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Hello!
First I want to thank Bob Lusk and his team for helping me setup my account here! Extremely helpful.
My dad has a pond on his property. The native soil is primarily red clay due to the high iron content, with varying clay layers as you dig deeper. He doesn't have the time or the energy to deal with it, and I hate seeing him spend a fortune hiring contractors so I do as much as I can for him. I decided to take on the pond project. We started by drying it out over the summer.
Details about pond- Base of the pond is roughly 60'X60' and the berm is probably 15+ feet high. It's fed by county irrigation water at 24,000 gallons/day. There has always been some degree of water loss and it never fills up to the max at the outlet. We'd love to have it fill all the way and keep it when the water is off 6 months of the year. It never drains completely during that time, but probably loses at least half.
Took a long time with hand tools, but I removed all the organic sediment that had built up over several decades. I didn’t dredge the entire pond up the walls, but did the whole basin. I'm hoping removing the pine needles will help the clay seal better since it looked like the needles could have created a natural sieve. We considered compacting the clay, but the cost to rent a sheepsfoot roller would have been almost as much as a liner. Since compacting doesn't seem like a guaranteed solution, I'll probably just line it if we feel compelled in the future.
Would like to hear some opinions from experienced folks. Very open to tips. Photo one is when I started raking it out. 2 is just after turning the water on, photo 3 is after 12 hours or so. Thank you!
Jesse

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Last edited by JesseJames87; 04/22/22 09:56 PM.
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Welcome to the forum. Your pond seems like a perfect candidate for the 2 part polymer products to seal a pond. Send teehjaeh57 a private message about it and I'm sure he can help you.


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Jesse,

That looks like a beautiful spot for your pond!

A 60'x60' pond is about .08 acres. 24,000 gallons of water should raise your pond level by 10.5". You definitely have a significant leak.

Did you guys build the pond, or was it there when you bought the property? The reason I ask, is that a small pond in good clay SHOULD NOT leak that much.

One potential culprit for your leak is where the water supply pipe comes in through the berm. It is difficult to perfectly compact hard red clay back in around a pipe after it is installed in a pond wall or dam. The common solution is to install one or two anti-seep collars.

When the pond reaches its maximum level and you are putting in water every day, you should be able to walk around the pond and find some evidence of a leak. Damp ground or maybe just a patch of robust looking plants might be all that you can observe. However, look closely around the area of your water supply pipe to see if that is the source of your leak.

The collection of recent pine needles in the pond should not contribute to a leak. However, if there were pine needles mixed with the clay during the original construction of the pond, then you are correct - that could lead to a leak. When the pine needles decayed they could have left a pathway for water to migrate through your berm.

Do you guys have access to even light equipment? If the problem is just a poor seal after the initial construction, then you MIGHT be able to seal it by ripping the clay with a box blade on a tractor, then wetting the clay, and then re-compacting with an affordable plate-type or jumping jack type of compactor.

esshup's comment above to consult with TJ is always excellent advice. TJ is very helpful and has assisted lots of people in getting their ponds sealed.

Good luck on your project!

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Jesse there a water budget you need to consider. It looked from the pics that there is no water other than irrigation water going in. You need sufficient water to fill the pond and then there after sufficient water to cover evaporation and filtration.

Have you measured the water rate coming through the pipe to confirm the rate of 24,000 gallons/day?

Do you know the average pan evaporation rates for your location and how this varies (min and highs)? This data is sometimes available by month by year from state agencies that track it with a network of pans.

Was the location a clearing in the trees? Odd as this may sound trees form an underground network that is connected through fungi. Water, nutrients, energy are all transported via this network. Even a tree that have been cut down can live decades afterwards being supported by the nutrients flowing through this system. These fallen trees are not free-loaders. Their roots transport water and local nutrients through the system. As long as they contribute, they are cared for. If this is happening at your location, these roots are located in a very cherry spot for water. Part of the loss could be uptake by the trees.

Some clay soils are permeable and even those that compact well can leak if not compacted well. Clay soils that are permeable tend to form nodules and are kind of granular. Lots of great wheat country is in this type of soil in OK. The soil has structure aiding water's ability to move in it. This can be combatted by adding sodium to the soil. This disperses the clays and makes them more pliable (plastic properties). They will compact effectively after treatment. Salt and Sodium Carbonate are the two preferred materials for this kind of treatment. Salt may also help to make water unavailable to tree roots. Sodium can very adversely affect a plant's ability to take up water. Below are couple of links that I think could help you.

How to:

https://extension.missouri.edu/publications/g1555

A google search:

https://www.google.com/search?q=tre...EEMjYuN5gBAKABAbABCg&sclient=gws-wiz

Last edited by jpsdad; 04/23/22 02:54 PM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Thank you, I will read up on the product!

