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Wow Jersey. I did not need a COE permit for my pond, but (possibly) would for the biggee I plan for the future...we'll see.

I work in the enviro. field and have a few thoughts, similar to Svoberts'.

Navigability is a wide-open question. Have you had anyone (or done it yourself) research the average year-round flow on this stream? If it is really as small as you claim, you might consider doing this research and doing the calculations to determine how much "flow" you would be affecting. On top of this, obtain satellite photos and/or topo maps of the area, to prove no wetlands are involved. NRCS office can certify this part of the claim.

Now...here's where I always begin, if possible, in any permitting process. Go for the exemption. Don't ask for one, but in a nicely worded business letter, state your claim for exemption, and why it's valid.

Put this all together (keep a copy) and send it to the director of your regional office of the ACOE, not to the gal you originally spoke to. This director will put it with whomever needs to review it. Keep your original meeting with this gal out of it.

Put the ball in their court. This will make them provide a certifiable reason...chapter and section...as to why your exemption is not valid, if this is the case. No one person in any governmental body has authority to deny anything just because of their position. They must have a defensible reason.

They may, in fact, be able to deny your permit. However, in doing so, they must point to the section of code that invalidates your claim. You might have to have a lawyer actually read the section they reference to decipher if it's valid...but that's later.

Remember, these people have no incentive to quickly do anything...they just have to get it right even if it takes forever. I would add a section to the letter similar to "...barring timely response from ACoE, this project is scheduled to commence on XX/01/2006...". Give them plenty of time to respond...3-6 months or so. Send it certified and then at least you can show you interpreted the law one way, and gave them the chance to prove you wrong.

Long winded...but it's the gubment we're talking about.


In a lifetime, the average driver will honk 15,250 times. My wife figures I'm due to die any day now...



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" If you put the Federal Government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there would be a shortage of sand"

Milton Friedman


Mistakes are proof that you are trying.


Dan
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You have to go through the CORE for ANY pond or lake you build now! No matter the size.

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I disagree, big_pond. I can think of several cases where you don't. But I would carefully research whether or not any individual project falls under their jurisdiction.


Shawn

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Well here in Georgia you have to have a 404 permit for ANY pond, unless it is for farm use.....Trust me I have been there three times already for three different lakes we have built.

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And the definition of "farm use" is very narrow. Growing things and having farm animals isn't enough to cut it.


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Robinson, you bring up a great point. I lived in Savannah, GA for a while and a friend of mine was a Colonel Full Bird at the Savannah USACE office. Unfortunately, that was 5 years ago and he has moved on. I remember the water issues on the coast, and I remember how the whole state was on water restrictions during my time there. Even though the USACE is a federal agency, I'm sure they are influenced by regional "sensitivites" such as water shortages. My job at a water trucking company (oilfield) I have had to research water rights in several areas. In North Dakota, there are very few restrictions for drawing water. Just a few miles away in Montana, we had to go through a lengthy process to get a water permit, and it is tightly controlled. In Colorado, the value of a piece of property can vary greatly on how many water rights it has (you can have a half a right, one right, two rights, etc.) In a "green" state like California, I bet it is nearly impossible. I live in Oklahoma, a farm and ranch state and highly erosionable, so ponds are easily built, sometimes even encouraged to prevent erosion. Which brings us back 5 or six pages into this thread, that to do a comprehensive article on pond building to include the 404 permits is a daunting task. State regulations and interpretations of Federal regs vary greatly and sometimes may boil down to what kind of day the engineer you are talking to has had. But I have greatly enjoyed this thread and plan to look further into it with my local USACE office and I will post my results, just as soon as I see the light at the end of the tunnel!


Shawn

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There is no question that water is an issue here in the Atlanta area. My property is about 35 miles east of the city, and my creek is fed from a spring that emerges about 1/2 mile from me, on my neighbors property. The creek empties into a big creek about a mile downstream from me, then into a big lake, and eventually on to the Gulf. I have to ask myself how holding 25 acre-feet of water on my property would affect the water problems in Atlanta.

