$$ I could build my dream pond with my little dozer. Minus the $$$$, I could accomplish the same with a just a shovel. A dozer is a tool. Different tools accompany different tasks. Go to any heavy equipment manufacturer's web site and look at the variety of dozers available. (I need a dribble bib when I visit those sites).

A dozer will push dirt but there is a point of diminishing returns. The boys over on ACMOC or ACME.org will tell you this. If you want to "push" dirt a long distance, trench dozing is one efficient way to accomplish this. If you want to "move" dirt, the most efficient way, for me, is to have a contractor show up with an excavator and dump truck. He moved 1000 yards of dirt in one day. I couldn't even begin to tell you how long it would of taken me to accomplish what he did.

If you have the time, patience and $$$$ you'll learn the "techniques" to pushing dirt with a dozer. I think you'll agree that no matter how old we get, Tonka Toy envy stays with us. They have just gotten bigger and more costly. Now go play in the dirt!

ML, one of the first "cautions" the previous owner of my dozer told me involved obstacles. When going over an obstacle, always lower the blade. Seesaw physics can be deadly on a dozer.

Russ, Yes and I have the scars to prove it!

Mercury,
Welcome to the show! As a newbie to this pond thing, I also considered equipment purchases and DIY. Ultimately, I paid da man and don't regret the decision. I have now had the chance to watch a backhoe and dozer perform the "heavy equipment ballet" as they groomed my project. I cannot for the life of me imagine not only the expense of purchase (and maintainence!) of this type of equipment, but maybe more...the time required to execute the work. ML and Russ touched briefly on this same subject in the thread: New pond, old question... Make no mistake, tho...I truly respect the entrepeneur that does go ahead and DIY with a his own equipment.

Merc,
I've attached a photo that was taken in 2002 of myself attempting to help the Contractor build our livestock pond. (I'll operate the dozer and he operates the scraper). As mentioned by others earlier, a dozer is a great piece of equipment when in the right hands. I might also add that in the wrong hands (myself), it can be a dangerous and an expensive lesson. This D-6 was easily removed by a competent operator, but at the time it scared me!
My friendly Operator was a "magician" with heavy equipment and informed me in a polite way that he charged $85 per hour for his services or, $185 per hour if I helped!

Anymore I stick to operating farm tractors, lawn mowers and hand scisors.

[img]http://www.redsplash.com/ims/pic.php?u=2728E8VpV&i=28349[/img]

Be careful,
Ed

Ed,

Thats some pretty expensive "structure" you've got planted there.


Russ

Thank you for posting that picture, Ed. It is well worth a thousand word safety lecture.

Thanks for shocking me back into reality re: considering DIY on heavy machinery.

OOOOhhhhhh!!! Pick Me !!!!!!
This machine was brand a$$ new!

Meadowlark,
On a big dozer a 4" log would be a squishy bump.
The small dozers buck worse and are a little harder to run. They don't get stuck as bad and that could be a big plus.
Mercury,
I'd suggest starting on a outside edge when you start digging. Take it down 3 or 4 feet. If you see in the slope any seams of gravel or material you don't like, dig out the bad spot now and pack good material back in. Pack in the rest of the slope if you care to. Dress this slope up and call it done. Now go down another 3 or 4 feet and do the same thing matching this slope into the part above that you have already "finished".
Do the same thing to both sides and when you get down to where you want to be the sides are done.
I like to keep it lower towards the dam so I'm loading the blade going downhill a little. Don't end up getting lower in the back and have to try to load the blade going uphill.
The 2 basic dozing techniques are slot pushing and cornering. Slot pushing works better in looser materials the tend to "run" off the sides of the blade. Just keep working down in the same track letting the windrows build up on each side to hold in the dirt. Cornering start on one side and dig down about a quarter of a dozer blade deep. Then stay at this depth and corner into this ledge taking a narrow cut with the side of the blade. Most operators work from right to left.
Hey Jersey, did that cost extra?

Zhkent, thanks for posting. What you call "slot" dozing is what I meant by "trench" dozing. Thanks for the clarification.

Here are some sites that contain lots of information on dozers(main focus on older machines)and dozing techniques.

http://www.acmoc.org
antique caterpillar machinery owners club

http://www.antiquecaterpillar.org
antique caterpillar machinery enthusiasts

http://www.IBDozing.com


All links worked for me so if anyone has any problems, just do a search. Enjoy.


Russ

zhkent,

Excellent post. Wish you were around here to provide hands-on instruction. Great operators aren't necessarily great teachers and you sound like both.

Would it be asking too much for you to post your thoughts on size of dozer for various tasks? I've found my 450 to be excellent at general ranch work and pond repair/renovation but very slow for building a pond much beyond 1 acre. This info might help Mercury and future purchasers of dozers.

However, I'm still of the opinion that for a DIY just starting out person, it is better to start with a relatively small dozer....and a top flight teacher. Thanks.