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Thank you for the great advice! The pond was already there when my dad bought it. It's in gold country near the 2 biggest gold mines during the gold rush(empire state and idaho maryland), so I don't know if it was used for mining purposes or strictly agriculture, but we've been told the ponderosa pines that grow directly on the berm look to be at least 100 years old. It seems like it was dug out at some point below ground level and the fill used to create the berm.
The seal issue at the pipe makes a lot of sense, however the water lever never gets more than 4-5 feet below it. It isn't obvious from the photos, but there is clay bottom irrigation canal that runs perpendicular to angle of the photo. The pipe runs from a screened box in this canal.

There is an area that seems more prone to seepage, but I can't be 100%. The only evidence of this is a large patch of blackberries growing under a few walnut trees. We don't irrigate any of these trees ever, so that could be another indication of pond water runoff, but I have no idea how deep the water table is and whether or not they could be getting the required water from it instead.

We have access to light equipment, just need to rent it. I'd like to invest in a backhoe or excavator when the time comes, but funds don't allow for it currently. I drove the gator around the pond after I cleared it out, but I doubt that did much. I did consider using a plate compactor or something similair, but maybe assumed wrong that it would be ineffective for that purpose.

I'll make sure to watch it closely this summer and try to figure out where the leak(s) is/are.

Jesse

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Originally Posted by JesseJames87
Thank you for the great advice! The pond was already there when my dad bought it. It's in gold country near the 2 biggest gold mines during the gold rush(empire state and idaho maryland)

With a little bit of luck, you might be the first person on Pond Boss to actually MAKE money while mucking out their pond! grin

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Thank you for your reply!
That is correct, that the water pipe is the only source. It's a 1.5" opening fed from a canal which is something like 11.8 gallons/minute, which works out to ~24,000 gallons/day. This runs constantly from mid April to mid October. You're absolutely right, there is definitely a considerable amount of loss through evaporation but we have never tried to figure out how much. I'll have to check the local pan rates. That is very helpful.

There are several very large(50'-100') pines and cedars directly on the berm and I'm sure they're are all tapped directly into the pond. There is also a walnut orchard flanking the pond with at least 30 cedars and various Christmas pines(old farm). There are trees everywhere though, at least 200 on the 5 acres. I was worried that when we dried the pond, we'd have a bunch of dead trees that would need to get cut down, but haven't had any die yet thankfully. Several large trees around the pond were cut by the previous owner and a few still actively grow new shoots. That's really interesting to think that these root systems could potentially be disturbing water to where it needs to go. After all it 8s irrigation water and that would be a very efficient delivery!

Thank you for the information on adding sodium, I'll have to research some and figure out if it would be something to consider for this situation. Definitely want to be good stewards and the pond is a valuable water source. In addition the ecologic aspects, wild fires are a constant threat and the pond provides an ideal source when the power fails and pumps stop working
It's great to get all this advice, thank you for reading and taking the time with yourinput.
Jesse

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Originally Posted by FishinRod
Originally Posted by JesseJames87
Thank you for the great advice! The pond was already there when my dad bought it. It's in gold country near the 2 biggest gold mines during the gold rush(empire state and idaho maryland)

With a little bit of luck, you might be the first person on Pond Boss to actually MAKE money while mucking out their pond! grin

I did make a few sweeps with the metal detector and wish I had taken the time to do more before we started filling it! I found a large lead ingot, and lots of rusty old iron. I'm sure there's gold there- if not within a few feet, definitely within a couple hundred 😀

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Your trees on the berm as so old, that some of the root systems may have died and decomposed.

It is difficult to destroy small water pathways like that with compaction alone.

Next time you plan on renting a small tractor for other work on the farm, you might consider draining and drying the pond a few weeks ahead of time. When you get the tractor on site, put the shanks down on a rented box blade (cheap) and rip the sides of your pond in a few directions.

Drive safely, and stay out of the bottom of the pond or any mucky places that will get you stuck. It doesn't sound as if the bottom of your pond is leaking, so just work the sides. IF the leaks are due to tree root invasion, then your leaks are most likely to be in the band from your seasonal high-water mark to just below your seasonal low-water mark. That is the portion you need to rip effectively. (This would be the time to spread any of the additives you choose - as described in the links above from jpsdad.)

After you have wiped out any of the existing water flow pathways, set your shanks back in the "up" position and use your box blade to contour your pond slopes back to where you want them.

Then lift your box blade and drive the tractor over your side slopes for some compaction. (Any weights you can safely add to the box blade and into the FEL would help for this step.)

A tractor provides a little compaction, but is designed to not get stuck so your large rear tires actually lessen the compaction of the tractor. Therefore, your tractor compaction might not be sufficient to re-seal the pond.