But I certainly agree that different Corps districts have their own priorities. And I agree even more that it matters who you ask and what kind of mood they are in that day.

I have contacted my congressman and he is asking a corps engineer in DC what the formal policy is on situations like mine. We agreed to start with general questions and work our way to my specific problem. I'll keep the forum posted on how this goes.


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That's a tough question. I can tell you that you can take a big step across it, about 4', and it's about 3 inches deep. There isn't a lot of fall on my property, about 13' over 1000'. Maybe 100 gallons / minute? Just a WAG.


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Robinson, I wish you were right because then I would know why. I was told "NO, you cannot build a pond" before we ever discussed where I was building it, whether it was on a creek or not, whether there was a wetland involved, or any of these trivial details. When I pointed this out to the Corps engineer, I was told that I could go ahead and submit the 404 application, but that it would be denied because "we are discouraging people from building ponds". Then they explained to me how mitigation works. $150,000 is how mitigation works. So I said - Why don't you just say NO? They replied, "We did."


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Mr. Robinson
I have had quite a bit of experiance in building ponds in this state and I can tell you The Atlanta city area has NOTHING to do with it. Jersey in the Walton County area in town called gues what "Jersey". Any way I am 70 miles out side of the Atlanta city area, 30 miles further out from him. Now before I had this 140 acre tract I have now. I had to go WAY! WAY! out almost 200 miles or more to find property because the propert values where Me and Jersey are now was going up so fast. I could not afford land in these areas, but I wanted that 8 to 10 acre lake REALY BAD!!! It was an all out QUEST for this lake!!!! But to make a long story short, I have litterly been ALL over the state looking for 10 acre and up lake sites. Have Peresently have a family member who is bulding two HUGE 20 and 50 acre lakes in South Georgia. He had to go through the exact same hoops I had to go through....In fact he got the farm exemption for his. I am looking at more lake sights in middle Georgia and it is STILL the same story. So I don't think growth or water shortages has really anything to do with it.

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Shoot with growth comes $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ \:D ...yeah Jersey is in a sensitive area I am a little more over looked because I am 30 minutes from him..

I don't care what!!! I will take 40% appretiation first and fore most before anything....the pond would have to come later... ;\)

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Cool those remarks...Texans prefer "Oil Wells" first \:\) Especially at $60 per barrel ;\)

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I wouldn't need a permit from the Corps if I was drilling an oil well. I figure with the property values going up like they are and with the problem building ponds around here, if I can get this pond built, the water will be worth as much as oil!


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That is VERY true Jersey...With a lake on the property the land is worth 2 to 3 times as much with out a lake or pond..

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I spoke with my friend that was in the USACE a few years back. Unfortunatly, he never dealt with the 404 side.

I also looked very briefly at the USDA book on building ponds, I didn't see 404 permits mentioned there, either, just a brief comment on checking local regs.


Shawn

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My local (county) gov't says to just bring them my corps permit and they will give me their OK.

I think I have a solution, but I just can't make it public yet. Stay tuned because you'll really like this story. ;\)


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Well the next issue Mike Ott will be talking about the Dreaded 404 Program!!! He could spend 2 to 3 issues on this subject alone!! I hope someone from the magazine talks with an official ACOE person and get the REAL story behind this....There is to much hear-say on this IMPORTANT subject.

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Mike, I am guessing the article is already written, but if you will PM me, I'll let you in on what's up.


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Jersey,

Can you give us any updates on your pond situation yet??

Russ

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Russ, It's just killing me that I can't go into what's up. I can only say that things are progressing very nicely in my favor. The reason that I don't want to make this public is that I don't know who reads this board. There are some people who could cause me headaches if they knew the path that I'm on, and I can't take the chance. I don't mean to sound cryptic, and I hope y'all understand.

What I will say is that what I am working on will be very good news for anyone who is thinking about legally building a pond.


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We appreciate you not telling us if you'd have to kill us afterward. ;\)


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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Now that's funny! \:D \:D \:D
ROTFLMAO


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Jersey,

I'm about to start the permitting process myself. Any new developements?



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Be ready for a FIGHT!!! \:D \:D

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