Meadowlark,
I remember a big pond, it's been awhile but it was maybe 3 acres. The pond is by Coffeyville Ks. The cat skinner I was helping said it was built in the depression with people, shovels, and wheel barrows.
There are a lot of ponds that were built with horses and slips also.
Compared to that any size dozer looks great and it proves what can be done with even a small dozer and time. On a bigger dig it can be "very slow" like you said. And if anyone tries digging an acre pond with a 450 they may find that is an understatement.
I will use the cat sizes as I am most familiar with them.
The D3 is an awesome little dozer. With time you can do a good size hole. It has great flotation also, good for mud, won't pack dirt easily.
The D5 is also a great tractor. There is more than 1 professional excavator that makes a living with them. An acre hole you'd have to take a lunch, and anything bigger you'll be camping there.
The D8 was, and probably still is the most prolific dirt moving machine for moving dirt.
My favorite right now is my D9G. It has a semi U blade rated at 17 cu. yds.. That's a semi load of dirt a push in perfect conditions. The brand new D9's only have me beat by 15 hp. Flotation is not great. Compaction is easy to get.
The D6 and D7 are good all purpose machines, big compared to the D3 size.
Probably the most important thing is to buy a machine that will stay running.
If a final drive, motor, or transmission goes out on a larger dozer it's a lot of money. It can be as expensive as the purchase of a dozer, but it probably won't increase the value of the machine very much.
The dozer size that suits one guy wouldn't necessarily be right for another.
I have a very large dozer so I can move a lot of dirt when I need to in a short amount of time, to make a living and still have time for family.

zhkent,

Great info...just great. I don't know about Mercury but your posts are really helpful.

I have renovated an old 1/4 acre pond into a 2 acre bass pond with my 450....and it took awhile and lots of patience and some repairs.

You used a term flotation and of course I know what that means in the general sense but as applied to dozers are you talking about the getting stuck factor or something else? Thanks again for your responses...you've got me to thinking about a larger machine because I've still got several ponds yet to build in my lifetime (hopefully). Thanks again for your responses.

Here's my story. I begged my dad to buy a dozer, he bought a small Komatsu that didn't do much and was hard to get anything done with. Then he found what he was really wanting to buy--an old D6. I still got a lot of nothing done. I learned that no matter how long I thought about it when I started I would change my gameplan. The biggest problem was our dirt was dry and hard. The second biggest problem was lack of knowledge about the dozer. I tightened the clutch and it helped a lot and then it rained and it helped even more. I also discovered that different soils push differently.
My opinion is to just go out and do it. I have learned to operate the beast a lot better but think I will still improve on knowing what I can and can't do. Slopes wanting to steer for me is aggrevating.
We still have the little guy and it works good to clean out muck and doze out ceders. It's also moveable with a regular truck and trailer.
Thanks for the pictures of stuck equipment. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one.

zhkent,

Could I impose on you for one more request? Promise I won't ask for more.

Could you please provide a similar summary of sizes vs tasks for track-hoes?

As I said, I've got several ponds on my wish list, and am thinking of investing $30k to $40k in track-hoe which would be resold (immediately) after pond(s) completion. Your comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Meadowlark,
Be glad to answer any question if I can.
I'm referring to flotation as ground preasure, normaly measured in psi, Pounds per Square Inch.
A lady's spiked high heel has a very high psi, small surface. A snow shoe would have a very low psi.
So a dozer with high flotation can work on softer earth without sinking in. While none of the dozers can work in the wet silt of a pond without sinking through it, a high psi low flotation dozer probably will start sinking into the moist clay under the silt where a low psi machine probably would not.
I can share at least one simple fact about excavators. The size designation number on later machines relates to the weight of the machine.
On most brands it's the first 2 numbers, on cats it's the second 2.
Examples Komatsu 300 is 30 metric tons, Komatsu 250 is 25 metric tons, Komatsu 200 is 20 metric tons, Komatsu 150 is 15 metric tons. A Cat 330 is 30 metric tons, a Cat 325 is 25 metric tons, a Cat 320 is 20 metric tons.
Seems like my Cat 330 weighs 74,000 lbs. which should come out around 30 metric tons.
I don't use my excavator as much as a lot of contractors. If I can doze or haul with a scraper the dirt from the cut to the dam and pack the dirt in with the machine I am doing it with, I can do it with one person. If I use the excavator the material has to be pushed, or loaded onto trucks and hauled, and then leveled and packed. It cost me more to move and process the dirt than the other way. If the dozer and scraper were smaller the cost would be closer to balancing.
The good part about excavators is that they move dirt cheaper and with less fuel than about any other machine. The bad part is they can only move it 40 feet or so. Long reach excavators can reach further at the expense of not being able to move as much quantity each cycle.

Thanks a bunch Kent. I promised not to ask more questions but since you said it was okay...

Can I reasonably expect to find a 30 ton unit in servicable condition for the price mentioned?

ML,

To give you an idea of equipment prices, have a look at http://www.machinerytrader.com

Meadowlark,Why don't you just rent a trak hoe? I rented a 320 cat with 200 hours on it last week for 1700 per week or 40 hours.I used app 200 gals of fuel. You would not believe how much dirt those things can move.They delivered it 50 miles for 90 bucks each way.Very simple to operate,just don't get to close to the hole.Biggest problem is getting rid of the dirt like Kent says.

$90 bucks each way? That is a bargain. Around here the minimum charge is about $400 in/out total.

Renting may be the way to go. The track-hoe portion of the work can be compressed into specific time slots(multiple ponds). I need to crunch some numbers and try to determine the total track-hoe time and the number and lengths of the time slots. Then I can do a rent vs purchase trade study.

Good point, but would still be interested in any purchase cost and resale data that anyone has. The track-hoes do seem to hold value very well over a years time frame and also seem to be much less of a maintenance risk than dozers. At least, that is what I've been told. Thanks.