You might try filling the pond after that step to determine if the tractor compaction was sufficient. If not, then drain the pond again and try a portable compactor. There is an optimal moisture content for compacting clay, so you need to compact when your side slopes have only partially dried. (You might give them a light spraying of water to re-wet the top prior to compacting.)

P.S. Your eyes on the ground are much more accurate than distant friendly people on the internet. You must temper any advice with your actual observations.

My advice above is terrible advice IF your pond is built in sandy, permeable soil where they placed and compacted clay blankets to seal the pond. I don't believe that is the case, but you need to determine the best facts on the ground and then determine if the advice matches.

P.P.S. The tractor method described above is not that expensive, but is not guaranteed. Make sure you contact TJ. His method might be more cost-effective. Alternatively, the tractor method might stop 90% of your leaks and a subsequent application of TJ's product might stop the final 10%. There is no "perfect" advice, you just have to make your best effort and take those resulting improvements. If that is not enough, then you have to try another best effort.

Good luck getting your pond sealed so you can subsequently create the pond environment that your family would like!

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Thanks! Great thoughts! I never thought about the likely leaky place being between the high and low water marks, but as soon as you mentioned it... That makes a lot of sense. Also never considered the pathways that tree roots could provide for water, other than uptake.
I'll be much more diligent in trying to figure it out now, especially now that I've seen the bottom and know that it's just a flat clay surface. I'll need to clear as much organic material from the sides before the water creeps up, it's filling fast according to the photo my dad sent me. Almost to the first barrel on the floating "dock".
The tractor might be a worthwhile investment, but the sides of the pond are really steep, I'd worry about rolling over. I'm sure I can figure out a way to compensate for the grade. Could always use plywood in the pond and only go straight up as opposed to parallel.
I have a feeling we'll eventually need to do something like the polymer treatment to get it totally sealed, but unsure if thats the right move, since we don't know how that will effect the trees. If we do keep more water though, we could just have it over flow into the ground so maybe no difference at all as far as quantity of water getting to roots.
Thank you very much for taking the time to help and advise. You've given me some good things to think about.
Jesse

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Jesse,

With regard to salt I should probably rephrase what earlier said. Salt affects the ability of plant roots to take up water. Where you might incorporate such in your soil the salt will be mostly retained within the liner you would construct with it. Think 6" of salt treated soil where the salt changes soil properties through chemistry. The tree roots will not likely penetrate the layer very deeply but grow where the environment is more conducive to their function. Soil chemistry is the key and you should test to see if your soil will respond to this treatment before implementing.

In re-reading, you have several months of continuous water at 24,000 gallons and so their is plenty of water to overflow the pond. In fact far more than its volume and evaporation. If you are worried about a liner's sodium treatment on your trees ... just keep in mind that once the pond is overflowing the trees will get their water there where the soil isn't treated. Overflow can have its own set of problems like erosion for example. So monitor the overflow to be sure the running water isn't damaging you land. Ideally it would disappear into the soil not very far from where it exits the pond. If it doesn't you might want to make some arrangement to help it to do this. Erosion from overflow could be a problem regardless of how you stop the leak as overflow is (not) avoidable in a pond that holds water. If your pond is located over natural drainage (funnels water already) ... erosion isn't the problem but retaining the irrigation on your own property might be a problem for you..

For salt at the maximum recommended rate of 33 lbs/100 feet, you need 1200 lbs or a little less than $350. But you will have to incorporate into the soil by tilling. You should try to compact the best you can to prevent flow through which would leach your treatment. There are hand held compactors that are kind of like a jack hammer if you don't feel comfortable getting heavier equipment into the pond. This isn't what I really mean by compaction but what you wouldn't want to do is fill the pond while the pond soil has the consistency of freshly tilled garden. It is generally not recommended to compact this type of liner with sheepsfoot but to rather use wheeled compactors.

So many decisions. The easiest path is poly-acrylamide like what TJ markets. The only drawback I can see with that is the unknown of how much the trees are taking. PAM isn't going to inhibit access to the water by your trees so this might be worth considering. On the other hand, if you can determine that it isn't the trees but filtration then it would get you on path rather quickly and with much less effort.

Last edited by jpsdad; 04/26/22 07:22 PM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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One of the most common pieces of advice on Pond Boss is, "No trees on the dam!"

That mostly applies to newly constructed dams where small trees are starting to get established on the dam. People need to eliminate them before the tree roots start to damage the clay seal in the core trench of the dam.

You are obviously in a different situation, but the same principle applies.

There are also stories of people cutting down large trees on their dams and it makes their leaks worse. The living tree would only "thief" a small amount of water. However, once the tree roots decomposed there was an easy path for water to migrate through the dam.

Are there any trees adjacent to your pond that are going to be cut down to match the final design of the "plan" for the pond and the surrounding area? If so, and you are going to perform any mechanical work on the sides of your pond, you might consider cutting those trees down first, so they aren't working to pierce any good pond seal that your worked to create.

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Merry Christmas! I'm hoping updating this thread makes more sense than creating a new one. This summer/fall answered a lot of questions about the pond. I'll try to be as thorough and concise as I can. I had spent several days dredging the pond last spring. I believe a lot of the material I was removing was organic material like pine needles mixed with a non native grey clay layer(bentonite?) that was sitting on top of an old cracked and deteriorated liner. I remember this layer rolling up like sod, but it wasn't completely consistent and I'd estimate I only removed 4-6 cubic yards. It made a noticeable difference in how fast the pond filled/emptied. The pond stayed relatively low and was only about 6 feet at its deepest point after receiving 24,000+ gallons a day from april-october. The water was shut off mid October and the pond was completely empty by mid November which has never happened. It had supported a fish population for years... I also measured the flow rate which is definitely 24,000 gallons or more a day.
We've decided it makes sense to line the pond somehow. Still undecided on the best product. It seems like a traditional liner is prone to tearing and breaking down. I swim during the summer and don't want to worry about stepping on it and causing damage or replacing it in 10 years. We're thinking that whatever we end using to seal it, it makes sense to leave a portion of the basin top unlined so that the water seeps into the ground feeding the trees and continuing to flow(gravity fed) fresh water into it rather than equalizing when the water level reaches the input pipe. 18" seems like a good gap, but it's really hard to anticipate if that will achieve our goal of maximizing the depth without compromising water quality. The irrigation canal that feeds the pond is a service that is pretty expensive and only runs 6 months out of the year so we want to keep it flowing those months it's on.
I plan on using a string/water level to mark the circumference and keep the decided liner level consistent. If we go with a traditional liner, is it required to bury the entire thing to protect it from UV/punctures? What is the suitable trench depth/width for burying the edges?
My dad who owns the pond doesn't have the motivation or knowledge to do the job and is considering hiring a handyman who told him "he could do it". This guy is not a pond guy. It makes just as much sense for me to do it and save my dad thousands in labor costs. In my experience, especially in this area people commonly oversell therselves and misrepresent their skills/experience. Nothing against the handyman, but for all we know he has 0 experience doing ponds, and would be doing it for the money. I'm a professional rigger/carpenter with many years and certifications on heavy machinery. Not a pond guy either, but as detail oriented as anyone! I'd like to do it for my dad free of charge and make sure we get the best possible outcome. Money saved on labor can be used towards better materials available.
Thanks for any advice, I look forward to coming up with a solid plan that I can put into action in the next few months. Sorry for any repetition from my older posts, it's been a while laugh. Happy holidays!
Jesse

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Jesse:

If you do a liner, you can do it 100% of the way to the top and pump water out to water the trees. I'd recommend doing that vs. stopping short of the top. That way you have control over the water.

I agree with you; do it yourself than pay someone that has no experience in doing it. I feel you will be money ahead and you will do a better job because you are invested in doing a good job for your dad, it's not "just a job".

Look into the liner material from here. https://www.btlliners.com/aquaarmor It's a LOT lighter in weight than a typical 60 mil pond liner and is a lot tougher too. Being made in Oregon, it might save you some $$ in shipping costs too. They have installers scattered around the USA and the world, give them a call to see if there is anyone local or at the very least ask them if they can offer help over the phone or on-line.

A customer of mine installed one about 7 years ago in rocky ground in Arkansas. He has a pig population on the property too, and he installed it as a 20x20 or 20x30 pond for wildlife. All he did was bury the edge of the fabric and left the rest of the liner unburied. It is still leak free about 7 years later without any extra care on his part. He tried to remove all the rocks but said he couldn't get them all.


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Pond Boss magazine once devoted most of an issue to pond liners. It would be worth contacting them to get a copy of that info.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Thanks esshup,
I'll look into that liner. I also remember someone mentioning another option which is like a foam if I remember correctly. I need to re-read this thread. Luckily I don't have many rocks, and the pond is pretty much down to the clay so that should help with the longevity of the liner. We are going to put in a pump at some point so we can get off the well for irrigation, but that's going to be expensive and might have to wait. I'll need to give it some thought because I like the idea of passive irrigation for the large pines and cedars, plus less electricity needed. Might also consider some kind of drain with a ball valve.

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Originally Posted by Dave Davidson1
Pond Boss magazine once devoted most of an issue to pond liners. It would be worth contacting them to get a copy of that info.
I can use any resources available, I'll reach out to them. Thank you.


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